Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[le calmar]

Outside New York and Los Angeles, yes it a crazy concept. Toronto and Chicago are close to the size that would sustain two sports teams, hence the talk for a second NHL team in the GTA we hear every once in a while. (I know Chicago has two baseball teams already but that's pretty much an anomaly)

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by king10

Year Reg. Season
2007 20,134
2008 20,108
2009 20,344
2010 20,453
2011 20,267
2012 18,681
2013 18,131
2014 22,086
2015 23,451

Sorry. Because their attendance grew by 1500 the last 3 years they will need a 60,000 seat stadium in 15 years based on 1500 a year growth.

That makes zero sense.

If they hit 40k average in 15 years what do you suggest they do, move into a 50k sized stadium? Then knock that down for a 60k sized stadium 20 years after that? Jumping to a 60k format after they outgrow a 40k capacity stadium makes sense, that's what soccer teams do. For example, when Tottenham Hotspur outgrew their 43k capacity stadium they began building a 61k capacity stadium next door. Those numbers you displayed showed an average of 2,500 growth per year, my numbers were more conservative.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by esquire

At first glance the Lebreton rink looks spectacular, but these super-airy, translucent looking renderings have a way of being a disappointment in the end.

So this is strictly a private development, right? I take it the local government in Ottawa isn't ponying up to replace a 20 year old arena?

The mayor of Ottawa has made it very clear there's going to be no city funding.

Depending on how the ownership structure works it's possible the Sens will get the land for basically free from the federal government (a cheap long-term lease) in exchange for paying to decontaminate the site, which would be considerably cheaper than paying market value for all that land.

Originally Posted by esquire

I would fully expect the CTC to be demolished once the new venue is built; like Oilkountry said, not a chance that Ottawa can maintain three large arenas (not to mention the one in Gatineau).

The CTC and its giant parking areas will probably be torn down and converted into housing subdivisions. That area is very hot for new home construction right now, and the massive parking lots attached to the CTC mean the site would probably fetch a huge amount of money (in the hundreds of millions) if razed to the ground and then sold off to a housing developer.

This also provides a big source of capital to help fund the new arena.

[esquire]

^ The idea of tearing down a 20 year old rink (even if it's 25 by then) still seems goofy, but it sounds like Ottawa is taking a relatively responsible approach to it.

[drew]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

If they hit 40k average in 15 years what do you suggest they do, move into a 50k sized stadium? Then knock that down for a 60k sized stadium 20 years after that? Jumping to a 60k format after they outgrow a 40k capacity stadium makes sense, that's what soccer teams do. For example, when Tottenham Hotspur outgrew their 43k capacity stadium they began building a 61k capacity stadium next door. Those numbers you displayed showed an average of 2,500 growth per year, my numbers were more conservative.

Why not just start charging more for the tickets if demand exceeds availability? That way you may be able to consider paying off the older stadium, gathering some profit, as well as positioning yourself well when the undoubted ebbs and flows or spectator support occur.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Or how about they worry about filling the 30,000 seat stadium they already have before these pie-in-the-sky ideas of a 60,000 seat stadium

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

If they hit 40k average in 15 years what do you suggest they do, move into a 50k sized stadium?

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Jumping to a 60k format after they outgrow a 40k capacity stadium makes sense,

I find it ironic that you chose "Mr corporate" as a user name considering you clearly lack knowledge in simple economics and supply and demand. You're so backwards. If TFC ever had 40,000 patrons that want to go to a game doesn't mean MLSE should build a 40,000 seat stadium. Much better off to have a 32,000-35,000 seat building. If you have 80,000 people lined up at the gates every home game than Yes a 60,000 seat Stadium would make perfect sense for TFC. But to project that a team who's attendance has risen and fallen throughout the years will suddenly need a building twice the size of BMO in ANY time line at all is just naive. TFC only has 3 sell out years in it's entire existence. 1 of which was directly caused from MLSE's 100M investment in talent (defoe,bradley)

To add to this almost every sports franchise on earth has experienced ups and downs in attendance. Unless you're the green bay packers or maple leafs ect. (which tfc is not) you are not immune to your good years and bad years in attendance. Just ask the blue jays,black hawks any CFL team ect.

TFC averaged 23K in a 30K venue. To "project" anything for a team that has more non sell out years than sell out years at this point is just stupidity.

TFC attendance - BMO Capacity
2007 20,134 -20,000
2008 20,108 -20,000
2009 20,344 -20,000
2010 20,453 -21,859
2011 20,267 -21,859
2012 18,681 -21,859
2013 18,131 -21,859
2014 22,086 -22,591
2015 23,451 -30,991

[Riise]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Jumping to a 60k format after they outgrow a 40k capacity stadium makes sense, that's what soccer teams do. For example, when Tottenham Hotspur outgrew their 43k capacity stadium they began building a 61k capacity stadium next door.

Arsenal have already moved into a 60k seater stadium but you don't see us clamouring to move to a new 80k ground.

[mistercorporate]

[Deleted]

[FrankieFlowerpot]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

booooo

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

[Deleted]

So curious...

Makes perfect sense though, Anything you said most likely made you sound uneducated

Considering you have no argument vs supply and demand. You don't build a 60,000 seat building when you have 40,000 paying fans. You build a 40,000 seat building when you have 60,000 paying fans.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

So curious...

Makes sense though considering you can't argue supply and demand. You don't build a 60,000 seat building when you have 40,000 fans. You build a 40,000 seat building when you have 60,000 fans.

Thats highly debatable, but experience has taught me you can't debate with CFL fans, its beyond pointless. I'l continue to post on this thread but not interested in wasting my time debating with your type. And you're accusing me of being uneducated? You're totally looney...I have a masters and have lectured at a prestigious university, i'll leave it at that. Don't want to feed the trolls!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Another future scenario is the Toronto area actually supporting more than one football club. BMO expands to 40,000 and another club pops up. While this is a crazy concept for North American leagues, it is quite common in South American and European leagues.

I don't see why the future couldn't go that path instead.

Franchise-structure of North American sports leagues don't allow for this natural development, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

TFC averaged 23K in a 30K venue.

Five games total under 20K, three of them coming late in the season.

I love seeing TFC grow and i'm really glad that their stadium is actually beginning to look like a proper footy stadium.

Everyone needs to stop clamouring on someone who was trying to be optimistic and positive in this thread. A 60K stadium would actually be handy for national team events, outdoor concerts, and perhaps outdoor hockey games, as well as any future potential bids for world-class tournaments.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Franchise-structure of North American sports leagues don't allow for this natural development, unfortunately.


Five games total under 20K, three of them coming late in the season.

I love seeing TFC grow and i'm really glad that their stadium is actually beginning to look like a proper footy stadium.

Everyone needs to stop clamouring on someone who was trying to be optimistic and positive in this thread. A 60K stadium would actually be handy for national team events, outdoor concerts, and perhaps outdoor hockey games, as well as any future potential bids for world-class tournaments.

I'm not clamouring on him. Nor am I being a troll I'm simply providing facts to oppose his opinions. I will admit I am a bit abrasive when doing so, but I have a hard time listening to a TFC supporter prop up his teams growth as if it stands above the rest of the country when in fact it's not even worth mentioning. I give respect where it's due but until that time, I don't want to hear about how TFC's grand journey from 20 to 23K over the last decade is a clear look into the future and the impeding 60,000 seat capacity stadium mlse is going to have to build in the near future.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

to be fair - he didn't say impending

Once that capacity is reached (40k average attendance within 15 years is realistic) we may even see TFC moving into a bigger stadium (60k base, expandable to 80k) either at the same site or somewhere else like the Portlands.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Thats highly debatable,

Please provide me with any example of organization (especially in the world of sports) that intentionally models it's supply to outstrip demand It's more a death sentence than a luxury

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

to be fair - he didn't say impending

well I know that.. I was exaggerating (on a side note I know how to spell impending please don't be spell check guy lol)

[king10]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

If they hit 40k average in 15 years what do you suggest they do, move into a 50k sized stadium? Then knock that down for a 60k sized stadium 20 years after that? Jumping to a 60k format after they outgrow a 40k capacity stadium makes sense, that's what soccer teams do. For example, when Tottenham Hotspur outgrew their 43k capacity stadium they began building a 61k capacity stadium next door. Those numbers you displayed showed an average of 2,500 growth per year, my numbers were more conservative.

you're not getting it.

they aren't averaging 40K in 15 years "based on current projections"

lmao 2 years of 2,500 growth isn't a trend. other ppl were joking that based on your projections they'd need a 200,000 seat stadium in 50 years

awesome that you have a masters degree! so do I. how cool!! they're a dime a dozen these days. I hope you're not lecturing on supply and demand or business economics!

[logan5]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Thats highly debatable, but experience has taught me you can't debate with CFL fans, its beyond pointless. I'l continue to post on this thread but not interested in wasting my time debating with your type. And you're accusing me of being uneducated? You're totally looney...I have a masters and have lectured at a prestigious university, i'll leave it at that. Don't want to feed the trolls!

Really? What university? What was the topic of the lecture?

It's kind of pointless to puff your chest out anonymously.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by logan5

Really? What university? What was the topic of the lecture?

It's kind of pointless to puff your chest out anonymously.

I wasnt puffing out my chest man, someone point blank called me uneducated and i was responding to that. Ive already given out considerable personal details on this forum and would like to maintain some semblance of anonymity, not interested in getting into specifics but it was a management course, we'll leave it at that.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

I wasnt puffing out my chest man, someone point blank called me uneducated and i was responding to that.

I never point blank called you anything I said "you would most likely sound uneducated"