DENVER | Main Development Thread #6

[Denver Dweller]

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/r...mA+ElKTwGoSbqOBYu5F/O7W7Amf&t=1438379156

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Denver Dweller

http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/r...mA+ElKTwGoSbqOBYu5F/O7W7Amf&t=1438379156

To be called Gauge by Zeppelin.

Photo courtesy of Dynia Architects via 9News.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by balugajames

I am also proud to be an American... That doesn't mean I condone dropping atomic weapons on people...

Whats your point? Because I praised Denver's past decisions I am now immediately on board with T-Rex? I personally would have rather seen the train on its own route, having it along the freeway is bad design and not conducive to 'using a train', but I know concessions had to be made, and joining those projects was optimal. This is not the case for I-70.

Optimally I would say, fix the bridge and leave it alone. I don't care too much about tearing it out necessarily but I am definitely against putting a major investment there given all the other things we need. Its about what's important... To me I-70 is not that important between I-25 and Quebec... Definitely not worth a few billion dollars and 10 years of grind. Force through traffic to use E-470, or 76/270 and toll one of the 3 lanes in each direction... Problem solved, 1 billion in the bank!

If millennials can fit 2/3 people in a studio, we can fit a few more cars on our already overly invested freeways!

If only you could see the paradigm you live in and free yourself!!!

Cheers!

Perhaps you could explain what this paradigm is?

Well the viaduct has already been fixed. It is at the point where the repairs need repairs. This set of roadway is literally crumbling infrastructure.

Lastly, do you really want a response to the millennial comment...?

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Would you still swell, fever, and exclaim in joy if I told you I loved Colorado, and swore my undying loyalty to Article II of the Colorado Constitution? Or do we have to drag Washington into this?

Hell, if there's anybody on this forum who relies on free exchange of ideas to avoid being locked in irons (or bike chains?), it's me.

Really?? This is coming from the same guy that for years ranted and raved against needless ornamentation on buildings. Actually, I think you bugged out on my ass over the final design of the Four Seasons Teatro Tower.

Please I love Colotecture more than I do parking lots. Yeah yeah 2020 Lawrence looks like shit from many angles but it's better than a f-ing parking lot. Jesus I love opinions...they're like assholes and I hope all of us have one...but when I feel like I'm back in high school and only the pretty ones are popular and get all the dates and get to go to the prom and get pregnant at age 16 and...well you catch my drift.

Opinions really are wonderful but the same bullshit over and over and over is so tiring. Hence why I dont even really go look at DI.com's comments any more. Everyone has an opinion, but no one fesses up a design that they think would be better or think further than the surface into what the building means to the neighborhood or to the thousands of new people moving here looking for a place to live.

Ahhh screw it. Just wasting my breath...

[bunt_q]

Wasn't me complaining about the final Four Seasons design, I was AWOL for most of Four Seasons, playing in the desert. I've ranted against granite countertops in every unit, but never against building ornamentation that I recall. (I am a big fan of Colotecture, though.). That said, I almost never criticize architecture, only a few buildings I've jumped in on over the years. It's massing that riles me up. That's a really new phenomenon - definitely wasn't a common refrain from the critics even 5 years ago. The ocean liners have mostly been built in the last 5 (maybe 7) years. I don't think people are reading very closely if they think that the public outcry today is exactly the same as it was years ago.

Also, wanting better building articulation and massing is not the same as opposing a project, I think most people are very much aware of the value of a project to the neighborhood and overall affordability (excluding the NIMBYs, but that's not who we're talking about). Unless you buy into the notion that doing the same things here that many other cities do through their zoning codes will just stop construction, but that's ridiculous, we no longer have to settle for provincialism.

Otherwise, I think the cheerleader crowd just doesn't read very closely. They don't like any negativity, it's the same crowd that gives 10th place blue ribbons at elementary school field days and participation trophies for everything. Nothing negative, ever. 'Murica!

And I, for one, always give what I would rather do. Hell, I'll draft you the ordinance. But I also don't post at DI, so there's that.

[comoneymaker]

Not sure if anyone has seen this. I forgot and missed to record the whole episode :-(. I hope this is not all they did for Denver and is just a part of it.

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/the-mile-high-city/16162

[Denver]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

To be called Gauge by Zeppelin.

Photo courtesy of Dynia Architects via 9News.

Will this building spell the end of the Wazee Union? While I really like the design of the building, I hate to see art studios being razed.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

But I also don't post at DI, so there's that.

Where is Ken these days, anyway?

[lumos]

Originally Posted by lumos

The base for the Kimpton Hotel crane sat for a couple of months whilst most of the excavations took place so perhaps it will be the same here. It is a rather shabby red base so I am not sure that Ryan will be impressed.

Guess I was wrong; the rest of the shabby crane is going up today. I thought for a moment coming down 20th that Wholefoods was getting a third crane. It certainly looks like a hive of activity nowadays.

[seventwenty]

King Soopers Union Station opens Aug 12.

That location, 1950 Chestnut Place, will include 86 free parking spaces for customers, a pharmacy with separate street entrance and, given its proximity to Coors Field, a bigger service desk to handle game-day demand for Rockies tickets.

...

Among the amenities are a Murray's Cheese Shop, with 130 specialty cheeses; Boar's Head Sandwich and Panini Shop; and Bistro at 5280, serving up burritos, salads, rotisserie chicken and other prepared meals.

A dine-in sushi shop features a "sushi train," a specialized conveyer belt that will carry sushi to customers sitting at the bar, McGannon said.

The store's Starbucks, which boasts an outdoor patio along 20th Street, will stay open until midnight — much later than most in-store locations.

The store will also offer outside tailgate specials on Rockies game days, McGannon said. "A lot of emphasis in this store is to be local and a reflection of us being a Colorado company."

...

Upstairs, Elan Union Station, the 314-unit apartment complex that shares the building, was already 50 percent leased as of Friday, community manager Nikki Willis said.

The first residents moved in May 1. Construction on the final units, on the side of the complex closest to Coors Field, is expected to be finished in October, she said.

The studio, 1-, 2- and 3-bedroom apartments, which feature quartz countertops, bamboo floors and smart thermostats, range from $1,475 to $4,305 a month, according to the property website. Community amenities include outdoor courtyards with a year-round swimming pool and bocce ball court; tech center with private workstations; yoga/barre studio; dog washing station; and a bike- and ski-repair shop.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by lumos

Guess I was wrong; the rest of the shabby crane is going up today. I thought for a moment coming down 20th that Wholefoods was getting a third crane. It certainly looks like a hive of activity nowadays.

Wait... What are we talking about? Did I miss a crane?

[rds70]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Wait... What are we talking about? Did I miss a crane?

The crane for Union Tower West went up today.

[TakeFive]

Easy Like Sunday Morning

Metro Denver Economic Development Corp CEO Tom Clark has acknowledged (via Forbes) that “Our ability to qualify for many relocation projects has gone down, and we are limited to competing for the top 3-4% of projects in terms of wages paid.” So is Denver peaking?

The Wall Street Journal recently had an interesting article about Denver.
Denver Job Market Lures Millennials
July 23, 2015 By Ana Campoy and Dan Frosch

DENVER—Millennials are flocking to the Mile High City, but it isn’t the nearby ski slopes, microbreweries or urban hiking trails that are attracting them: It’s the jobs.

A shared office space called Industry, in the popular River North Art District, stands as an example of the entrepreneurial forces that are luring a flood of young professionals here.

Yes, ultimately jobs are important.

“You don’t move just because some place is cool,” said Aaron Duke, a 39-year-old San Francisco transplant and CirrusMD employee. “You’ve also got to be able to earn a buck.”

The article is a fun read and of course the comments are even better entertainment.

My Fantasy
Facebook executes a lease for 25 floors of the new Hines office building at 1144 15th Street.

Credit: Robert Galbraith/Reuters via Business Insider

[lumos]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Wait... What are we talking about? Did I miss a crane?

And Wholefoods whilst I am here


And Kimpton Hotel (and bathers in Platform pool, sorry, I did not notice you until I got home - but then again I did not clone you out either).


And the lovely 1601

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Wasn't me complaining about the final Four Seasons design, I was AWOL for most of Four Seasons, playing in the desert. I've ranted against granite countertops in every unit, but never against building ornamentation that I recall. (I am a big fan of Colotecture, though.). That said, I almost never criticize architecture, only a few buildings I've jumped in on over the years. It's massing that riles me up. That's a really new phenomenon - definitely wasn't a common refrain from the critics even 5 years ago. The ocean liners have mostly been built in the last 5 (maybe 7) years. I don't think people are reading very closely if they think that the public outcry today is exactly the same as it was years ago.

Also, wanting better building articulation and massing is not the same as opposing a project, I think most people are very much aware of the value of a project to the neighborhood and overall affordability (excluding the NIMBYs, but that's not who we're talking about). Unless you buy into the notion that doing the same things here that many other cities do through their zoning codes will just stop construction, but that's ridiculous, we no longer have to settle for provincialism.

Otherwise, I think the cheerleader crowd just doesn't read very closely. They don't like any negativity, it's the same crowd that gives 10th place blue ribbons at elementary school field days and participation trophies for everything. Nothing negative, ever. 'Murica!

And I, for one, always give what I would rather do. Hell, I'll draft you the ordinance. But I also don't post at DI, so there's that.

I'm probably one of the cheerleaders who annoys you so, but I have a couple of problems with the idea of changing the law to get slightly more appealing massing. I would like to see how the law could be written to accommodate changes in the economy so that when it is inevitably less like a money printing machine for developers they aren't still forced to take on even slightly increased costs. Because, you know that the new citizens of Denver are NEVER EVER going to let a law be altered once it's there, to favor developers. I can see the hipster class there literally twisting their handle bar mustaches while laughing at the developers they've screwed over if a lot of requirements are put in while times are great and make it difficult to build when times are good, let alone rough. You're already going through torture trying to get something, anything, done to alleviate the construction defect law.

And for my part, I really couldn't care less about the massing. I honestly don't see how my experience is any better looking through an urban canyon with lots of setbacks and massing gimmicks than it is with large walls on either side. My mind can very quickly adjust to enjoy the differences in sightlines being broken up by the streets at the end of every block. AS long as there is enough retail and things to do on the bottom floors the city is better for it. As long as enough truly historic structures are protected in between the city is better for it (not under contract = historic structures).

Having just spent 6 days last week walking around Denver with family I still notice the sidewalks aside from 16th street are still nearly empty in most of downtown. That's what I really care about when I'm there. There has to be people in a sufficient critical mass to support the things everyone wants for downtown. If we don't get enough people to make our first subway line until we get 50 cruise ships parked in former parking lots I say bring them the F*ck on. Ditto for making the Colfax/Broadway line not just feasible but necessary to keep the city from choking (truly choking - not I can't find a parking space in 10 seconds choking).

These, for the most part, are buildings that are filling vacuums now, especially in AS. They are most likely not permanent. They will most likely be the first to be razed when there is no blank land space left and going taller is the only solution left. They are likely going to become cheap/affordable condos in several decades. They will be where all the plebes live and more interesting buildings will be built for people like me who will want to show everyone else that I've worked harder and demand a slightly better place to live (since we all know I'm incapable of writing a post here without sarcasm that was it).

Chiding us for cheering that they are better than parking lots is just a little bit disingenuous. Because they most certainly ARE better than parking lots. The developers are working within the laws that are there and for me that's great. We have a 100% perfect example in the exact same city with the exact same market conditions of what happens when a well intentioned law utterly and completely destroys construction in an entire category. We already have an ordinance that seems fair and adaptable to protect historic structures in the city as well that even people that actually understand the needs and wants of a city on this very board seem ok with abusing at the cost of development/progress. And while I may actually trust you Bunt to write a fair, malleable and adaptable ordinance for the city I definitely do NOT trust the other people in Denver (who vote militantly anti-development councilmembers to replace fair and reasonable ones when their property gets threatened with "high rises") and many people on this very board to do the same.

[balugajames]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

balugajames ... I-70 is one of the primary commercial corridors for moving goods and services as well as people. It serves the heartland and is critical for moving goods into and through the mountains.

Your angst should be directed at those who didn't lay out downtown Denver better and then compounded the problem by gentrifying an industrial area.

I understand its current usage. Remember I am not talking about I-70 as a whole, merely I-25 to Quebec.

I am simply sharing an opinion not an 'angst'. I think our monies could be better utilized in upgraded other infrastructure.

Are you all telling me that if an earth quake hit the viaduct today and it collapsed that Denver itself would fall into perpetual gridlock? I would guess not.

With dynamic systems and grids you will realize that our infrastructure as built today 'without' this so called 'critical' artery would simply change traffic patterns and looking at a map there are a LOT of alternatives.. Some people's commutes would increase, others would find better alternatives because they had to look.

I understand there are many business that need the freeway and are currently directly in access to it, but you have to also remember there used to be families that had neighborhoods so that point is MUTE... Its just life and the ever changing realities which citizens and businesses must cope with and looking again at a map. At most a few minutes will be added to the commute.

By moving the route north anyone who would have taken the I-70 into downtown will likely find another route. We have plenty of roads, buses and trains to get people where they need to go (especially on that corridor) and we need to stop subsidizing lazyness with money we don't have.

Anyone driving through to the mountains could either use I-225 > I-25 -> 6 or I-70 - I-76 - I-270 -> back to I-70 or simply E-470 (Toll)-> I-25 -> I-70. This doesn't even mention smaller streets.
So there you have 3 alternative freeway routes which only add a few minutes to a likely cross state trip.

Anyone going south can uses I-225 or E-470, anyone going north can use I-270 or E-470. Many here talk about spending billions as though we have it in our pocket book and even belittle others to convey how stupid they are for having other ideas.

Maybe some of you should look at yourself in the mirror, or your kids, or wife and think about why the heck we are here...

We are talking about a few minute addition to some peoples commute. A new way of thinking for those that transition to other modes. Billions saved and a few less miles of freeway to maintain. Fresher air in the area and a final realization that we are not trapped by our past and in fact have more options than we give ourselves.

[balugajames]

Originally Posted by Denver

Perhaps you could explain what this paradigm is?

Well the viaduct has already been fixed. It is at the point where the repairs need repairs. This set of roadway is literally crumbling infrastructure.

Lastly, do you really want a response to the millennial comment...?

The paradigm our society has built around infrastructure, harks on the idea that life will "stop or slow to a standstill" if a road or freeway is slimmed or removed. This is exactly the sentiment I hear now which I utterly disagree with.

Our infrastructure directs our usage and behavior much more so than the other way around. Sure there are some embedded uses in that corridor but most would be fine with their freeway access moving a few minutes north.

People use I-70 because its convenient and we pay for that. If it was gone they would simple find some other route and maybe it won't be so convenient, but then again I don't see the government buying people dishwashers to make their life more convenient, nor do I think it should.

Other modes/routes exist on that corridor to take the load of downtown bound traffic as most of it will not traverse north to I-270 as some naive person may think. All through traffic has plenty of alternatives (see above)

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

We have a 100% perfect example in the exact same city with the exact same market conditions of what happens when a well intentioned law utterly and completely destroys construction in an entire category. We already have an ordinance that seems fair and adaptable to protect historic structures in the city as well that even people that actually understand the needs and wants of a city on this very board seem ok with abusing at the cost of development/progress. And while I may actually trust you Bunt to write a fair, malleable and adaptable ordinance for the city I definitely do NOT trust the other people in Denver (who vote militantly anti-development councilmembers to replace fair and reasonable ones when their property gets threatened with "high rises") and many people on this very board to do the same.

That's fair, although I can't tell if you are alleging incompetence or utterly corrupt motives with respect to the construction defect ordinance. I don't think these are unintended consequences at all - I think what is happening was perfectly predictable to the drafters, and they just didn't care. It's pretty rare, I think, that benign intentions lead to drastic consequences. Where we see drastic things happen, more often than not, somebody was thinking it through carefully.

So I see your skepticism. Although I will say that for all of the controversy and relatively minor delays, the historic preservation ordinance does appear to be working. I cannot think of an instance when forcible listing has actually been successful at stopping a project (the delays in west highland were for the lawsuit, which was a straight zoning challenge for the most part). Now, some of us might think the landmark commission should be a little broader in its definition of what meets the historic criteria. But the process itself has mostly worked.

Same for the Council - despite militant anti-growth folks out there, the process has usually worked. Very few (if any?) rezonings have been denied in the end. That could change, but it's all speculation at this point. With the data we have, it has worked. Now, have citizens caused unnecessary delays and friction? Definitely. But that is OUR fault for not having an equally strong pro-development pushback. I think it's impressive, actually, that the system has held out as well as it has in the face of such strong and one-sided pressure. A little bit of help from the citizenry wouldn't hurt.

I don't think we have any examples of local laws so bad, or local processes so rife with abuse, to justify stopping all efforts at improving the same. I hear a bit of reflexive anti-government skepticism - Florida will do that to anyone - but I think we're a long ways from giving up on the ability of reasonable regulations to make positive changes here.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

That's fair, although I can't tell if you are alleging incompetence or utterly corrupt motives with respect to the construction defect ordinance. I don't think these are unintended consequences at all - I think what is happening was perfectly predictable to the drafters, and they just didn't care. It's pretty rare, I think, that benign intentions lead to drastic consequences. Where we see drastic things happen, more often than not, somebody was thinking it through carefully.

So I see your skepticism. Although I will say that for all of the controversy and relatively minor delays, the historic preservation ordinance does appear to be working. I cannot think of an instance when forcible listing has actually been successful at stopping a project (the delays in west highland were for the lawsuit, which was a straight zoning challenge for the most part). Now, some of us might think the landmark commission should be a little broader in its definition of what meets the historic criteria. But the process itself has mostly worked.

Same for the Council - despite militant anti-growth folks out there, the process has usually worked. Very few (if any?) rezonings have been denied in the end. That could change, but it's all speculation at this point. With the data we have, it has worked. Now, have citizens caused unnecessary delays and friction? Definitely. But that is OUR fault for not having an equally strong pro-development pushback. I think it's impressive, actually, that the system has held out as well as it has in the face of such strong and one-sided pressure. A little bit of help from the citizenry wouldn't hurt.

I don't think we have any examples of local laws so bad, or local processes so rife with abuse, to justify stopping all efforts at improving the same. I hear a bit of reflexive anti-government skepticism - Florida will do that to anyone - but I think we're a long ways from giving up on the ability of reasonable regulations to make positive changes here.

I'm not sure what I was alleging either to be honest. I'm willing to give most people who actually write and pass laws a certain benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. So I suppose more incompetence? I'm WAY more inclined to believe stupidity or just unintended consequences than actual competent bad intentions (Florida does that to my brain too). But that really doesn't matter, the effect has been the same. Either someone gets the ball rolling with a benign effort to change things and nefarious anti development types add things that have readily predictable negative consequences or well meaning lawmakers pass a bill that only works in boomtimes with no mechanism for changing with different conditions.

I can't really argue with anything you bring up regarding the historic preservation and zoning changes. I do need to go take a shower though. I can't argue with your impression of reflexive anti regulation.. and that's scary for me.

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by balugajames

I understand its current usage. Remember I am not talking about I-70 as a whole, merely I-25 to Quebec.

I am simply sharing an opinion not an 'angst'. I think our monies could be better utilized in upgraded other infrastructure.

Are you all telling me that if an earth quake hit the viaduct today and it collapsed that Denver itself would fall into perpetual gridlock? I would guess not.

With dynamic systems and grids you will realize that our infrastructure as built today 'without' this so called 'critical' artery would simply change traffic patterns and looking at a map there are a LOT of alternatives.. Some people's commutes would increase, others would find better alternatives because they had to look.

I understand there are many business that need the freeway and are currently directly in access to it, but you have to also remember there used to be families that had neighborhoods so that point is MUTE... Its just life and the ever changing realities which citizens and businesses must cope with and looking again at a map. At most a few minutes will be added to the commute.

By moving the route north anyone who would have taken the I-70 into downtown will likely find another route. We have plenty of roads, buses and trains to get people where they need to go (especially on that corridor) and we need to stop subsidizing lazyness with money we don't have.

Anyone driving through to the mountains could either use I-225 > I-25 -> 6 or I-70 - I-76 - I-270 -> back to I-70 or simply E-470 (Toll)-> I-25 -> I-70. This doesn't even mention smaller streets.
So there you have 3 alternative freeway routes which only add a few minutes to a likely cross state trip.

Anyone going south can uses I-225 or E-470, anyone going north can use I-270 or E-470. Many here talk about spending billions as though we have it in our pocket book and even belittle others to convey how stupid they are for having other ideas.

Maybe some of you should look at yourself in the mirror, or your kids, or wife and think about why the heck we are here...

We are talking about a few minute addition to some peoples commute. A new way of thinking for those that transition to other modes. Billions saved and a few less miles of freeway to maintain. Fresher air in the area and a final realization that we are not trapped by our past and in fact have more options than we give ourselves.

Are you seriously kidding me with this??? Look at yourself in the mirror? Maybe you should look in the mirror. Look I'm really sorry, but we are nowhere close to being NYC with subways and alternate means of transportation. We are NOWHERE close to being a Paris or London and even those cities are jammed with cars. Do you even drive these stretches of roadway? Colorado Blvd? 40th St? Monaco? Dahlia? Holly? Have you been on I-70 through that stretch that you think should be ignored??? Oh wait, maybe you work from home so you don't have to deal with any of that. Or you ride your shiny bike everywhere. Well not everyone can do what you do. Some of us do have to own the horrible sin of a motor vehicle.

All this money you're thinking of saving will have to all be used to improve every single damn side street through that entire stretch of North East Denver. You're not saving anybody any clean air friend by letting cars idle at stop lights that are not timed and synchronized. And if you do actually drive around the metro area there are plenty of corridors where the lights are not timed effectively to allow good flow of traffic so cars sit and pollute. OMG this whole mentality about how evil the car is-I get it, I really do. I know it destroyed downtown Denver and many other downtowns across this country. I know we hate suburbs and we hate suburbanites with their 3.5 kiddies and SUVs and Vans. But the reality of it all is that these people exist and pay taxes and maybe...just maybe...they don't want to live downtown.

So all you're going to do my friend is move traffic into neighborhoods that don't want to see traffic in their neighborhoods...the increased noise, the increased pollution--yes just shift it to the neighborhoods that we havent cared about for years anyway.

You want to force the carless mentality down the throats of Denverites....fine. I know it will have to be done eventually, but until we have a meaningful intra- and intercity streetcar system that truly connect us to our retail and commercial destinations then I'm sorry like it's been said before you will need to pry my hands off my steering wheel.

I-70 needs to be fixed. Once that's out of the way then 270 perhaps? I dont know. The state has big plans for lots of highway upgrades. I don't think we need NEW additional highways, I just think we need to improve what we have and lets get behind the city of Denver to push out some type of screetcar system. I would certainly vote to raise my taxes to do that!

And by the way, it's MOOT point not mute.