Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still trying to wrap my head around that all politicians on all sides including Liberals, plus analysts and economists, say that Quebec would be totally viable as a country, but we are supposed to believe SSP opinions instead.

So all these people are out to lunch but SSP is not?

(Not even saying that independence would be the best option.)

There's a huge difference between "viable" and maintaining quality of life. All kinds of dirty poor countries are viable on basic sovereignty. Most of us wouldn't want to live in them though.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Easy answer: an independent Quebec would have to become more open to developing its resources.

I don't see how this works. Do Quebecers just hate wealth now or something? Also the idea that desperation would make the country prosperous instead of a prime target for exploitation by huge multinationals, doesn't match recent history with a lot of resource rich countries.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Any port in a storm, as they say.

Even Edmonton’s

[OldDartmouthMark]

I wonder, once it becomes its own sovereign nation, how much of Quebec's survival as a sovereign nation might necessitate compromises of its very raison d'etre (i.e. language and culture), given that its most important trading partner would likely be the US (and whatever the ROC becomes). Maybe it wouldn't matter, but regardless economic realities always trump language and culture in this part of the world, so one wonders if becoming an isolated french nation would allow Quebec to flourish, or would it be held back?

As far as the US swallowing up parts of Canada, looking at the map, if they took Atlantic Canada they would basically control the east coast. I don't see the US making any great efforts to take on the expense of increasing their land mass so extensively as taking in all of Canada. Especially since their messed up political situation is causing them to struggle with simply funding the function of the US government. The place always seems to be one step away from a civil war, or becoming a non-democratic country... regardless they can't seem to get their shit together to simply run their own business, much less take on a huge country like Canada (sans Quebec). So I have to say 'it ain't gonna happen'...

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still trying to wrap my head around that all politicians on all sides including Liberals, plus analysts and economists, say that Quebec would be totally viable as a country, but we are supposed to believe SSP opinions instead.

So all these people are out to lunch but SSP is not?

(Not even saying that independence would be the best option.)

I mean, internet forum.

It mostly comes down to what sacrifices Quebec would feel worthy of making in its cause, and how its neighbours would treat it. The United States would be indifferent at the end of the day I suspect, as long as it could make a deal and American interests would remain safe. To be clear though, the United States isn't in the habit of being unduly generous for reasons, so they'd squeeze a good deal if they could get it. The smaller one is, the harder the squeeze, so beware.

Even the most amicable divorces still sting, so the rest of Canada-Quebec relationship would probably be beset by moderate acrimony. Not that it would matter much as I'd expect the remainder of the country to fragment soon enough. Those on the ends of the Solitudes would probably cheer, those closer to the middle would mourn.

But kludges hold surprisingly strongly. Almost as strongly as circular internet debates.

[dreambrother808]

The study found that Quebecers were twice as likely than those in the rest of Canada to have a negative opinion of Judaism as a religion (32% vs 16%).
Additionally, 52% of Quebecers say they have a negative opinion of Islam, much higher than the average in the rest of Canada, at 36%.

The Angus Reid study also found that negative views of Islam and Judaism in Quebec increase with age and lack of education. The older or less educated someone is, the more likely they are to have a negative opinion of each religion.

https://cultmtl.com/2023/03/study-finds-...ism-islamophobia-most-intense-in-quebec/

[1overcosc]

^ There's some painful history there.

Historically in Montreal, in the old days before the Quiet Revolution, the Jewish community faced significant hostility/anti-Semitism from the Francophone community due to Catholic Church influence. As a consequence the Jewish community chose to integrate into the Anglophone population instead, and the legacy of this runs deep. To this day the Askhenazi Jewish community of Montreal continues to be probably the most stubborn demographic in Quebec about insisting on using English and not French, which reinforced existing tension.

[Kilgore Trout]

Not integrating into the French-speaking community wasn't really a choice, and it wasn't just a reaction against anti-Semitism, which was also rampant among WASPs. McGill had quotas to prevent too many Jews from attending, for instance. What it came down to was culture and policies that kept French-Canadians an insular cultural group. It was a bit like other British colonial societies, like Singapore, where different ethno-cultural groups were kept separate by language and religion, with the English-speaking elite at the top of the ladder.

Even if a Jewish family wanted to send their kids to French school, they couldn't, because nearly all French schools were Catholic. Which is why Jews like Mordecai Richler and Leonard Cohen went to nominally Protestant schools (although Cohen went to a private Jewish high school). There were English Catholic schools but as far as I know, no French schools for non-Catholics.

Today, a significant part of the Jewish community is francophone because of immigration from France and Morocco. According to this analysis, in 2011 about 17% of Montreal Jews were francophone, but with immigration trends that is probably close to 30% now.

https://www.federationcja.org/en/jewish_montreal/demographics/

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Easy answer: an independent Quebec would have to become more open to developing its resources.

If Norway got billions of "equalization kroner" each year from deep coffers in Copenhagen, maybe Norway would have left its oil in the ground, since oil is dirty and Norwegians like the environment. (The current country called Norway actually used to belong to Denmark.)

Yeah, that was my thought too. That's why I said independence would make governments in Québec City more "serious". When you're financially on your own, it has a way of forcing you to 'focus mind'.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

(and I think Quebec is central to Canadian identity)

If Québec was central to Canadian identity, then surely everybody in Toronto and Vancouver would have at least conversational level in French...

[MonctonRad]

Hi Yuri. Here to stir some more shit?

Say hi to Vladimir for me.........

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If Québec was central to Canadian identity, then surely everybody in Toronto and Vancouver would have at least conversational level in French...

Speaking English OR French (not necessarily both) is central to the Canadian identity, as is the tension that this can generate.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If Québec was central to Canadian identity, then surely everybody in Toronto and Vancouver would have at least conversational level in French...

It’s true though. Quebec’s traditional symbols and stuff (the beaver, the maple leaf, the Ô Canada anthem) are the ones that later became “Canada’s”.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Study finds feelings of antisemitism, Islamophobia ‘most intense’ in Quebec

https://cultmtl.com/2023/03/study-finds-...ism-islamophobia-most-intense-in-quebec/

I’d argue that this finding actually makes Quebeckers the most reasonable people in all of Canada: how can you look at the current escalated/needless shitshow in the Middle East without having, as your takeaway from it, an increased dislike for both Jews and Arabs?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

It’s true though. Quebec’s traditional symbols and stuff (the beaver, the maple leaf, the Ô Canada anthem) are the ones that later became “Canada’s”.

Ok, like Pocahontas or cornbread to US identity...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Speaking English OR French (not necessarily both) is central to the Canadian identity, as is the tension that this can generate.

Originally Posted by lio45

It’s true though. Quebec’s traditional symbols and stuff (the beaver, the maple leaf, the Ô Canada anthem) are the ones that later became “Canada’s”.

Can't really expect a foreigner to understand this.....

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can't really expect a foreigner to understand this.....

I think his reasons for being here are a tad more nefarious than simply an ignorant contribution to a sociopolitical discussion.

He’s one of Vlad’s stooges bent on destabilizing the west.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think his reasons for being here are a tad more nefarious than simply an ignorant contribution to a sociopolitical discussion.

He’s one of Vlad’s stooges bent on destabilizing the west.

You give yourself and this forum way too much importance. Nobody cares about what is discussed here, and this is a good thing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Not integrating into the French-speaking community wasn't really a choice, and it wasn't just a reaction against anti-Semitism, which was also rampant among WASPs. McGill had quotas to prevent too many Jews from attending, for instance. What it came down to was culture and policies that kept French-Canadians an insular cultural group. It was a bit like other British colonial societies, like Singapore, where different ethno-cultural groups were kept separate by language and religion, with the English-speaking elite at the top of the ladder.

Even if a Jewish family wanted to send their kids to French school, they couldn't, because nearly all French schools were Catholic. Which is why Jews like Mordecai Richler and Leonard Cohen went to nominally Protestant schools (although Cohen went to a private Jewish high school). There were English Catholic schools but as far as I know, no French schools for non-Catholics.

Today, a significant part of the Jewish community is francophone because of immigration from France and Morocco. According to this analysis, in 2011 about 17% of Montreal Jews were francophone, but with immigration trends that is probably close to 30% now.

https://www.federationcja.org/en/jewish_montreal/demographics/

Or, for a blunter explanation, they simply followed the money. Jews were far from the only Immigrant group in Montréal that did this.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or, for a blunter explanation, they simply followed the money. Jews were far from the only Immigrant group in Montréal that did this.

The ethnics and the money. What Parizeau drunkenly complained about on the night he lost the referendum. The vile lesser life forms thwarting the righteous cause of the pur laine (again, to be blunt).