ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

sevensixtwo, please get a DAMN GRIP on reality. However altruistic the Green party may be in your opinion, they have less of a chance here than the KKK does. If this fails, it will be YEARS - if ever, that our absolute fucking joke of a knuckle-dragging legislature makes ANY attempt of revisiting this issue. And, if they do on their own - Lord help us all.

This is our shot - however flawed, of making or breaking our future as a viable, vibrant metro in the perception of the overwhelming opinion of corporate decision makers and the worldwide media. Are you really comfortable with taking that chance to further your extremely marginal agenda?

agreed!

atlanta is not seattle. atlanta doesn't have the progressive demographic to consider another measure if and when TSPLOST fails. so many people are misguided and misinformed on this measure.

[Tuckerman]

I like "knuckle dragging " etc. Good description. And it isn't just in no support of transit; they have an equally appalling history of support for the arts, education, etc. Short of a level 9 earthquake this will not change.

[hamster]

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2012/02/16/del-taco-plans-60-locations-for.html

[hamster]

http://pba.org/post/22-faqs-and-answers-about-t-splost?nopop=1

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

Can you explain why this political reality leads you to conclude there is an anti-transit climate? This anti-transit thing is rumor the Repubs are circulating to get us to agree to a shit bill before we realize that the pro-transit crowd is now holding all the cards in the Assembly.

What I'm not sure holds is this idea that a shift to the metro area at the state level means any hypothetical future project list will be more transit friendly. The current list of projects for all intents and purposes was the result of the political climate and values in the metro area, not outside of it. And since most are committed to automobile transit in some shape or form, they will continue to be emphasized in any future project list. That's just the unfortunate (imo) reality of this metro area. I think there are some good reasons many local planners I've heard (very pro-transit, politically savvy planners, that is) are for the bill.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by delarosa

What I'm not sure holds is this idea that a shift to the metro area at the state level means any hypothetical future project list will be more transit friendly. The current list of projects for all intents and purposes was the result of the political climate and values in the metro area, not outside of it. And since most are committed to automobile transit in some shape or form, they will continue to be emphasized in any future project list. That's just the unfortunate (imo) reality of this metro area. I think there are some good reasons many local planners I've heard (very pro-transit, politically savvy planners, that is) are for the bill.

I'm not really looking for changes in the transit plan; I am not a transit expert. However, I am a democracy expert so I am looking for bill that doesn't have all the democracy removed. Why should 200,000 people in Cherokee County have as much say as 1,000,000 Fulton residents. T-Splost is scam that benefits contractors financially and hurts the city politically.

[RobMidtowner]

762, stfu, seriously! Everything you are saying is false and it's very clear what your agenda is. The funding is tied to a project list and it's written into law. So this "undemocratic" board of county leaders can't come in after the fact and cherry-pick certain projects to be funded, the tax revenue is bound by law to the project list and schedule (www.atlantaregionalroundtable.com). And something I wish more people realized is this is really our chance to get more of our tax dollars to stay in our region. The gas tax is split evenly amongst GDOT's 7 districts across the state (of which metro Atlanta is only one) even though more than half the population (and tax revenue presumably) is from metro Atlanta. So for providing half or more of the tax revenue, metro Atlanta gets 1/7th of the money in return. The T-SPLOST is 100% taxed in the 10-county region and all of that money stays in the region. So this is a chance to say "Eff You!" to the state legislature and finally get a little closer at least to what IMO is the fair way to split tax revenue. If you think Atlanta can afford to wait on this, you haven't been around here long enough.

[Tuckerman]

Perhaps we should have a political post that spends some time on how "democracy" works in this country and how it ties to development, urbanization and ultimately skyscrapers. In any case our "democracy" is built on a two party system that often results in rather unusual compromises (like the TSPLOST) that offer a plan that has a mix of strengths and weaknesses (depending totally on your perspective). On an individual basis one generally hopes that the compromise is "good enough." IMO that's what we have in the TSPLOST, so I don't vote for it because I am overjoyed, but because I am pretty sure that it is the best one can hope for and no better alternatives will be forthcoming in the foreseeable future.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

I'm not really looking for changes in the transit plan; I am not a transit expert. However, I am a democracy expert so I am looking for bill that doesn't have all the democracy removed. Why should 200,000 people in Cherokee County have as much say as 1,000,000 Fulton residents. T-Splost is scam that benefits contractors financially and hurts the city politically.

Based on previous posts, it sounded like you are expecting the project list/transit options will change in the future. In terms of T-SPLOST specifically, it doesn't seem like Cherokee county does have as much say, though in terms of democracy in general, what you're describing sounds like an dynamic that was to an extent intentionally preserved in the framing of our system.

Personally I think T-SPLOST will actually benefit the City of Atlanta (not sure if that's what you meant or Fulton metro..ie pop 400k+ vs...) considerably. Because even though some of the local transit projects aren't funded in full, getting those off the ground sooner rather than later is going to serve as a springboard/foundation for a more comprehensive system that, if you believe has advantages and appeal, will feed off of the increased migration, development and usage. It's a significant kick-start. The alternative is well...worse than status quo...and that will prove itself out in short order.

[Zanarkand A East]

Voted Yes this morning. The commentary from the naysayers makes me worry about how short-sighted the populace is. One gentleman thought tax revenue from Augusta and Savannah would be funneled to Atlanta. Someone explained that those three cities are in separate regions, and he admitted his mistake. I wonder if detractors are spending more time reading the anti-tax vitriol or reading the actual language of the law being voted on. One AJC poster said that most metro Atlantans don't care whether Charlotte, Tampa, Memphis, Dallas, Houston, Denver, etc., pass us. I wonder if he'll care if more businesses go the way of Time Warner and Chiquita. Truly mind-blowing.

[sevensixtwo]

If T-Splost failing means commerce in Georgia grinds to a screeching halt, then it seems likely the Assembly will work very hard to resume commerce with a new transit bill next time around.

SURPRISE

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

If T-Splost failing means commerce in Georgia grinds to a screeching halt, then it seems likely the Assembly will work very hard to resume commerce with a new transit bill next time around.

SURPRISE

Thats not how it works. Atlanta will just stay a mediocre city, and slowly start to lose more relocations to other cities and it'll slowly get worse. Years down the road elected officials will get off their ass and probably come up with something very similar to what we are voting on now, but it'll be too late. I've been traveling a lot this year and it's opened my eyes. I'm the kind of person most cities want. I am smart, obey the law, take public transit, eat out a lot, successful, and support local stores. If it wasn't for a job I can't see myself ever picking Atlanta over most other cities that we compete with. And the jobs go to where people like me want to go, and currently we're kinda getting our asses kicked and I can't see anyone who has done some traveling putting us on the top of their list.

[sevensixtwo]

Originally Posted by echinatl

Thats not how it works.

So... you're saying the way it works is that Atlanta has been on a huge upswing for decades but now that is going to plateau and start to wane if T-Splost fails? <-- (lol)

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

So... you're saying the way it works is that Atlanta has been on a huge upswing for decades but now that is going to plateau and start to wane if T-Splost fails? <-- (lol)

I think that's part of what's being said, which, if you stop to actually think about it, makes sense considering the growth geographically and population-wise over that period...and the impacts on congestion, pollution, political complexity, commute times and so on. Really kind of a basic concept and not all that lol'y.

[atl2phx]

Originally Posted by sevensixtwo

So... you're saying the way it works is that Atlanta has been on a huge upswing for decades but now that is going to plateau and start to wane if T-Splost fails? <-- (lol)

yes, this will likely be the case regardless of a TSPLOST pass OR fail. if you think the huge upswing atlanta and most of the sunbelt metros experienced for decades is going to continue at that same rate, you're wrong. the days of atlanta adding between .5MM and 1MM new residents every decade are most likely over for the foreseeable future.

sure, atlanta will continue to grow, but probably marginally when compared to cities that have progressively and aggressively attended to transit issues. georgia is as red as they come...there will be no TSPLOST do over or a comparable plan that accommodates a healthy mix of transit alternatives.

[desbaratto]

http://www.ajc.com/news/tsplost-results-1483968.html

[L41A]

Originally Posted by desbaratto

http://www.ajc.com/news/tsplost-results-1483968.html

No. It does not look good for the Atlanta region to pass TSPLOST. But it does look promising for Augusta and Columbus regions.

[Snakebit]

CEO of a company with large offices in Atlanta:

Let me see, you guys have one of the worst transit systems in the country. It costs my company millions of dollars per year (that's why we contributed to the effort to pass the referendum). You also spend the least amount on transportation and mass transit in the country. Now, you vote down the first comprehensive and bipartisan initiative in Georgia history aimed at transit while your competitor cities are investing (and this plan took 5 years to develop). Why should we continue to operate here?

TSplost Opponent:

Well, you have to understand that:

1- We think that roads should be privatized and you should pay for the roads you use. Why should I pay money for roads that I don't specifically use? You should understand that all taxes are evil and that we shouldn't pay anything. This is the best system, I promise. It'll just take some time to get the private system in place.

2- This list has too much transit. Why should I pay for transit in that minority infested city that I never use? So they can ride up here and steal my tv and rape my daughter? Hell no. They should build another highway. Where? That's not my problem.

3- This list does not have enough transit and there's been a change in the makeup in the legislature. I promise there will be a wave of democratic pressure going through the general assembly. There will be a 75% transit on the list next year. Nevermind all the evidence to the contrary.

We’ll improve the system one day …

[hamster]

i am going out on a limb to say that TSPLOST for the Atlanta region is going to fail based on the latest results from Fulton County.

http://www.fultoncountyga.gov/county/election/results/

People want transportation improvements but I think that a lack of government trust and voting for an extra sales tax killed any chance of it passing.

Seriously, I hope the gvt. take some lessons from this. Next time add tolls, increase fares, and increase the gas tax to make those that use transit pay for it.

Also, talk to constituents about what projects they would be willing to pay an extra tax for, so that if there is another TSPLOST ballot, it will pass.

[Rail Claimore]

So Augusta and Columbus managed to pass it in their regions? My guess is that they focused mainly on roads and that these regions have been historically under-invested in the infrastructure department. I have a feeling that if a similar thing happened here in Alabama, the Huntsville/Decatur region would pass such a tax for similar reasons.

The TSPLOST failure isn't what's going to cause Atlanta's growth to slow. The way I see it, Atlanta's growth was already plateauing this decade with stagnant per capita income and a whole host of other economic issues being symptoms of underlying structural problems. The TSPLOST was a chance to perhaps re-start the engine, but Atlanta is heading for slower growth in the coming decades. Houston and Dallas (I mention them because they're Atlanta's closest peers) were quite smart to work with developers over the past few decades to preserve rights of way for new freeways and tollways. As a result, they have the needed bones to continue growing and I suspect these two metros will continue to see growth of 1 million, possibly even 2 million a decade (that's Los Angeles-level growth right there).