Winnipeg Construction VIII - Page 25

oftheMoon · #**481** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 5:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrskylar

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/let-portage-and-main-breathe-222125611.html

Usually agree with TV on most issues but on the re-opening of P & M to pedestrian traffic I don't. Really don't see how allowing pedestrians to cross on top of the street will suddenly transform that part of down town into anything more than it already is.

If you go back just one block west of there to Portage and Fort, think about how more alive it feels with people crossing and mulling about in the TD (RBC) tower plaza area. Portage & Main could have that same feeling on its corners with life on the sidewalks. I can only see good and no harm by taking down the walls. Traffic will find a way to mange as it does at every other intersection downtown.

Jammon · #**482** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 9:14 PM**

I usually find myself in agreement with TV as well, but I am against this idea. Unless you are going to build a pedestrian overpass (a la Indianapolis), then it's not worth the effort. Scramble intersections are a nightmare and if you have ever been to TO would you note that they don't work well. The argument has long been that scramble intersections favour pedestrian traffic to vehicle traffic. IMHO, they don't work. I have been to most major cities in NA and most cities now are moving out of favour with the scramble intersection idea. A nightmare in the making.

trueviking · #**483** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 9:41 PM**

I don't really think a scramble intersection is the answer either.....its not necessary...I put it out there for discussion...the diagonal in particular is not required.

but it needs to be opened. all this crap about traffic is stupid...there are 25 stop lights with pedestrian crossings within 1km on portage and main....on portage there is one every 80 metres....why all of a sudden would there be traffic jams at main street?

imagine any other city with their main intersection turned into a free way on ramp....its unbelievable.

Cyro · #**484** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 10:29 PM**

Open it up by all means.I tried posting an article from the WFP by another writer that has posted on this forum here in Infrastructure. No takers. TrueViking has made it current again. He may know who I'm talking about.

Quote:

TV "imagine any other city with their main intersection turned into a free way on ramp....its unbelievable."

I can't imagine it either.

I'll wait the etc. 1.5 minutes for the flow of humanity to cross and to see people again on this "dead", windswept, devoid of life intersection. I'm patient..in what appears like a a very impatient City.

Andy6 · #**485** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 10:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trueviking

I don't really think a scramble intersection is the answer either.....its not necessary...I put it out there for discussion...the diagonal in particular is not required.

but it needs to be opened. all this crap about traffic is stupid...there are 25 stop lights with pedestrian crossings within 1km on portage and main....on portage there is one every 80 metres....why all of a sudden would there be traffic jams at main street?

imagine any other city with their main intersection turned into a free way on ramp....its unbelievable.

Other cities don't generally have a single intersection that is so important, though. What we have at Portage and Main is in part the price we pay for having no freeways. A scramble crossing would be difficult there ... Can you imagine people slipping on ice out in the middle of that football-field sized intersection in the wintertime with no safety island within 50 feet? I believe that they're already eliminating one of the scrambles in Toronto (of three that were created a couple of years ago) because it does slow traffic down quite a lot.

Cyro · #**486** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 11:02 PM**

• Video Link

Wigglez · #**487** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 11:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by drew

^ can't make it any worse.

Gotta agree with drew here, any change to that intersection will be good change...

What's currently there has all the charm of a eastern European - Soviet era - project. Only ours hasn't even been kept up as well

.

Acting like having people cross at P&M will cause traffic chaos is a little sad.. When you consider most of those people just go 1 block down in any direction and cross there. How is having people cross where they want to any worse than having them cross slightly down the street. You're going to be dealing with them either way...

As for the overall impact this will have on the intersection it's hard to say. The area is already built up and it would be difficult for the ground floor of the towers to change their layout to have a more pedestrian friendly streetscape. I doubt we will see new retail shops open up on the ground floor of these buildings if the street was open.

DancingDuck · #**488** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 11:10 PM**

Is it possible to open up the intersection, but not allow crossing at certain times? For example close it from 7-9am and 4-6 pm, but have it open all other times, thereby allowing people to cross when traffic volume is less, and not slowing cars down during rush hour.

WestEndWander · #**489** Posted **Sep 3, 2013, 11:40 PM**

I think that with proper design Portage and Main could finally live up to the legend of its name and function for both pedestrians and cars.

Opening up the iconic corner with a simple, smart, clean and modern redevelopment allows for the creation of a central node right at the historic heart of downtown. This could become our Times Square (extreme to compare N.Y to Wpg, yes I know, but scale it and contextualize it to our city.)

We speak of freeways and quick traffic flow on these streets (P&M) but sometimes I think we forget this intersection is right smack dab in the middle of downtown. I don't believe cars are meant to be moving through this part of downtown, or any part of downtown, at a high speed. Its part of creating a pedestrian friendly environment.
I have travelled to a majority of large cites throughout the world. I can honestly say that I have never seen another intersection like its kind, right in the middle of a cities downtown, that emphasizes the car over the pedestrian with the sort of pedestrian treatment that Portage and Main does.
No true "downtown" contains freeways, and has car moving through them at high rates of speed. They tend to exist on the peripheries and feed people into the core. Those that might actually have them are often currently figuring out how to remove them and put emphasis back on the pedestrian due to the divide they create in the urban fabric.

Safety and the proper integration of pedestrians and autos comes along with proper design. I think it can be done, and really change the face and tone of Portage and Main, and the whole downtown, for the better.

CoryB · #**490** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 12:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jammon

Scramble intersections are a nightmare and if you have ever been to TO would you note that they don't work well.

Scramble intersections work about as well as round-abouts do in Winnipeg, you need to look no further than Portage & Kennedy which is already a scramble intersection. Yes, most people don't even know it is a scramble intersection but traffic is stopped in all directions for pedestrians to cross.

trueviking · #**491** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 12:59 AM**

a little signage and some awareness and it will be fine...calgary did the same at eau claire...people figured it out....i dont necessarily believe that people should cross diagonally but the pedestrian priority intersection makes sense. it separates cars and people.

Andy, toronto has several intersections with similar traffic volumes and exponentially more pedestrians....nobody dies....if it slows traffic a bit, who cares?...what city measures itself by how fast it can funnel cars through its downtown?...we hardly have traffic issues in this city.

its all just fear of change....a stop light every 80m on portage...why does this one make it terrible?...its an embarrassment....imagine if they said yonge and bay would be barricaded....it would be out of the question...so why do we accept it here....the barricades are 1970's mentality...we are better than that today.

Lenin · #**492** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 1:22 AM**

For the last couple of days I have been searching for renderings done a few years back regarding possible redevelopments for Portage and Main. I believe it was an international design competition of some sort, but due to funding or whatever the project was shelved. I can't find the renderings online anymore, but if anybody else could I would really appreciate it.

The design that sticks out in my head - perhaps a Spanish firm's work, I believe - had the grade level of Portage and Main basically raised up a little, supported by cool red cantilevers over the intersection. This essentially turned the entire intersection into a bridge, and opened up the dark concourse area. Traffic wasn't effected negatively, and and the whole area became a lot more open, pedestrian friendly, and very multi - layered "big city."

Does anybody else remember this awesome design or where to find pics of this proposal out there? Any help would be appreciated. I thinks it's a cool proposal and it's a neat idea to start thinking about it again. I hope somebody out there knows what the hell I'm talkin' about....

Danny D Oh · #**493** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 2:07 AM**

They would have to do a very good job of synching the turn lights so that pedestrians would have a chance. I wonder if they can open up one side, crossing Portage on the east side of the intersection and Main on the south, without opening up the other piece where cars turn from Portage to Main going north.

Wigglez · #**494** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 2:52 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

They would have to do a very good job of synching the turn lights so that pedestrians would have a chance. I wonder if they can open up one side, crossing Portage on the east side of the intersection and Main on the south, without opening up the other piece where cars turn from Portage to Main going north.

Images of people flying everywhere after getting hit by cars as they attempt to cross comes to mind with that statement lol.

Why is spending money on pedestrian crossings on streets like Kenaston or Bishop acceptable when cars are doing 80kph? That has to be much more dangerous for people to cross than an intersection where cars are doing 50 at best (I say at best because the mix of traffic and CONSTANT traffic signals slows things down 90% of the time).

To be blunt I don't think there's going to be enough foot traffic at portage and main to cause this nightmarish hellscape of death and endless traffic jams. There needs to be more reason to actually walk that area for it to be a major problem, glass walls are not a reason to hang around.

Bdog · #**495** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 3:29 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by trueviking

...imagine if they said yonge and bay would be barricaded....it would be out of the question...so why do we accept it here...

But Yonge and Bay don't intersect, they're parallel.

trueviking · #**496** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 3:34 AM**

ha ha...oops..meant bloor and bay.

toronto sux.

trueviking · #**497** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 3:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenin

For the last couple of days I have been searching for renderings done a few years back regarding possible redevelopments for Portage and Main. I believe it was an international design competition of some sort, but due to funding or whatever the project was shelved. I can't find the renderings online anymore, but if anybody else could I would really appreciate it.

The design that sticks out in my head - perhaps a Spanish firm's work, I believe - had the grade level of Portage and Main basically raised up a little, supported by cool red cantilevers over the intersection. This essentially turned the entire intersection into a bridge, and opened up the dark concourse area. Traffic wasn't effected negatively, and and the whole area became a lot more open, pedestrian friendly, and very multi - layered "big city."

Does anybody else remember this awesome design or where to find pics of this proposal out there? Any help would be appreciated. I thinks it's a cool proposal and it's a neat idea to start thinking about it again. I hope somebody out there knows what the hell I'm talkin' about....

i wish those were still available somewhere...this was the winner.

http://www.winnipeg.ca/clkdmis/documents...age%20and%20main%20redesign%20report.pdf

DancingDuck · #**498** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 4:11 AM**

This article from the free press briefly explains the 2nd and 3rd place ideas, in addition to the one TV linked

http://www.bridgmancollaborative.ca/Media%20Files/Trees,%20Star%20Wars%20inspire%20architects.pdf

Unfortunately couldn't find anything on the entry that suggested raising the road...

trueviking · #**499** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 4:13 AM**

the fortess guy on twitter gave me a 'BIG' when describing his announcement on friday...that HAS to include some glossy images....will be interesting to see what they have put together....i know they are just getting started but it does seem like they will be giving us some eye candy to ooh and ahh over.

he was extolling the virtues of using local architects...i asked him which major Quebec city his local architects were based in?....he gave me an LOL.

Lenin · #**500** Posted **Sep 4, 2013, 4:15 AM**

Interesting design. Thanks for the link!