Burnaby Updates

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Would be a good time to point out Derek Corrigan's billion-dollar rainy day fund.

I think that fund has already been massively reduced, as Burnaby has been splurging hundreds of millions left and right on community amenities which, granted, is where a lot of it should be spent.

[WBC]

Building a brand new commercial building to house the city hall at the time when most organizations are making hybrid work permanent and thus increasing office space availability is way out of touch. And yes, I know, the City of Burnaby employs non-office workers as well, but they seem to have a permanent home at my Kingsway and Nelson Starbucks, so I think we are good there too.

Joking aside, you could probably find office space in Metrotown if you really need it for the cities public facing departments at least. I am not sure what the city thinks that having a Metrotown location is going to do for the citizenry. Most people never go to city hall, with the exception of older folks who feel a need to pay their tax bills in person while bitching about them.

The City of Burnaby seems to be on a roll with out of touch idea. First they wanted to build a garbage processing facility in the park, then they wanted to move the city hall to Metrotown. They are still building the bike overpass over highway (now doubled in price) which has dubious value given its location. And they also leveled CG Brown pool and then concluded that the cost are out of control and are now looking for a new design. The proposal to cover the Central Park pool also got nowhere after backlash and the crazy cost associated with it. All these proposals cost a lot of money to prepare and I bet include a lot of expensive consultants, designers, architects, etc.

I have no problem with the city spending some of the reserve infrastructure funds on capital projects. But they should figure out what priorities should be and not just go from one idea to the next and then give up as soon as there is some controversy about it.

As a Metrotown resident, I would welcome a new Bonsor Rec Center with a new pool or at least some pool upgrades. I am very much in favor of doing a linear park around the Sky Trains which seems to be in the works. And I would like them to complete the North-South Bike connections through Metrotown and Brentwood as opposed to obsessing over this highway overpass in the middle of nowhere. Pushing for SFU gondola would be another high priority project for me - yes I know that's Translink, but the city has not exactly welcomed it with open arms.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WBC

Pushing for SFU gondola would be another high priority project for me - yes I know that's Translink, but the city has not exactly welcomed it with open arms.

Never forget that Joey Shithead was against the SFU gondola because Burnaby Mountain is "wearing out".

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ation-findings

We need to protect Burnaby Mountain Conservation Area. Burnaby Mountain, to me, is the crown jewel of Burnaby, but it’s overused and wearing out from the amount of people using it. To me, it doesn’t make sense,” said Keithley.

[madog222]

^Yeah that was strange, anyway Burnaby Mountain Gondola is ‘happening’ the city doesn’t need to push for it. Full business case is in progress.

Originally Posted by WBC

The City of Burnaby seems to be on a roll with out of touch idea. First they wanted to build a garbage processing facility in the park,

I thought it was a compost processing facility on greenfield industrial designated land.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by madog222

^Yeah that was strange, anyway Burnaby Mountain Gondola is ‘happening’ the city doesn’t need to push for it. Full business case is in progress.



I thought it was a compost processing facility on greenfield industrial designated land.

No, they acquired a chunk of land in Big Bend area next to the incinerator in early 2000s and asked electorate for permission to add it to parkland in a referendum. The land is pretty wild with forest and bird habitat (I biked this summer to check it out). Then they came up with the idea last year to build compost processing and methane gas capture facility on this land. The people complained massively through Burnaby Now and the city backed off.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think that fund has already been massively reduced, as Burnaby has been splurging hundreds of millions left and right on community amenities which, granted, is where a lot of it should be spent.

Not really if I understand the city's budget...
https://www.burnaby.ca/sites/default...nformation.pdf

Check out Burnaby's reserve against the rest of BC
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...tory-1.6699074

They seem to have 2.1 Billion in short and long terms investments on the books as of 2022. I am not sure if all of that is designated for Capital funding or is some of that used to pay pensions, etc.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by WBC

The City of Burnaby seems to be on a roll with out of touch idea. First they wanted to build a garbage processing facility in the park, then they wanted to move the city hall to Metrotown. They are still building the bike overpass over highway (now doubled in price) which has dubious value given its location. And they also leveled CG Brown pool and then concluded that the cost are out of control and are now looking for a new design. The proposal to cover the Central Park pool also got nowhere after backlash and the crazy cost associated with it. All these proposals cost a lot of money to prepare and I bet include a lot of expensive consultants, designers, architects, etc.

Good write-up and the list sure is long and even then you missed one, the quickly scratched idea about turning the Central Park stadium into something of a destination.

The debacle about the garbage processing facility was very stupid, too. People dishonestly talked about it like they would be razing the entire park, whereas they were only going to nip a small corner of it. People also made it sound like it's a world-class bird sanctuary, whereas in reality it is a tiny forest surrounded by industrial land. It is also always empty from people, as there is nothing to see or do there, so they should have built the facility next to and already existing one.

[vanman]

^That facility would have removed a huge chunk of what little green space remains around the foreshore. I'm not surprised in the least the backlash that proposal got.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The new aquatic centre seemed alright... except it turns out City Hall doesn't have the money and so it's getting watered down into something cheaper.

[Spr0ckets]

They probably didn't do themselves any favours by letting that $850 Million estimate cost (for mostly wish-list items that would almost certainly never have gotten built in the final proposal; They were never going to get or fit a convention center or events center (at a cost of more than half the estimated figure, at $460 Million or more) on that site along with a new city hall, new library, all while still having some segment of the plaza still available) leak out before the public consultation they planned to have.

That gave the "anti-relocate" crowd all the ammunition they needed to agitate and essentially kill the proposal before it was even a project.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentionally leaked for that specific reason by some from inside City Hall who were against the idea.

And to highlight the inconsitency of those arguing against the relocation, you have some saying on the one hand that they move would be terrible because it would increase traffic congestion and parking issues in an area already rife with it (The usual boilerplate NIMBY complaint any time any major development is proposed not; not just this City Hall relocation), while on the other hand you have the suggestion that no one visits City hall anyway (Except for older folks and retirees, who ostensibly don't drive, and whom you would think would welcome it being relocated to somewhere close to a major transit hub and a more accessible location).

Both things can't be true.

Hurley himself (playing peak "politician" with this), claims that the change of plans is good because “most people want [City Hall] to remain where it is.” - which isn't even true based on their own survey on the issue, in which 33% chose the "None of the Above" option (that would ostensibly include those that didn't want it to move) against the 46% that chose the Civic Square/ Library location. All while acting as if he's blindsided by that estimated cost, as if he wasn't behind the closed doors where this was being proposed to being with and knew all along that this is what it would potentially take.

It's all very funny,....even while it's not.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

They probably didn't do themselves any favours by letting that $850 Million estimate cost (for mostly wish-list items that would almost certainly never have gotten built in the final proposal; They were never going to get or fit a convention center or events center (at a cost of more than half the estimated figure, at $460 Million or more) on that site along with a new city hall, new library, all while still having some segment of the plaza still available) leak out before the public consultation they planned to have.

Is this true? Any fool could see there is no space for a convention centre on that plot while still retaining some green space, let alone adding the other functions.

And besides, why would there need to be another performance space here when the (admittedly preliminary) plan is to integrate a performing arts space into the redevelopment adjacent to the bus loop?

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Is this true? Any fool could see there is no space for a convention centre on that plot while still retaining some green space, let alone adding the other functions.

And besides, why would there need to be another performance space here when the (admittedly preliminary) plan is to integrate a performing arts space into the redevelopment adjacent to the bus loop?

That was (one of) the (original) plans.
And ostensibly even the mall owners Ivanhoe Cambridge were on board
(with the idea being they could redevelop the entire area that the bus loop currently sits on now to build a tower on top or adjacent to said even space - while the bus loop was relocated nearby).
Their masterplan concept proposal to break up the mall even showed what is envisioned as that event space at the current bus loop location.

But Translink were, and still are utterly against relocating the bus loop from its current location.
(presumably to south of Central Avenue), and that pretty much kills any notion of an event space in that area.

I think it's one of those weird situations where Ivanhoe cambridge owns the land but Translink owns the right-of-way rights to use the bus loop area, and can veto any plans to redevelop it.
It might be why this most recent idea was mooted to have it combined with a potential Library/City Hall redevelopment at the Civic plaza.
But yes, you're right - there's virtually no space in that block to include all those programs (City Hall, New Library, Open space plaza and Event space/Convention centre).

Ironically if they had voted to go ahead with relocating City hall, it would have left them with a lot of land available to use to create a new convention center at the old Deer Lake site.
But they seem to want such a convention center or event space likewise located in their Metrotown "Downtown" core as well or thereabouts.

Anyway, it's all moot now.

At the end of the day, - regardless of the recent refurbishments - they're going to eventually replace the entire library with a new building as the current building strains to service the growing population of the area.
And they're obviously building a new city hall from scratch, albeit at it's current location.
And they've already approved relocating the RCMP facility for a new one with a price tag of $160 million.

Which means when all is said and done, the total price tag is still going to end up being right around that, close-to-$1 billion that everyone is so up in arms about right now (probably even more, since the longer it takes to redevelop stuff the more expensive it becomes to do so)


EDIT :

Here's the image from Ivanhoe Cambridge's concept proposal from 2017 for the mall redevelopment that aws approved by the city :-
But as stated, at last check Translink are adamantly against relocating the bus loop from its current location (Which is where the events center building is proposed to be), and I would imagine that's what spurred the idea of combining it with the city hall/library revelopment proposal plan.:-




Also, from Daily Hive's report on the story, quoting Hurley's comments:-

"Hurley said the estimated $838 million cost figure for the Metrotown redevelopment “scared me and others,” as it would have not only gone towards building a new City Hall but also the cost of replacing existing community and recreational facilities on the site, such as the library at Civic Square, as well as the planned Metrotown convention and event centre."

source: -

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...tion-cancelled

They were delusional if they ever thought an Events space or Convention center would be able to work within such a redevelopment proposal.
And if the cost estimate for that alone is close to half a billion, then it's no surprise that their overall estimated cost was what it was, and eventually became the poison pill that led to the proposal's death.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

I think it's one of those weird situations where Ivanhoe cambridge owns the land but Translink owns the right-of-way rights to use the bus loop area, and can veto any plans to redevelop it.

Is there any reason an events centre couldn't be built on a deck over the bus loop? Does Translink have any say in the air above that space?

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Is there any reason an events centre couldn't be built on a deck over the bus loop? Does Translink have any say in the air above that space?

Aside from disrupting the bus loop operations during construction, and probably costing slightly more to raise it by the height required for the bus loop, I don't see why not

Would actually be pretty cool to have a modern integrated bus loop at the bottom of it.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Is there any reason an events centre couldn't be built on a deck over the bus loop? Does Translink have any say in the air above that space?

Originally Posted by mcj

Aside from disrupting the bus loop operations during construction, and probably costing slightly more to raise it by the height required for the bus loop, I don't see why not

Would actually be pretty cool to have a modern integrated bus loop at the bottom of it.

Maybe part of the reason Translink might not be so keen on the idea of a construction atop the bus loop (and also why they refused to relocate it when Ivanhoe wanted to do their Metro Tower IV there), might have to do with the fact that some of the buses that run through the loop are tethered and need that significant overhead overrun for the power lines.

And any new construction for an overhead events space (read : live loads) needing all that structural load transferred down without adding columns to the bus lanes below, would need significant transfer slabs or slab bands or considerably deep steel girders which might impact how much headroom they have left over for any tethered bus power lines.

Translink may not have a say in what happens in the air above the space above the slab that sits atop the loop, but I would bet they have some say on what happens to that slab in light of those lines.

I'm just speculating here.

But it would indeed be pretty cool if they were ever able to do that.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

They probably didn't do themselves any favours by letting that $850 Million estimate cost (for mostly wish-list items that would almost certainly never have gotten built in the final proposal; They were never going to get or fit a convention center or events center (at a cost of more than half the estimated figure, at $460 Million or more) on that site along with a new city hall, new library, all while still having some segment of the plaza still available) leak out before the public consultation they planned to have.

That gave the "anti-relocate" crowd all the ammunition they needed to agitate and essentially kill the proposal before it was even a project.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentionally leaked for that specific reason by some from inside City Hall who were against the idea.

And to highlight the inconsitency of those arguing against the relocation, you have some saying on the one hand that they move would be terrible because it would increase traffic congestion and parking issues in an area already rife with it (The usual boilerplate NIMBY complaint any time any major development is proposed not; not just this City Hall relocation), while on the other hand you have the suggestion that no one visits City hall anyway (Except for older folks and retirees, who ostensibly don't drive, and whom you would think would welcome it being relocated to somewhere close to a major transit hub and a more accessible location).

Both things can't be true.

Hurley himself (playing peak "politician" with this), claims that the change of plans is good because “most people want [City Hall] to remain where it is.” - which isn't even true based on their own survey on the issue, in which 33% chose the "None of the Above" option (that would ostensibly include those that didn't want it to move) against the 46% that chose the Civic Square/ Library location. All while acting as if he's blindsided by that estimated cost, as if he wasn't behind the closed doors where this was being proposed to being with and knew all along that this is what it would potentially take.

It's all very funny,....even while it's not.

If I work at City Hall, I rather work at Metrotown than in the middle of nowhere, considering there would be great lunch options. However, if I were a contractor trying to pay for a permit fee or to submit drawings, then I would prefer that they stay put since I would want to park my huge truck at a free parking lot away from traffic.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Somehow Vancouver's contractors manage to make it work at 12th and Broadway. This is a cost problem, not a location problem.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Vin

If I work at City Hall, I rather work at Metrotown than in the middle of nowhere, considering there would be great lunch options. However, if I were a contractor trying to pay for a permit fee or to submit drawings, then I would prefer that they stay put since I would want to park my huge truck at a free parking lot away from traffic.

Who says you have to drive your long box crew cab F-450 to city hall to drop off paperwork? I have a feeling people don't generally bring those kinds of vehicles to the current city hall, but I could be mistaken.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Somehow Vancouver's contractors manage to make it work at 12th and Broadway. This is a cost problem, not a location problem.

It's a location problem for people who are only willing to drive somewhere (or want people who aren't driving to not get there!)

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Somehow Vancouver's contractors manage to make it work at 12th and Broadway. This is a cost problem, not a location problem.

12th and Cambie I assume you meant.

I walk by City Hall all the time, and actually the permitting office at 10th and Cambie specifically. There's very few trucks parked around either area.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Vin

If I work at City Hall, I rather work at Metrotown than in the middle of nowhere, considering there would be great lunch options. However, if I were a contractor trying to pay for a permit fee or to submit drawings, then I would prefer that they stay put since I would want to park my huge truck at a free parking lot away from traffic.

I imagine most people submitting drawings or paying permit fees are not driving their huge trucks there to do so, on the off-chance they have to waste time hunting for parking, and if they do have to find some and pay for it, I suspect they expense it to their deep-pocketed developer clients.