Highways in Canada

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario has some major widening plans for the 401 in the Oshawa area; so that would be why bridge replacements and such keep being deferred.

Such would be very difficult though due to the right of way size. While it is certainly possible to expand with the collector-express setup through Whitby, major expropriation is necessary in Oshawa.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If you could maintain the posted speed limit and not get air in your car, then it is not nearly that bad.

There are spots on the 427 north of the 401 that are most certainly like that, yes.

401 is planned to be widened to 10 lanes through Oshawa ultimately, the collector express will run to the 412.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

There are spots on the 427 north of the 401 that are most certainly like that, yes.

401 is planned to be widened to 10 lanes through Oshawa ultimately, the collector express will run to the 412.

Nothing comes close to the bump by Mimico Creek on the QEW but that's ancient history.

[eternallyme]

I was thinking re: Northern Ontario, there is also some pressure to extend the 4-lane Highway 11 past North Bay. Traffic volumes are quite high for much of the way up to Kirkland Lake and Matheson before they drop off like a rock.

It creates a few challenges: how to route it? From North Bay to Temagami, there are serious constraints all the way through - the presence of Nipissing First Nation and also the difficult urban section into North Bay. Given that, I am thinking maybe...forget about using the existing route, run it concurrent with 17 through to near Sturgeon Falls, then roughly parallel Highway 64 (taking shortcuts)?

Pros:
* Avoids the descent of the escarpment into North Bay, which will be very difficult and require an elevated section into a complex interchange in an urban setting (which would be unsightly as best and very expensive)
* No real traffic generators are serviced between North Bay and Marten River, except for the northern edge of North Bay where expropriation would not be required
* No need to upgrade/twin that section, which has the least forgiving terrain on the entire route, while the new route would go somewhere less demanding
* Concurrent routing of 11/17 can push up the section through Nipissing FN (which will need to be built to full freeway standards immediately in the initial stage, as it is virtually impossible to stage construction there due to the narrow corridor and FN negotiations)
* Shorter, faster route from far northeastern Ontario (Temiskaming Shores, Kirkland Lake) to Sudbury and about equal time to North Bay
* Also helps in pushing up a section of Highway 17 that will need to be done anyway and about 30 km would be complete right away; only one set of negotiations required

Cons:
* More indirect route to North Bay (via Sturgeon Falls) although not terribly indirect
* Acceleration of negotiations with First Nations required
* Any traffic issues along existing 11N with local traffic are not solved (but that wouldn't be an MTO issue anymore anyway)

Thoughts of that?

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I was thinking re: Northern Ontario, there is also some pressure to extend the 4-lane Highway 11 past North Bay. Traffic volumes are quite high for much of the way up to Kirkland Lake and Matheson before they drop off like a rock.

It creates a few challenges: how to route it? From North Bay to Temagami, there are serious constraints all the way through - the presence of Nipissing First Nation and also the difficult urban section into North Bay. Given that, I am thinking maybe...forget about using the existing route, run it concurrent with 17 through to near Sturgeon Falls, then roughly parallel Highway 64 (taking shortcuts)?

Pros:
* Avoids the descent of the escarpment into North Bay, which will be very difficult and require an elevated section into a complex interchange in an urban setting (which would be unsightly as best and very expensive)
* No real traffic generators are serviced between North Bay and Marten River, except for the northern edge of North Bay where expropriation would not be required
* No need to upgrade/twin that section, which has the least forgiving terrain on the entire route, while the new route would go somewhere less demanding
* Concurrent routing of 11/17 can push up the section through Nipissing FN (which will need to be built to full freeway standards immediately in the initial stage, as it is virtually impossible to stage construction there due to the narrow corridor and FN negotiations)
* Shorter, faster route from far northeastern Ontario (Temiskaming Shores, Kirkland Lake) to Sudbury and about equal time to North Bay
* Also helps in pushing up a section of Highway 17 that will need to be done anyway and about 30 km would be complete right away; only one set of negotiations required

Cons:
* More indirect route to North Bay (via Sturgeon Falls) although not terribly indirect
* Acceleration of negotiations with First Nations required
* Any traffic issues along existing 11N with local traffic are not solved (but that wouldn't be an MTO issue anymore anyway)

Thoughts of that?

AADTs on Highway 11, once you're north of North Bay, are generally below 5000, though closer to 6000 near the Tri-Towns. I drove to Temagami a couple years ago on a long weekend, and it didn't seem to have much traffic compared to other two-lane provincial highways elsewhere in Ontario on similar weekends. Perhaps some additional passing lanes would be good, but I don't see it as a priority for twinning.

In Northern Ontario, I'd say Highway 17 is a higher priority for twinning, particularly close to Sudbury where some two-lane sections have AADTs above 10,000 already.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I was thinking re: Northern Ontario, there is also some pressure to extend the 4-lane Highway 11 past North Bay. Traffic volumes are quite high for much of the way up to Kirkland Lake and Matheson before they drop off like a rock.

It creates a few challenges: how to route it? From North Bay to Temagami, there are serious constraints all the way through - the presence of Nipissing First Nation and also the difficult urban section into North Bay. Given that, I am thinking maybe...forget about using the existing route, run it concurrent with 17 through to near Sturgeon Falls, then roughly parallel Highway 64 (taking shortcuts)?

Pros:
* Avoids the descent of the escarpment into North Bay, which will be very difficult and require an elevated section into a complex interchange in an urban setting (which would be unsightly as best and very expensive)
* No real traffic generators are serviced between North Bay and Marten River, except for the northern edge of North Bay where expropriation would not be required
* No need to upgrade/twin that section, which has the least forgiving terrain on the entire route, while the new route would go somewhere less demanding
* Concurrent routing of 11/17 can push up the section through Nipissing FN (which will need to be built to full freeway standards immediately in the initial stage, as it is virtually impossible to stage construction there due to the narrow corridor and FN negotiations)
* Shorter, faster route from far northeastern Ontario (Temiskaming Shores, Kirkland Lake) to Sudbury and about equal time to North Bay
* Also helps in pushing up a section of Highway 17 that will need to be done anyway and about 30 km would be complete right away; only one set of negotiations required

Cons:
* More indirect route to North Bay (via Sturgeon Falls) although not terribly indirect
* Acceleration of negotiations with First Nations required
* Any traffic issues along existing 11N with local traffic are not solved (but that wouldn't be an MTO issue anymore anyway)

Thoughts of that?

Originally Posted by manny_santos

AADTs on Highway 11, once you're north of North Bay, are generally below 5000, though closer to 6000 near the Tri-Towns. I drove to Temagami a couple years ago on a long weekend, and it didn't seem to have much traffic compared to other two-lane provincial highways elsewhere in Ontario on similar weekends. Perhaps some additional passing lanes would be good, but I don't see it as a priority for twinning.

In Northern Ontario, I'd say Highway 17 is a higher priority for twinning, particularly close to Sudbury where some two-lane sections have AADTs above 10,000 already.

Highway 11 and 17 are both heavily used for truck traffic going east/west through the province.

Highway 17 north of the Soo is very hilly and would take a lot more to 4 lane than 11.

Once you are north of New Liskard, highway 11 flattens out and would be more useful as a divided highway.

I can see highway 17 between the Soo and parts east becoming 4 lanes. As for the route to the west, Highway 11 makes more sense.

I have driven these highways a few times.

[jmt18325]

Highway 11 seemed more than adequate as is. I'd say it makes more sense to 4 lane to Petawawa, then from around North Bay to Saulte Ste Marie. Highway 11 an 17 could both have more passing lanes added everywhere else East of Nipigon. Where possible, highway 17 could also be straightened, and bypasses could be added to most towns.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Highway 11 seemed more than adequate as is. I'd say it makes more sense to 4 lane to Petawawa, then from around North Bay to Saulte Ste Marie. Highway 11 an 17 could both have more passing lanes added everywhere else East of Nipigon. Where possible, highway 17 could also be straightened, and bypasses could be added to most towns.

That is the same response for highway 69 south of Sudbury and Highway 11 south of North Bay. The problem is not passing lanes. The problem is that people cross the centre line. A median solves this. Accidents have dropped on highway 11 now that it is divided

Highway 17 north of Sault St. Marie to Nipigon could remain 2 lanes with passing lanes added IF 11 was 4 lanes.

Drive the northern highways enough and you will see how bad it really can be.

[Loco101]

Even though I live in Northern Ontario, I have to agree that Hwy 17 should be 4-laned from Arnprior to Petawawa before elsewhere on that highway. Then we should be looking at between North Bay and Sault Ste. Marie.

As for Hwy 11, small sections should be 4 laned such as in Temiskaming District bypassing Temiskaming Shores and Englehart. But bypasses, and super-2 ones need to be built around a number of towns. And yes, more passing lanes are needed.

I do feel that eventually federal dollars should be available to have at least one freeway going across Canada.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Even though I live in Northern Ontario, I have to agree that Hwy 17 should be 4-laned from Arnprior to Petawawa before elsewhere on that highway. Then we should be looking at between North Bay and Sault Ste. Marie.

As for Hwy 11, small sections should be 4 laned such as in Temiskaming District bypassing Temiskaming Shores and Englehart. But bypasses, and super-2 ones need to be built around a number of towns. And yes, more passing lanes are needed.

I do feel that eventually federal dollars should be available to have at least one freeway going across Canada.

For 4 laning highway 17, I do agree to keep building west from Arnprior. Do it in 15-20 km chunks.
From the section between the Soo to Arnprior, here is my suggestions:

1) 4 lane the bypass in Sudbury.
2) build a 4 lane connection to the International Bridge in Sault St Marie to the current 4 lanes.
3) build a bypass around Lake Lauzon/Blind River.
4) Build a bypass around Sturgeon Falls.

Once these are done, fill in the gaps.

As far as 11, the entire route is the easier one to 4 lane. Less choke points, more chunks of current highway that could be easily twined.

[Dwils01]

All I would like to see is 4 lanes on Hwy 17 from Espanola to Wahnapitae and complete the 4 lane section to Second Line in the Sault. The rest I'm fine with it only being a two lane road.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Highway 2 through Red Deer, AB:

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

Thanks for the great vid.
I'm curious to know if most people from Red Deer tend to go to Edmonton or Calgary for their general shopping or entertainment. Woodstock in Ontario is stuck right between KWC and London which have the same population but most gravitate towards London.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Thanks for the great vid.
I'm curious to know if most people from Red Deer tend to go to Edmonton or Calgary for their general shopping or entertainment. Woodstock in Ontario is stuck right between KWC and London which have the same population but most gravitate towards London.

I agree with that assessment, but I have to wonder how long that will be the case. It seems to me that KWC is surpassing London in terms of amenities, if it hasn't done so already.

[sonysnob]

A group has launched a petition to keep the 412 as a toll free road:

https://www.change.org/p/keep-ontario-highway-412-as-a-non-toll-route

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

A group has launched a petition to keep the 412 as a toll free road:

https://www.change.org/p/keep-ontario-highway-412-as-a-non-toll-route

Makes sense to me. You shouldn't need to pay a toll to access a toll road.

That will also make the other interchanges on 412/418 more usable to locals as well.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Makes sense to me. You shouldn't need to pay a toll to access a toll road.

That will also make the other interchanges on 412/418 more usable to locals as well.

So if they changed the name of the 407 west of ninth line road to something else, it should be free too?

[Loco101]

Question:

Why do almost all busy two lane highways in Ontario not have paved shoulders? I've travelled across Canada and have found that Ontario is probably the worst province for not having paved shoulders on busy two lane highways which includes Hwys 17 and 11 (Trans-Canada routes) and more. Poor people bicycling! (Quebec has been at least making paved shoulders for bicycles on its national highways even if it's not a full paved shoulder)

[BretttheRiderFan]

In terms of shopping or entertainment, I think with Red Deer it mostly depends on what's going on or what they're shopping for.

I wonder if the opening of CrossIron Mills just north of Calgary has had an impact on the number of people in central Alberta/Red Deer who choose to go to Edmonton for shopping? In terms of entertainment though I'm sure it's just whichever shows happen to be going on.

I do wonder what the breakdown of support in Red Deer is between the Oilers/Esks vs Flames/Stamps.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Makes sense to me. You shouldn't need to pay a toll to access a toll road.

That will also make the other interchanges on 412/418 more usable to locals as well.

I think it's a glass half full/empty perspective.

On one hand, you could argue that a free connector highway would encourage more people to divert onto the parallel toll road.

On the other hand, people who would have otherwise taken the 407 to access northern Durham region destinations might just clog up the 401 and take the free 412 instead.