Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus (II) | U/C

[Burquitlaman]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Let's compare to the last update, which included a very reasonable six week delay from the previous.



Literally 2 years longer for all of the stations. We can build a skyscraper in this amount of time.

This update was about 16 months ago. They are going backwards!

But that's okay, because something something "this other country does it too".

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Thinking rail for the valley or the reuse of the Island line would be good investments suggests you are out of touch with economic reality. If there isn't sufficient money to extend to UBC yet, which should at least cover its operating costs, throwing money at projects that would need perpetual subsidy would be dumb.

BC Transit and TransLink have both needed hundreds of millions of dollars of extra funding just to maintain the existiong services. Covid blew both transit revenue and provincial finances almost out of the water. On much of the Translink system we're only just seeing ridership return to 2019 levels (except on ther Westcoast Express). The Arbutus section of SkyTrain is being built - with far fewer disruptions to Broadway than happened on Cambie and despite delays caused by a variety of reasons already iterated in this thread.

Under the 'BC Liberals' we had the 'vote against transit' which clearly identified where their priorities lay.

Nearly all rail lines require subsidy to service around the world (where I live in Japan the rail lines operate in permanent red, bit to close the lines would be economic suicide. That’s how rails works. Just like roads. They are not there to make profit directly, but to facilitate society and the economic system.

I agree, rail for the valley is a stupid idea because the rail they want to use meanders with an incredibly slow run time. But, a new rail line generally following the #1 south of the Fraser would work well (with some minor diversions to urban centres).

As for the island, I could not think of a better linear corridor for rail transit in BC. You got Victoria (400 000 and growing) Duncan (roughly servicing 50 000) Nanaimo (roughly servicing 120 000) Ladysmith, Courtney Comox and Campbell River (all in the 10 000 to 30 000 range for serviceable population) working a 250 corridor no more than 20 km wide at its widest. If you can’t make that corridor work with rail, then you aren’t really for rail to start with. Not to mention that that same corridor has a shit hodpodge “highway” between Nanaimo and Victoria that would make any developed nation cringe.

It always amazes me on this forum hearing the excuses why we can’t demand better in BC. Even with trains and transit! At this point I can’t dismiss the possibility that some on here are literal paid spinsters excusing the ruling parties inaction.

Thank God the Coquihalla, Okanagan Connector, West Coast Express and Expo Line were built in the 80s and 90s, because if they didn’t exist now I would hate to hear the attitudes towards doing so on this forum now.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Let's compare to the last update, which included a very reasonable six week delay from the previous.

Literally 2 years longer for all of the stations. We can build a skyscraper in this amount of time.

This update was about 16 months ago. They are going backwards!

They have been very clear that the project is significantly delayed and that an updated schedule would be announced once tunneling is complete.

By the schedules above it seems that tunneling was only slightly delayed and that the station construction is what has been the biggest impact. To me it looks like they they had anticipated being able to complete much more station construction while tunneling was underway.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Thank you. Some people are loathe to criticize their favorite projects.

Solutions not problems. Everyone complaining has plenty of the later and none of the former.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Nearly all rail lines require subsidy to service around the world (where I live in Japan the rail lines operate in permanent red, bit to close the lines would be economic suicide. That’s how rails works. Just like roads. They are not there to make profit directly, but to facilitate society and the economic system.

I agree, rail for the valley is a stupid idea because the rail they want to use meanders with an incredibly slow run time. But, a new rail line generally following the #1 south of the Fraser would work well (with some minor diversions to urban centres).

As for the island, I could not think of a better linear corridor for rail transit in BC. You got Victoria (400 000 and growing) Duncan (roughly servicing 50 000) Nanaimo (roughly servicing 120 000) Ladysmith, Courtney Comox and Campbell River (all in the 10 000 to 30 000 range for serviceable population) working a 250 corridor no more than 20 km wide at its widest. If you can’t make that corridor work with rail, then you aren’t really for rail to start with. Not to mention that that same corridor has a shit hodpodge “highway” between Nanaimo and Victoria that would make any developed nation cringe.

It always amazes me on this forum hearing the excuses why we can’t demand better in BC. Even with trains and transit! At this point I can’t dismiss the possibility that some on here are literal paid spinsters excusing the ruling parties inaction.

Thank God the Coquihalla, Okanagan Connector, West Coast Express and Expo Line were built in the 80s and 90s, because if they didn’t exist now I would hate to hear the attitudes towards doing so on this forum now.

There's a long discussion on the Heavy Rail thread about the Island Line. This is the wrong thread to debate it, or the other points you raise.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There's a long discussion on the Heavy Rail thread about the Island Line. This is the wrong thread to debate it, or the other points you raise.

Throwing in the towel I see. You led the debate here.

Original point still stands. With what was known regarding the project scope from the initiation (regarding the Broadway Street platforms) and the 5 week cement workers’ strike, a delay now of 2 years is inexcusable.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There's another thread for the Arbutus to UBC leg. There's no route approved yet, but it will bend north to get to Jericho, before heading to UBC. You can bet that cut and cover would be far more disruptive and involve much more land acquisition and demolition to dig a trench. In Vancouver, it'll be another bored tunnel.

Broadway turns into W 8th past Alma and curves towards the Jericho Lands. There would no need to bore, the street goes continuously there. No demolition needed.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Under the Libs we got the Canada Line, the Evergreen Line and the Highway 1 rapid bus. So far under the NDP we have gotten a 6km long extension that is now delayed by 2 years.

Oh, and we got a bridge and highway and rapid bus system cancelled with a weaker alternative that has yet to even go to tender (that will cost at least twice as much). Honestly, with inflation I’m scared to see what the new estimates for the new Massey Tunnel will be.

Under Gordon Campbell, we got 19.2 km of a rushed, watered-down P3 project that half the metro thinks will need a relief line soon.

Under Christy Clark, we got an 11-km spur line, a transit referendum followed by a proxy campaign about "wasteful spending" that killed the former, and six years of ignoring on transit until she walked it all back in a last-minute throne speech. SkyTrains and RapidBus to Ladner were never in the works, and the bridge was an empty campaign promise.*

Under Horgan and Eby, we've gotten the FVX you just mentioned, 21 km of proper SkyTrain under construction, 6 km more in planning and hundreds of km in RapidBuses and BRT. Actually living here in the last ten years instead of reading about it puts a lot of things into perspective.

*Don't get me started on the bridge to Gibsons.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

- snip -

Originally Posted by Metro-One

- snip -

For that, you'll have to elect Patrick Condon premier. Every time the province runs the numbers, they come to the same conclusion as everybody else: that passenger rail on the old interurban to Chilliwack or north of Langdale is a dumbassed idea.

---

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Original point still stands. With what was known regarding the project scope from the initiation (regarding the Broadway Street platforms) and the 5 week cement workers’ strike, a delay now of 2 years is inexcusable.

See madog's post:

Originally Posted by madog222

...By the schedules above it seems that tunneling was only slightly delayed and that the station construction is what has been the biggest impact. To me it looks they theyvahd (sic) anticipated being able to complete much more station construction while tunneling was underway.

There's also how constant reconfiguration of the road deck (used to keep traffic flowing) slowed construction. So I guess next time we should skip the deck and ask drivers to deal with it, but I'm guessing you wouldn't like that either.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Let's compare to the last update, which included a very reasonable six week delay from the previous.



Literally 2 years longer for all of the stations. We can build a skyscraper in this amount of time.

This update was about 16 months ago. They are going backwards!

So how realistic was it in the first place that the stations would be completed only months after the bored tunnel completion?
That's the period that has increased in the new chart.
When the TBM runs through a station box, it's nowhere near finished.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by officedweller

So how realistic was it in the first place that the stations would be completed only months after the bored tunnel completion?
That's the period that has increased in the new chart.
When the TBM runs through a station box, it's nowhere near finished.

Yeah it's pretty evident that the delays are from an overestimation of how much work could get done while the TBMs were active, and a corresponding underestimation of the complexity of deconstructing the roadway covers.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Under Christy Clark, we got an 11-km spur line...Under Horgan and Eby, we've gotten the FVX you just mentioned, 21 km of proper SkyTrain under construction

You're not making much of a case for why the Evergreen Line doesn't count. The Evergreen Line is as proper as it gets, and opens two cities to Skytrain.

Everything else I agree though.

[griswold]

This project has Acciona as one of the two contractors. They were also contractor for the North Shore water treatment boondoggle. Perhaps cities should stop hiring them.

[BaddieB]

Too bad they're on SLS. If they mess that up, three strikes.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by mcj

Yeah it's pretty evident that the delays are from an overestimation of how much work could get done while the TBMs were active, and a corresponding underestimation of the complexity of deconstructing the roadway covers.

I don't really see the road deck dismantling as a hinderance to opening.
I think it's how soon can the systems at track level in the station be completed so they can start testing and commissioning.
Road deck removal can occur while testing and commissioning are being carried out.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

You're not making much of a case for why the Evergreen Line doesn't count. The Evergreen Line is as proper as it gets, and opens two cities to Skytrain.

Everything else I agree though.

Evergreen was fine. The point is that both Gordon and Christy were in office for 5-6 years, same as the NDP... and yet during the latter's period, we've gotten as much rail (all fully-built, no less) and infinitely more express buses than both their predecessors put together, so IDK where the "Libs were better" crap comes from. I guess if you like the Golden Ears Bridge?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Under Gordon Campbell, we got 19.2 km of a rushed, watered-down P3 project that half the metro thinks will need a relief line soon.

Under Christy Clark, we got an 11-km spur line, a transit referendum followed by a proxy campaign about "wasteful spending" that killed the former, and six years of ignoring on transit until she walked it all back in a last-minute throne speech. SkyTrains and RapidBus to Ladner were never in the works, and the bridge was an empty campaign promise.*

Under Horgan and Eby, we've gotten the FVX you just mentioned, 21 km of proper SkyTrain under construction, 6 km more in planning and hundreds of km in RapidBuses and BRT. Actually living here in the last ten years instead of reading about it puts a lot of things into perspective.

*Don't get me started on the bridge to Gibsons.




For that, you'll have to elect Patrick Condon premier. Every time the province runs the numbers, they come to the same conclusion as everybody else: that passenger rail on the old interurban to Chilliwack or north of Langdale is a dumbassed idea.

---



See madog's post:



There's also how constant reconfiguration of the road deck (used to keep traffic flowing) slowed construction. So I guess next time we should skip the deck and ask drivers to deal with it, but I'm guessing you wouldn't like that either.

The fact that you discount even the Evergreen Line shows how far you are willing to manipulate the stats.

The Canada Line has been one of the largest transit project success stories in North America. Compare its ridership to countless other projects in North America with far higher price tags. For a grade separated automated system the bang for each buck spent on it has been tremendous. And no, the "relief" line talk is just jockeying largely seen only on this forum. The Canada Line can still more than double its ridership before such a project is needed to be discussed seriously.

Now, as for its shortcomings, many of those were not because of the ruling provincial party, but because of the local cities. Richmond originally demanded an at grade LRT along 3rd Street, so the compromise was the single tracked section. In the end compared to what Richmond wanted, we got a much better deal, but we still have them to thank for the single track. As for the stations only having single entrances, that was Translink's (and the city of Vancouver's) philosophy for reducing crime or some such nonsense, not the provincial government.

Now, for the Evergreen Line, that (by the wishes of Coquitlam) was originally going to be at grade LRT, but it was the Liberals that actually stopped that project and demanded that it be Skytrain.

So literally twice they prevented our rail system from becoming a watered down at grade LRT mess.

The 555 rapid bus on highway one is a true rapid bus system with dedicated built ramps and a proper centre lane operating space. Most of the current "rapid buses" being implemented are not much more than glorified B-Lines. (and the rapid bus proposed between the North Shore and Metrotown is a useless step / waste of money between building the purple line).

So, The Liberals built 30 KM of successful grade separated mass transit rail. Currently after 7 / 8 years of the NDP being in power we have 6KM under construction and 16KM (an extension no different than the Evergreen Line, which doesn't seem to count in your view, so I fail to see why this project would be any different for you ) yet to break ground. Now, these are good projects I'm happy to get, but the pace has been agonizingly slow.

Also under the Liberals we got:
The Highway 1 upgrades / new Port Mann
The Golden Ears Bridge and connector
The Sea to Sky highway upgrades
The SFPR (which has major faults, yes, but was still a major new corridor and useful project)
The new Pitt River Bridge (remember the old swing bridges!?)
The removal of the lights / interchange upgrades on the 91
The massive grade separation projects along the rail corridors in Delta, Surrey and Langley.
The twinning of highway 11 in Abbotsford.
The new Okanagan Bridge in Kelowna plus a couple interchanges.
The new 4 lane with 5th climbing lanes 97 corridor between Lake Country and Oyama and the 97 twinning outside of Summerland.
The initiation of the Kicking Horse canyon project and the highway 1 twinning program.
The Cariboo Connector twinning program.
The initiation of the Malahat twinning program.
Etc...

Now, they did drop the ball with the Pattullo Bridge. That should have been uploaded to the province by them (and built with the desired 6 lanes upon opening and proper interchange on the Surrey side that was originally planned and dropped by the NDP's configuration of the project). So both the Liberals and the NDP are to blame for that project's shortcomings.

Same for the Massey Bridge, the Liberals should have had all the contracts for the project signed before the election, so again I blame both parties for that mess.

In the Okanagan not a single interchange or twinning project or transit project has moved forward even an inch over the last 8 years (in fact the reverse happened, the Peachland twinning / bypass was cancelled, and no second crossing for Kelowna is on the radar anymore).

The superior period for transportation projects in the province is obvious, but spin away!

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Evergreen was fine. The point is that both Gordon and Christy were in office for 5-6 years, same as the NDP... and yet during the latter's period, we've gotten as much rail (all fully-built, no less) and infinitely more express buses than both their predecessors put together, so IDK where the "Libs were better" crap comes from. I guess if you like the Golden Ears Bridge?

Respectfully, as of today, July 10th, 2024, the BCNDP currently has zero "fully-built" rail under their name.

If you're comparing Campbell and Clark to Horgan and Eby, it's unfortunately 30km to 0km at the moment.

But also Gordon Campbell was premier for 10 years alone and the NDP has been in power for almost exactly 7 years, so I don't really know where your head is at the moment.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

- snip -

The Canada’s a success in the fact that it came in cheap and on-time, and surpassed its critics’ low expectations and survived their attempts to kill it. It’s a failure in that the P3 design cut corners, removed three stations, watered down the rest, and has 3/5ths the capacity of the rest of the network (and only if we rebuild the stations). For better or worse, the Broadway and Langley extensions follow the “do it once, do it right” model instead, and so delays can be forgiven.

Where and when did I say the Evergreen didn’t count, or that I wasn’t happy it got upgraded from a streetcar? I called it a spur line. That’s it.

But hey, if you want to play the game:

Libs (2001-2017) funded the:
- Canada Line, 19.2km
- Evergreen Line, 10.9km
- 97 B-Line, 12km
Total: 16 years, 31.1km of SkyTrain (1.94km/year), 12km of express buses.

Dippers (2017-2024) funded the:
- Broadway Line, 5.7km
- Langley Line, 16km
- R1-R6 RapidBuses, 88km
- 3 new BRTs: 66km
Total: 7 years, 21.7km of SkyTrain (3.1km/year), 154km of express buses.

Unless you can recall an additional 15+ km of SkyTrain and 140+ km of buses. I’m afraid the only one manipulating or spinning the stats is you and your nostalgia filter.

By all means, move the goalposts to include every road upgrade in the entire province. That was never my argument: I freely admit the Libs are usually better at highways, especially ones that serve their ridings in the outer burbs or outside the metro.

My argument is that they, especially under Christy, neglected transit, neglected Vancouver, and neglected transit in Vancouver, and the facts line up with that. Again, she opposed the Broadway Extension until the very last minute when she'd all but lost the 2017 election, so IDK WTF you’re on when you say she’d’ve done it better – she had a grudge against Vancouver for voting her out of her own riding, and she wouldn’t have done it at all.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

- snip -

I’m going by date of approval/funding; of course, halfway-completing or cancelling a funded line and losing the money would skew that, but Metro Vancouver doesn’t have any of those.
Were I to go by date of completion, then the Libs should also get the credit (or rather, the blame) for the original abysmal Millennium Line, but that wouldn’t be fair to Campbell when it was Harcourt or Glen Clark’s idea.

Yup, my bad, got the dates wrong... so that’s actually 16 years and 30km against Horgan/Eby’s 7 and 21, and now it jumps up to 1.5x more rail/year in favour of the NDP. Kinda proving my point here.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The Canada’s a success in the fact that it came in cheap and on-time, and surpassed its critics’ low expectations and survived their attempts to kill it. It’s a failure in that the P3 design cut corners, removed three stations, watered down the rest, and has 3/5ths the capacity of the rest of the network (and only if we rebuild the stations). For better or worse, the Broadway and Langley extensions follow the “do it once, do it right” model instead, and so delays can be forgiven.

Where and when did I say the Evergreen didn’t count, or that I wasn’t happy it got upgraded from a streetcar? I called it a spur line. That’s it.

But hey, if you want to play the game:



Unless you can recall an additional 15+ km of SkyTrain and 140+ km of buses. I’m afraid the only one manipulating or spinning the stats is you and your nostalgia filter.

By all means, move the goalposts to include every road upgrade in the entire province. That was never my argument: I freely admit the Libs are usually better at highways, especially ones that serve their ridings in the outer burbs or outside the metro.

My argument is that they, especially under Christy, neglected transit, neglected Vancouver, and neglected transit in Vancouver, and the facts line up with that. Again, she opposed the Broadway Extension until the very last minute when she'd all but lost the 2017 election, so IDK WTF you’re on when you say she’d’ve done it better – she had a grudge against Vancouver for voting her out of her own riding, and she wouldn’t have done it at all.

You opened that argument up when you included the Golden Ears Bridge in a passive aggressive quip.

Also you called it a spur in the obvious intention to downplay the scale of the project. So I fail to see how "a spur" is less major than an extension. In fact in that game the Canada Line has been our only entirely "new" line since the Millennium Line Phase 1.

And if you want to be fair, you are only counting the years of the NDP until now, and currently no rail has been completed, you will need to include the years between now and their opening dates for a fair comparison. So at the very least be 11 years for 21.7KM of rail.

We will have to wait and see for phase 2 of the Broadway subway, which I have a feeling massive increases in the estimated budget may throw a wrench into plans (unless they do a sensible approach and reduce the subway segments and increase the elevated segments. UBC doesn't need it to be underground unless they are willing to pay for the excess cost over elevated rail).