Third Harbour Crossing

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

The "as the crow flies" distance between Dalhousie and the Dingle can't be more than a few hundred metres. A system like this wouldn't even need to travel that far, theoretically. It doesn't need to be a be-all end-all to transit across the arm. I don't think there are a lot of logical start points from the mainland, being a fixed low-density area. If I worked at Dalhousie and lived in Spryfield or somewhere over there, I would likely drive (or bus, if an option was created) to the gondola, ride over and walk to Dal from there.

There certainly can be a benefit from a system like this. If even 500 people decided to use it, the drive down Herring Cove Rd to the rotary would become easier and ostensibly the drive down Quinpool and/or Oxford would become easier as well.

Thanks, you seem to get exactly what I meant here.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Trebuchets would probably be cheaper, though the insurance might be a bit more expensive.

Trebuchets are a little too hip for my own tastes. Although that would be a (possibly) fun and (definitely) quick commute!

[portapetey]

https://www.facebook.com/SpeedSociety/videos/1289670747716891/

[The Conductor]

It's odd, the thing that is most disturbing about Halifax from a visitor's point of view is that everyone who lives in the southern portions of both sides of the harbour who wish to get over to the other side or from any other part of the city wishing to get into the southern portions you are trapped on a bus for god awful amounts of time having to transfer buses and so on; because no 3rd crossing exists. No 3rd crossing means no ring road. No 3rd crossing means heavy transport downtown.

From what I understand the bridges are maxed out or near maxed out when it comes to existing traffic load - how can you people sit around and do nothing when the safety numbers are being maxed out with existing bridges?

a 3rd crossing means the public transit system can actually work for a change - keep ignoring the problem folks, danger awaits...Not good at all...

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by The Conductor

how can you people sit around and do nothing when the safety numbers are being maxed out with existing bridges?

I'm not exactly sure who "you people" is...

There's nothing unsafe about the current bridges. They can be a hassle traffic-wise during rush hour, but in the grand scheme of things the traffic isn't THAT bad. And a third crossing will be really expensive.

This is not to say a 3rd crossing is a bad idea and that we shouldn't be planning for one in the long term (say, if the port moves over to Dartmouth), but the sky isn't falling just because we don't have a 3rd crossing.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

I'm not exactly sure who "you people" is...

There's nothing unsafe about the current bridges. They can be a hassle traffic-wise during rush hour, but in the grand scheme of things the traffic isn't THAT bad. And a third crossing will be really expensive.

This is not to say a 3rd crossing is a bad idea and that we shouldn't be planning for one in the long term (say, if the port moves over to Dartmouth), but the sky isn't falling just because we don't have a 3rd crossing.

Imagine some unforeseen development - one of those oversized container ships making a mistake in navigation, some freak storm, a failure in the Big Lift project, terrorist activity, whatever - that takes out part of one of the existing bridges for an extended period of time. Put simply, day to day activities in this city would be screwed. Traffic would grind to a halt and there would be little mitigation possible. Transit is incapable of moving that many people, our street network is obsolete and does not have adequate capacity to handle it, and there are no viable alternative modes of transport available. The "new " bridge was built nearly a half-century ago. No real capacity has been added in all that time despite the area's significant growth. Work on a third crossing should already be seriously underway. But we cannot get our collective heads out of our... well, you know where.

[Hali87]

Well, there's the ferries..

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Well, there's the ferries..

Yes, that has always been a great way to get across the harbour. There aren't any traffic jams to disrupt the schedule.

If would be far cheaper to increase the crossing frequency if necessary.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Yes, that has always been a great way to get across the harbour. There aren't any traffic jams to disrupt the schedule.

If would be far cheaper to increase the crossing frequency if necessary.

Ferries are like bicycles. The people that use them love them, but they are slow, have limited capacity, and are not a solution to the transportation problems most people need to deal with.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ferries are like bicycles. The people that use them love them, but they are slow, have limited capacity, and are not a solution to the transportation problems most people need to deal with.

They're quicker than crossing the bridges during rush hour, and they're pretty frequent and above all, reliable. They're the one part of the transit system that actually works really well. There is surplus capacity and more capacity/more frequency could be added by adding more ferries (although there's probably an upper limit to how many ferries can be on each route - having too many would interfere with other traffic in the harbour.) They could definitely be part of a solution to transportation problems that most people crossing the harbour deal with, and they're arguably the most effective Halifax Transit service that currently exists.

All forms of transportation have limited capacity.

[dtown]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ferries are like bicycles. The people that use them love them, but they are slow, have limited capacity, and are not a solution to the transportation problems most people need to deal with.

Exactly. The ferries are great, but you should have seen them on the mornings that the Macdonald bridge was late to open. Jammed packed and some people who got there 5-10 minutes before the Dartmouth ferry was to depart were left waiting for the next one. If you wanted to increase peak service you would need to also upgrade the terminals so I'm not sure it's a feasible solution.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ferries are like bicycles. The people that use them love them, but they are slow, have limited capacity, and are not a solution to the transportation problems most people need to deal with.

There are the 70% modes of transportation, the 10% modes, and the 2% modes. Ideally I think a city is planned in a way that takes advantage of as many as possible, but some of the niche modes aren't going to work for everybody or even a large percentage of people.

It is good that the city planning department talks about targets like moving transit use from 11% to 17%, because that is realistic and useful, even if you are a motorist. Getting cycling up to 5 or 10% is useful too, assuming it costs less than 5 to 10% of the transportation budget, which not hard.

In Halifax I worry that a lot of infrastructure debates get shut down before they even begin because of vested interests who either don't want things built in their area or don't want to lose power, influence, and/or wages. There has never been a big public debate in Halifax around the planning consequences of building various new crossings combined with or traded off against other improvements like better transit. Everything is done piecemeal and a lot of potential projects are silently taken off the table entirely. There is no transportation authority to look at all of the options and champion what is best for the region.

There's likely a cheaper option than a third harbour crossing, a bridge across the Northwest Arm that connects to Northwest Arm Drive. This would allow trucks to avoid the downtown area and would open up Spryfield to suburban development that is currently pushed farther out.

This possibility for the most part isn't even debated because of the small number of well-connected residents in this area who don't want it.

There's also a group that is lobbying to preserve the Williams-Colpitt lake area. I'm sure that could be a nice wilderness area but that's not how the city should look at that issue; instead the debate should be focused on the trade-offs. What is gained from this wilderness area that couldn't be from another one? What does the city lose by blocking it off from development? I suspect the only net win is that it's better for people who happen to live next to it, and that it's worse for a much larger number of people and actually worse for the environment, because it's more expensive land and the municipality could preserve a much larger area farther away from the urban area with the same amount of cash.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by dtown

Exactly. The ferries are great, but you should have seen them on the mornings that the Macdonald bridge was late to open. Jammed packed and some people who got there 5-10 minutes before the Dartmouth ferry was to depart were left waiting for the next one. If you wanted to increase peak service you would need to also upgrade the terminals so I'm not sure it's a feasible solution.

There have been plans over the last few years (not sure how serious at this point) to upgrade the terminals. Upgrading the terminals and building a few extra ferries would probably be orders of magnitude less expensive than building a third harbour crossing.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Ferries are like bicycles. The people that use them love them, but they are slow, have limited capacity, and are not a solution to the transportation problems most people need to deal with.

Bicycles aren't slow in congested urban traffic. They're often the best (and fastest) way for an able-bodied person to manage short-haul trips around a compact urban area. Which is a transportation situation many of us deal with on a daily basis. Last night I took a bike from the Hydrostone to downtown to get a drink on Barrington with some friends. At the end of the night I cycled back home. No parking problem. No vehicle emissions. And it was almost as quick as driving. It was the best way for me to deal with that transportation "problem."

Likewise, taking a ferry straight into the business district is a much better option for many commuters than driving over a bridge and dealing with private vehicle issues.

[scryer]

Not sure how off topic I am keeping this... But how frequently do the ferries run?

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by scryer

Not sure how off topic I am keeping this... But how frequently do the ferries run?

http://www.halifax.ca/transit/Schedules/index.php

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Bicycles aren't slow in congested urban traffic. They're often the best (and fastest) way for an able-bodied person to manage short-haul trips around a compact urban area. Which is a transportation situation many of us deal with on a daily basis. Last night I took a bike from the Hydrostone to downtown to get a drink on Barrington with some friends. At the end of the night I cycled back home. No parking problem. No vehicle emissions. And it was almost as quick as driving. It was the best way for me to deal with that transportation "problem."

Likewise, taking a ferry straight into the business district is a much better option for many commuters than driving over a bridge and dealing with private vehicle issues.

First, you should not drink and drive whether you are driving a vehicle of pedaling a bicycle. Drunk/stoned biking is undoubtedly a contributor to some of the tragic cycling incidents we have seen. I know many cyclists feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them but I strongly disagree.

My issue with the ferries is that they are as @someone123 said in an earlier post, yet another piecemeal component of our transportation system. For a time I lived in Dartmouth and worked in DT Halifax. I thought the ferries would be an ideal way to get to and from work. Nothing could have been further from the truth. You could not get to the terminal in Dartmouth easily unless you drove and parked all day, which was almost as expensive as parking in downtown Halifax. If you had to go somewhere midday you were out of luck of course as your vehicle was on the other side of the harbour. If your job was not in a relatively small semicircle close the the Halifax terminal you were also out of luck as bus connections there were limited. The same held true if you attempted to bus instead of drive on the Dartmouth side, only even worse. On days where I did not drive to Alderney but instead attempted to use the ferry/bus combo it often took 90-120 minutes to get home, which is ridiculous. The ferries are not in any way integrated with the rest of transit except for the ability to use a transfer. Why this has never been addressed remains one of the great HRM mysteries. They may be great if you have someone to drop you off in the AM and pick you up in the PM but they are a rather poor option for most.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

First, you should not drink and drive whether you are driving a vehicle of pedaling a bicycle. Drunk/stoned biking is undoubtedly a contributor to some of the tragic cycling incidents we have seen. I know many cyclists feel that the rules of the road do not apply to them but I strongly disagree.

My issue with the ferries is that they are as @someone123 said in an earlier post, yet another piecemeal component of our transportation system. For a time I lived in Dartmouth and worked in DT Halifax. I thought the ferries would be an ideal way to get to and from work. Nothing could have been further from the truth. You could not get to the terminal in Dartmouth easily unless you drove and parked all day, which was almost as expensive as parking in downtown Halifax. If you had to go somewhere midday you were out of luck of course as your vehicle was on the other side of the harbour. If your job was not in a relatively small semicircle close the the Halifax terminal you were also out of luck as bus connections there were limited. The same held true if you attempted to bus instead of drive on the Dartmouth side, only even worse. On days where I did not drive to Alderney but instead attempted to use the ferry/bus combo it often took 90-120 minutes to get home, which is ridiculous. The ferries are not in any way integrated with the rest of transit except for the ability to use a transfer. Why this has never been addressed remains one of the great HRM mysteries. They may be great if you have someone to drop you off in the AM and pick you up in the PM but they are a rather poor option for most.

agreed. the bridge terminal should have been moved to alderny when they rebuilt it. the current setup is stupid.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Drunk/stoned biking is undoubtedly a contributor to some of the tragic cycling incidents we have seen.

"Undoubtably" insinuates that you have seen evidence supporting this statement. Otherwise it is simply your opinion, and stated as such, as it cannot be "undoubtable" without evidence. So... feel free to back that up with evidence, considering you just denigrated those who have been killed riding their bikes. I am sure that the family members of those people who have been killed would have something to say about your sweeping generalization.

[Hali87]

I think it goes without saying that the ferries and buses could/should be integrated a bit better.

My experiences with the ferries has been a bit different since I've been using them "against traffic" (Halifax to Alderney or Woodside in the AM, return to Halifax PM). The bus connections on the Halifax side work a lot better.