Third Harbour Crossing

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But anyway, the idea of urban cable cars has been around for awhile now. I remember some guy posted an article about it in the Toronto section of SSC over 5 years ago.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1034995

There's also one in Portland, OR (not necessarily a good example to follow), Burnaby is planning for one, and there are several other examples in other countries. I'm curious as to what people think the downsides would be here.

You can continue to be sarcastic if that's what gets you off but I'm actually hoping for (ideally constructive) criticism at this point.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Hali87

There's also one in Portland, OR (not necessarily a good example to follow), Burnaby is planning for one, and there are several other examples in other countries. I'm curious as to what people think the downsides would be here.

You can continue to be sarcastic if that's what gets you off but I'm actually hoping for (ideally constructive) criticism at this point.

Actually my biggest question when thinking about it would be potential safety/rescue issues should there be a failure of the system.

I've been on the Peak 2 Peak system in Whistler and I have to say it was quite an experience. I couldn't help but wonder how they would get everybody down if the system failed at such heights.

I won't list the safety features as it's easy to find on Google, but two of the main differences between spanning water in Halifax and spanning a valley in Whistler are the corrosive effects of a high-humidity salt water environment and our extreme weather events, such as hurricanes or ice/wet snow events driven by strong winds. I'm sure both could be dealt with through design and maintenance, although this would surely drive up the price.

As for rescue procedures, I am left feeling a little uneasy at the thought of being lowered down from a gondola on a rope sling, or whatever...

It would be an interesting commute, though.

Don't sweat the naysayers, as it appears that they tend to look at things with blinders on anyway.

I also heard that people can get cranky when they get old...

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hali87

There's also one in Portland, OR (not necessarily a good example to follow), Burnaby is planning for one, and there are several other examples in other countries. I'm curious as to what people think the downsides would be here.

You can continue to be sarcastic if that's what gets you off but I'm actually hoping for (ideally constructive) criticism at this point.

I would say downsides would be:

- While less costly than LRT, it would still cost millions of dollars. In this CBC article, it says "gondola cable can be built for $15 - $45 million U.S. per kilometre compared to $30 - $75 million U.S. per kilometre for light rail"

- More visible than LRT or BRT, because it would be far higher, and as a result may cause more complaints from those concerned about the visual impact.

- It's not practical to have a large number of stops. They tend to either have a single stop at either end, or one or two intermediate stops.

- Slower speeds than those (potentially but not necessarily) available for road or rail service

- Harder to tailor to demand, because the whole system is either running or it isn't, which is different than altering the number of buses or LRT vehicles in service. However, it wouldn't require drivers for each unit either, making this only semi-relevant

While the benefits would be:

- It would be far easier to find a right-of-way. We wouldn't need to worry about widening a street, cutting down a lot of trees, disrupting traffic during construction, and having people complain about the ROW taking away road space.

- Much more frequent service with a gondola leaving multiple times per minute, offsetting the slower trip speed

- Millions less costly than LRT, despite potentially having nearly as high capacity.

- Wouldn't require expensive bridges or tunnels as it can traverse any type of terrain

- Totally independent of road traffic avoiding slowdowns from accidents or congestion providing greater reliability

- Scenic views enhance the experience for passengers and create a novelty/attraction for visitors

[Hali87]

I agree with basically everything you just said there, and if it were ever hypothetically used for transit here, I could only see it as being useful for crossing water (such as the Arm) or climbing very steep hills or crossing ravines. I don't think it would be very useful as a replacement for other forms of transit. If anything, it would be more like the ferries than the buses.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

LOL. But keep in mind, in Halifax there would be issues: Some would complain the gondola towers are TOO TALL! Others would not want unsightly gondolas blocking the view down the Arm from Joe Howe Drive. Wildlife activists would complain gondolas would be hazardous to the bird population. The EAC would want the gondolas powered only by SUSTAINABLE sources of energy, perhaps the tides. Cyclists would demand special bike gondolas just for them. The Fire Department would need millions of dollars to design and build gondola rescue apparatus. Passengers would complain that Transit somehow made no gondolas arrive for 40 minutes when suddenly 3 arrive simultaneously. All gondolas would be routed to travel above Barrington St regardless of destination. Gondola operators would demand "Sky Rooms" where they could go to smoke and use the bathroom. And of course, the NIMBY brigade would rise up and decry the presence of gondolas over the South End, complaining that we have built a "gondola culture" in Halifax that needs to be quashed. Meanwhile, suburbanites would demand bigger and faster gondolas to take them to the malls and shorten their commute time to downtown. I'm afraid gondolas would soon just become a car without wheels.

Gondolas are pretty sustainable. The towers are fairly slender, not hugely noticeable and given the size of the system don't draw that much power. Evac equipment is also realitivly cheap - it's little more then climbing gear (I can describe the process of your interested, I've been trained in it).

The big problems we'll have with a gondola are the young folk trying to have sex in them, which becomes more fun if there is a mid station. And base jumpers.

Poma and doppelmeyer also make material hauling systems that run for 30-40kms.

[Waye Mason]

Eventually we may need a new bridge, I think 15-20 years out. Currently it seems the self driving car may free up enough space on the road network in 15-20 years that hey, maybe we don't.

The thing of the Mackay is there is some concern that it couldn't be cost effectively redecked. It may prove cheaper to replace it. At that time making it 6-8 lanes becomes a far less expensive option then effectively building 2 bridges.

For the record, none of this analysis is my idea. Its all stuff floating around HRM staff, HHB, and the province.

But if you want me to not share what I hear from people who have the data and know what they are talking about because evidence and data offends belief, then let me know.

EDIT - love me a gondola.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Eventually we may need a new bridge, I think 15-20 years out. Currently it seems the self driving car may free up enough space on the road network in 15-20 years that hey, maybe we don't.

The thing of the Mackay is there is some concern that it couldn't be cost effectively redecked. It may prove cheaper to replace it. At that time making it 6-8 lanes becomes a far less expensive option then effectively building 2 bridges.

For the record, none of this analysis is my idea. Its all stuff floating around HRM staff, HHB, and the province.

But if you want me to not share what I hear from people who have the data and know what they are talking about because evidence and data offends belief, then let me know.

EDIT - love me a gondola.

What is the reason it can't be redecked cost effectively?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I agree with basically everything you just said there, and if it were ever hypothetically used for transit here, I could only see it as being useful for crossing water (such as the Arm) or climbing very steep hills or crossing ravines. I don't think it would be very useful as a replacement for other forms of transit. If anything, it would be more like the ferries than the buses.

The arm would be good in one sense, but I have to wonder about the details. Like where would the station on the peninsula be? If it wasn't downtown, there would need to be good transit connections and it would be a nuisance that it would require another transfer. If you took the #20 to the cable car station on HCR, then got on the gondola, then you'd have to get on either the #41, #9, or #1 depending on where the station was. But if it was downtown, I'm not sure where it would go.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The arm would be good in one sense, but I have to wonder about the details. Like where would the station on the peninsula be? If it wasn't downtown, there would need to be good transit connections and it would be a nuisance that it would require another transfer. If you took the #20 to the cable car station on HCR, then got on the gondola, then you'd have to get on either the #41, #9, or #1 depending on where the station was. But if it was downtown, I'm not sure where it would go.

I was picturing something quite a bit smaller, basically just going from Fleming Park to maybe South or Coburg at Oxford. The goal wouldn't be to bring commuters as close as possible to downtown, it would be to provide a connection across the Arm for pedestrians/transit users.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The arm would be good in one sense, but I have to wonder about the details. Like where would the station on the peninsula be? If it wasn't downtown, there would need to be good transit connections and it would be a nuisance that it would require another transfer. If you took the #20 to the cable car station on HCR, then got on the gondola, then you'd have to get on either the #41, #9, or #1 depending on where the station was. But if it was downtown, I'm not sure where it would go.

I think the best place for the North West Arm bridge would have been the route shown when the Harbour Drive was proposed (without the harbour bridge and highway through the downtown) - http://halifax.ca/archives/documents/SS-10-15719ProposedHarbourDrive.pdf. One major benefit of this North West Arm bridge route would be getting container traffic off downtown streets.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I was picturing something quite a bit smaller, basically just going from Fleming Park to maybe South or Coburg at Oxford. The goal wouldn't be to bring commuters as close as possible to downtown, it would be to provide a connection across the Arm for pedestrians/transit users.

Pedestrian route? How many people would actually use that?

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Pedestrian route? How many people would actually use that?

Depends if you mean status quo or after people have had a while to adjust. People could easily take buses to the gondola (though depending how busy it is they might have to wait in line for a few minutes) and then walk to the universities and hospitals. This would be a lot faster than taking buses through the Rotary to the same destinations, and would also bring people closer to downtown much more quickly and without adding to traffic. In theory a park and ride could also be located somewhere nearby on the south side. It would also be an interesting attraction during off-peak hours, similar to the ferry.

What I mean by adjusting is that it would make that part of the city much "closer" to the universities and hospitals, so it becomes a much more practical place to live (even without a car) for people who work/study in the South End and over time the area's demographics and commuting patterns (and new developments) would likely shift to reflect that.

It's also the kind of thing that the city/locals would probably take pride in and that people from other places might notice. It's something that might actually work very well here, that isn't really common elsewhere in NA, and gives the city character without being cliché or stuck in the past. And it would also be a genuinely enjoyable way to commute, for many.

[Nouvellecosse]

How many passengers would your proposal actually serve per weekday and per year? And what would its setup, operating costs, and farebox recovery ratio be?

[curnhalio]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Depends if you mean status quo or after people have had a while to adjust. People could easily take buses to the gondola (though depending how busy it is they might have to wait in line for a few minutes) and then walk to the universities and hospitals. This would be a lot faster than taking buses through the Rotary to the same destinations, and would also bring people closer to downtown much more quickly and without adding to traffic. In theory a park and ride could also be located somewhere nearby on the south side. It would also be an interesting attraction during off-peak hours, similar to the ferry.

What I mean by adjusting is that it would make that part of the city much "closer" to the universities and hospitals, so it becomes a much more practical place to live (even without a car) for people who work/study in the South End and over time the area's demographics and commuting patterns (and new developments) would likely shift to reflect that.

It's also the kind of thing that the city/locals would probably take pride in and that people from other places might notice. It's something that might actually work very well here, that isn't really common elsewhere in NA, and gives the city character without being cliché or stuck in the past. And it would also be a genuinely enjoyable way to commute, for many.

The "as the crow flies" distance between Dalhousie and the Dingle can't be more than a few hundred metres. A system like this wouldn't even need to travel that far, theoretically. It doesn't need to be a be-all end-all to transit across the arm. I don't think there are a lot of logical start points from the mainland, being a fixed low-density area. If I worked at Dalhousie and lived in Spryfield or somewhere over there, I would likely drive (or bus, if an option was created) to the gondola, ride over and walk to Dal from there.

There certainly can be a benefit from a system like this. If even 500 people decided to use it, the drive down Herring Cove Rd to the rotary would become easier and ostensibly the drive down Quinpool and/or Oxford would become easier as well.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by curnhalio

The "as the crow flies" distance between Dalhousie and the Dingle can't be more than a few hundred metres. A system like this wouldn't even need to travel that far, theoretically. It doesn't need to be a be-all end-all to transit across the arm. I don't think there are a lot of logical start points from the mainland, being a fixed low-density area. If I worked at Dalhousie and lived in Spryfield or somewhere over there, I would likely drive (or bus, if an option was created) to the gondola, ride over and walk to Dal from there.

There certainly can be a benefit from a system like this. If even 500 people decided to use it, the drive down Herring Cove Rd to the rotary would become easier and ostensibly the drive down Quinpool and/or Oxford would become easier as well.

Trebuchets would probably be cheaper, though the insurance might be a bit more expensive.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Trebuchets would probably be cheaper, though the insurance might be a bit more expensive.

Sounds like fun. Have you tried this method yet?

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Trebuchets would probably be cheaper, though the insurance might be a bit more expensive.

I can just see it now...

Hali87: "Now this is your last chance! I've been more than reasonable...."
KeithP: "Fetchez la vache!"

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I can just see it now...

Hali87: "Now this is your last chance! I've been more than reasonable...."
KeithP: "Fetchez la vache!"

LOL... "Just aim at one of those heritage buildings in case this doesn't work out as planned."

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I can just see it now...

Hali87: "Now this is your last chance! I've been more than reasonable...."
KeithP: "Fetchez la vache!"

Once you start tossing cows with that trebuchet, that's when the residents of the deep south end will really start getting up in arms!!

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

How many passengers would your proposal actually serve per weekday and per year? And what would its setup, operating costs, and farebox recovery ratio be?

I don't know. This wasn't a class project or anything, it's not a real proposal and I haven't really thought about the details much. It was literally just "an idea i had", not a "plan".

Although I guess it would be kind of interesting to look into that kind of thing. But since I don't really have any connection to City Hall or Metro Transit, what would be the point? (coming up with hypothetical plans that will never be implemented, while a cool thought experiment, isn't really something I do in my free time. The rail transit study and proposal i did a few years ago was my honours thesis. Most of the concrete, realtively detailed things I've done like that were for school/work, not for leisure)