Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The ethnics and the money. What Parizeau drunkenly complained about on the night he lost the referendum. The vile lesser life forms thwarting the righteous cause of the pur laine (again, to be blunt).

October 30, 1995 was nearly 30 years ago. Parizeau is long gone, he belongs to the ages now. Whether he be a hero or villain. Digging up corpses mostly is a reminder that the dead should stay buried, and that the dead can do nothing for tomorrow.

Quebec has moved on in a certain sense, nearly a generation and a half removed from those days. The old men whose passions tested the foundation of a country we hold so dear can solve nothing for the tests of tomorrow.

Wither Canada? Maybe. Maybe not. History will do what it will do, but I'd like to think the Solitudes still have a bit more of a marriage to go. Even if it is kind of passionless at this juncture, it sure beats the strained passions of a younger relationship.

Anyway, this older guy knows enough to watch where the kids are at.

Let it go.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a huge difference between "viable" and maintaining quality of life. All kinds of dirty poor countries are viable on basic sovereignty. Most of us wouldn't want to live in them though.

Sovereignists would be satisfied if Quebec was in the top 20-30 countries by HDI. No reason that it wouldn't be.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The ethnics and the money. What Parizeau drunkenly complained about on the night he lost the referendum. The vile lesser life forms thwarting the righteous cause of the pur laine (again, to be blunt).

Reality doesn't have to be pretty to be true
And you know I'm right in this case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't see how this works. Do Quebecers just hate wealth now or something? Also the idea that desperation would make the country prosperous instead of a prime target for exploitation by huge multinationals, doesn't match recent history with a lot of resource rich countries.

There are countries that get horribly exploited by resource companies and some that don't. Quebec has more of the profile of those that don't. At least not without getting something decent out of it.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Reality doesn't have to be pretty to be true
And you know I'm right in this case.

You and I are on opposite sides in this debate my friend.

I absolutely and irrevocably believe in ONE Canada, united, strong and free from coast, to coast, to coast. This is an innate part of my identity. Anything else is unthinkable. This is a righteous cause worth fighting for.

You on the other hand keep inching closer and closer to the separatist cause. A few years ago, you were simply ambivalent. Your views have hardened considerably.

Existential debates like this can cleave families and drive deep wedges between peoples that can take generations to heal. Be careful what you wish for. Once you open the box, you have no idea what might emerge.

[urbandreamer]

That's because Quebec is already a separate country.

NFLD can rejoin UK, or possibly Ireland. NS, PEI & the Irving's can join Scotland. Ontario to Saskatchewan will be one country while BC becomes a Chinese colony and Alberta splits in half - half to New Canada and half to Utah.

Besides, with 2 million newbies moving to Canada every year, within a decade the Canada we know is finished.

I am not loyal to any country. Clan first!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You and I are on opposite sides in this debate my friend.

I absolutely and irrevocably believe in ONE Canada, united, strong and free from coast, to coast, to coast. This is an innate part of my identity. Anything else is unthinkable. This is a righteous cause worth fighting for.

You on the other hand keep inching closer and closer to the separatist cause. A few years ago, you were simply ambivalent. Your views have hardened considerably.

Existential debates like this can cleave families and drive deep wedges between peoples that can take generations to heal. Be careful what you wish for. Once you open the box, you have no idea what might emerge.

I simply like to discuss various topics and hypotheses and while obviously people's slants are normally apparent, speculating about them or deploring them is the least interesting part of SSP for me.

That said regardless of whether I am increasingly ambivalent about the Canadian status quo or not, since there is no one to convince either way on here, at the very least if we move towards Referendum III maybe some of the stuff I bring up points the way to what the Non side and ROCers should not expect will work- if they want the Non to win.

[Acajack]

Still continue to be quite shocked at how weak the Canadian identity seems to be in the minds of so many, and how a province that (in spite of its pivotal historical role I know) factors so little in the everyday lives of ROCers and which is an annoyance more often than not, is somehow the irreplaceable glue that holds Canada together?

It's even more surprising because I consider SSP to be way better-than-average and more knowledgeable and interested in Canada's uniqueness and future.

If people want to spend their time being dismayed and deploring things, maybe they should focus on that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sovereignists would be satisfied if Quebec was in the top 20-30 countries by HDI. No reason that it wouldn't be.

Canada itself is 15 and that QoL is substantially buoyed by resource wealth which indirectly funds our federal government and transfers to provinces and people. Go look at the list of HDI. I really wouldn't bet on 20-30 for independent Quebec absent the above.

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are countries that get horribly exploited by resource companies and some that don't. Quebec has more of the profile of those that don't. At least not without getting something decent out of it.

How much of this is because of the protection enabled by both Canadian law and capital markets, as opposed to some uniquely Quebec trait?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You and I are on opposite sides in this debate my friend.

I absolutely and irrevocably believe in ONE Canada, united, strong and free from coast, to coast, to coast. This is an innate part of my identity. Anything else is unthinkable. This is a righteous cause worth fighting for.

You on the other hand keep inching closer and closer to the separatist cause. A few years ago, you were simply ambivalent. Your views have hardened considerably.

Existential debates like this can cleave families and drive deep wedges between peoples that can take generations to heal. Be careful what you wish for. Once you open the box, you have no idea what might emerge.

I take comfort in the fact that the Boomer version of separatism is mostly going to die out with Gen X. I doubt even Acajack's kids are as ardent separatists as he is. At least in the military, where I get to interact with a lot of younger people, I've seen a marked decline in the pro-separatist views among young Quebecois. They seem to be better able to balance their culture and the outside world, now less perceived as a threat.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

That's because Quebec is already a separate country.

NFLD can rejoin UK, or possibly Ireland. NS, PEI & the Irving's can join Scotland. Ontario to Saskatchewan will be one country while BC becomes a Chinese colony and Alberta splits in half - half to New Canada and half to Utah.

Besides, with 2 million newbies moving to Canada every year, within a decade the Canada we know is finished.

I am not loyal to any country. Clan first!

Ahhhh. The deep fantasies of anti-West haters.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still continue to be quite shocked at how weak the Canadian identity seems to be in the minds of so many

I am genuinely curious what you're thinking when you make that statement. What kind of "Canadian identity" are you looking for?

I suspect that most of us have more of a regional identity, but also an appreciation for the country as a whole. When we are in Canada we probably identify by our province or region, but when we are in other countries we identify (in our mindset, not just how we address other people) as Canadian.

Of course this can change as our lives develop. After all you, yourself, are a Maritimer who probably identifies more as a Quebecois than a 'Bluenoser'... but still I expect that if you went to the US you would identify as a Canadian (on SSP you would probably not ).

Or, are you talking about how the rest of the world views Canada? i.e. what is the Canadian identity to the world?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still continue to be quite shocked at how weak the Canadian identity seems to be in the minds of so many, and how a province that (in spite of its pivotal historical role I know) factors so little in the everyday lives of ROCers and which is an annoyance more often than not, is somehow the irreplaceable glue that holds Canada together?.

It might be different if Quebec were an island off the east coast, but, Quebec lies at the very heart of the country, and, quite literally divides the country in two. It would be difficult to remove Quebec from the federation without profound geopolitical consequences.

Quebec was the original Canada, and, still influences the Canadian identity to a large degree. The Quebec question has been at the very heart of Canadian identity for 250 years. Yes, there are annoyances on both sides, but, in general terms, accommodations have been made that have generally worked.

The marriage is dysfunctional, but, the divorce would be quite messy. There are lots of assets to divvy up, and, nobody has decided yet who gets to keep the family cat (let alone what about the kids). The question is "would it be worth it", and, would you be happy afterwards knowing all the bitterness the "project" would generate. This will not be a Czechoslovakian style velvet divorce. Czechoslovakia had just emerged from Soviet domination, and, international boundaries in eastern Europe have always been quite fluid. We have hundreds of years of shared history here in Canada. Canada is actually one of the older nation states in the world.........

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I take comfort in the fact that the Boomer version of separatism is mostly going to die out with Gen X.

That's good. The 'boomer version' is likely a result of actually having lived through times when it seemed like Quebec separation could be a real thing. Now these old feelings are being dredged up by our good friends here on SSP. For those of us who value our country, the idea that one province would want to break that up actually creates bad feelings that take a lot of time to go away.

For any anglo that lived in Quebec in the 1970s it was not a pleasant experience. I know someone who visited Montreal back then to stay with relatives for a summer. As an English-speaking child she received lots of abuse from French-speaking children and adults alike because she was anglo, and she still remembers how hurtful it was to this day.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

That's because Quebec is already a separate country.

NFLD can rejoin UK, or possibly Ireland. NS, PEI & the Irving's can join Scotland. Ontario to Saskatchewan will be one country while BC becomes a Chinese colony and Alberta splits in half - half to New Canada and half to Utah.

Besides, with 2 million newbies moving to Canada every year, within a decade the Canada we know is finished.

I am not loyal to any country. Clan first!

[MolsonExport]

It is rather strange being a Quebec separatist at the same time as working for the Federal government. Never mind biting the hand that feeds you...I would think that it should be more about being a person of principles.

But then, as always on this and related threads, there are points of view, and then there are points of view. Some points of view are roundly dismissed, while others are advanced as being irreproachable. As a Quebec Anglo, I always found myself relegated to the former group, by those in the latter group, that purport to have a monopoly on the truth. I guess in their mind, mother tongue and bloodlines are the only defining characteristic of being a Quebecker (and most certainly, being a Quebecois, which is a much narrower category, as plainly evidenced by the sentiments expressed by many in this thread). Heck, I've routinely been labelled an 'enemy of Quebec' despite my fierce pride in being a native son of that province, and despite the efforts I have made to sustain and nurture the French Fact in Canada (which constitutes a profound part of my view of Canada), including ensuring that my two children are bilingual.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It might be different if Quebec were an island off the east coast, but, Quebec lies at the very heart of the country, and, quite literally divides the country in two. It would be difficult to remove Quebec from the federation without profound geopolitical consequences.

Quebec was the original Canada, and, still influences the Canadian identity to a large degree. The Quebec question has been at the very heart of Canadian identity for 250 years. Yes, there are annoyances on both sides, but, in general terms, accommodations have been made that have generally worked.

The marriage is dysfunctional, but, the divorce would be quite messy. There are lots of assets to divvy up, and, nobody has decided yet who gets to keep the family cat (let alone what about the kids). The question is "would it be worth it", and, would you be happy afterwards knowing all the bitterness the "project" would generate. This will not be a Czechoslovakian style velvet divorce. Czechoslovakia had just emerged from Soviet domination, and, international boundaries in eastern Europe have always been quite fluid. We have hundreds of years of shared history here in Canada. Canada is actually one of the older nation states in the world.........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I take comfort in the fact that the Boomer version of separatism is mostly going to die out with Gen X. I doubt even Acajack's kids are as ardent separatists as he is. At least in the military, where I get to interact with a lot of younger people, I've seen a marked decline in the pro-separatist views among young Quebecois. They seem to be better able to balance their culture and the outside world, now less perceived as a threat.

Who says I am a separatist, let alone "ardent"? If you guys think I am a separatist (even ardent) then you obviously never talk to any real ones. Without saying I am an official supporter, my positions on here line up almost perfectly with those of the CAQ - who are not considered separatist.

As for my kids well they're quite passive about the issue. That's all I'll say about that.

And regarding people in the military (or anywhere else that ROCers mix with Québécois a lot) it's well known that a lot of people keep their views to themselves. Similar to how most Canadians if they were in rural Alabama wouldn't going spouting off about how Donald Trump is a dickhead all the time.

Though sure I do agree with you that most Québécois in the CAF are federalists, though it's said that CFB Valcartier went to the Oui in 1995.

I've known and still know quite a few CAF and also RCMP members and (yes Molson) even federal public servants who think Quebec should be its own country. It's not the majority view for sure but they're definitely there as a decent-sized subgroup. But they generally remain discreet for the most part.

Though not all of them.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fi...ties-bureaucrat-ordered-rehired-1.604369

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

You give yourself and this forum way too much importance. Nobody cares about what is discussed here, and this is a good thing.

I am pretty sure that New Brisavoine actually is French from France, based on other forums where I've seen him in action.

That said, it's funny how people make a big deal about him being a "foreigner" and therefore not entitled to comment on Canadian affairs. When you consider how Canada is supposed to abhor "nativism".

So, if New Brisavoine were to obtain Canadian permanent residency (pretty easy and fast for someone from France to achieve, I'd say), would his views on Quebec-Canada be all of sudden welcome and valid?

(The real question I suppose is whether his views would be welcome and valid even today, if he was glowing and complimentary and said that Canada is the cat's meow.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canada itself is 15 and that QoL is substantially buoyed by resource wealth which indirectly funds our federal government and transfers to provinces and people. Go look at the list of HDI. I really wouldn't bet on 20-30 for independent Quebec absent the above.

.

This makes it sound like the Canadian federal government is this external God-like entity that showers down wealth from the sky onto the provinces and people. The feds get their money from the country's people and the resources are there in the provinces, in municipalities, on land owned by Canadian companies and individuals.

Also, the differences among many of the top couple dozen countries in the HDI index are reasonably minimal and which one is better than the other for someone is often just a question of personal preferences. Canadians or Westerners in general could move in between the top 50 even without much change in the creature comforts they enjoy - provided you remain in the same social class. I'd rather be middle class or upper middle class in Portugal or Argentina than poor in Canada.

Note that even Canada over the past couple of decades has moved up and down the list, in between approx. 15th place and 1st place.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am pretty sure that New Brisavoine actually is French from France, based on other forums where I've seen him in action.

That said, it's funny how people make a big deal about him being a "foreigner" and therefore not entitled to comment on Canadian affairs. When you consider how Canada is supposed to abhor "nativism".

So, if New Brisavoine were to obtain Canadian permanent residency (pretty easy and fast for someone from France to achieve, I'd say), would his views on Quebec-Canada be all of sudden welcome and valid?

(The real question I suppose is whether his views would be welcome and valid even today, if he was glowing and complimentary and said that Canada is the cat's meow.)

You are right. If there was a forum that was 90% populated by people from France, and if I, as a Canadian, joined that forum with the sole purpose of enthusiastically advocating for the separation of Brittany (or Alsace, or Corsica, or the Pays Basque), and if I routinely sneered at the sacrosanct French culture, I am sure that I would be welcomed with open arms. Makes perfect sense. How dare they object?*



*Which is a hilarious proposition, as the views of Anglos are routinely derided in this very thread as being illegitimate.