Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Daveography

^ We've all tried to explain this to esquire many times; he's either not listening or prefers his internal narrative about it over that of the people who live here and watched both the deal unfold and are watching the positive results unfold as we speak.

I like to think my judgment isn't clouded by close proximity to the razzle dazzle of a glamorous project.

Edmonton's downtown was resurgent long before the Ice District plan was hatched. I just don't buy the idea that it would have somehow fizzled without a 9-figure gift to a very profitable enterprise.

There is something about pro sports that makes people unwilling or unable to see that they're getting their pockets picked.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I live in Alberta have been here 90% of my life. And this is a Canada stadium/arena thread so if you're offended by non Calgarians discussing your cities sports facilities you might wanna unsubscribe. I guess that's why we are all on this thread aren't we?

I never said I was offended, was just curious. Of course I respect all opinions, that's what I like about this forum. Sorry, I also thought you were in Winnipeg since you post a lot about that city. Moving on....

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

-Mcmahon is old and outdated and could an update or replacement but the stamps are making money in it and so far the CFL has not financially out grown it

I wonder if the Stamps actually made money last year. I know they did the last year they hosted the GC. Speaking of which, I'd be very surprised if they hosted another one. Those end zone seats they put up were ridiculous. Had friends who sat in them and they said they could barely see anything. It's def not good for any big events and their hasn't been an outdoor concert their since 1977.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

I wonder if the Stamps actually made money last year. I know they did the last year they hosted the GC. Speaking of which, I'd be very surprised if they hosted another one. Those end zone seats they put up were ridiculous. Had friends who sat in them and they said they could barely see anything. It's def not good for any big events and their hasn't been an outdoor concert their since 1977.

Ozzie in 2008 or Lilith Fair in 2010 don't count?

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by speedog

Ozzie in 2008 or Lilith Fair in 2010 don't count?

Oh crap I missed those! Well you gotta admit, they don't happen very often!

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by esquire

I like to think my judgment isn't clouded by close proximity to the razzle dazzle of a glamorous project.

Edmonton's downtown was resurgent long before the Ice District plan was hatched. I just don't buy the idea that it would have somehow fizzled without a 9-figure gift to a very profitable enterprise.

There is something about pro sports that makes people unwilling or unable to see that they're getting their pockets picked.

Certainly there is some razzle dazzle factor here and yes, Downtown Edmonton was very much on the road to revitalization, but this arena has accelerated growth considerably. I'd guess about a decade to fifteen years. Interest, investment and recognition of the Downtown is way way up.

The stadium will bring ~2-3 million people a year downtown, many of which would not have otherwise gone there or spent much money within its boundaries.

Was the deal perfect, no, was it a reasonable deal with both parties coming away pleased, absolutely.

The reality is that we would not have seen this 25 acre $2.5 billion worth of projects so quickly, so intensely with a new Western Canadian tallest WITHOUT the arena.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by esquire

I like to think my judgment isn't clouded by close proximity to the razzle dazzle of a glamorous project.

Your implication here is insulting.

Originally Posted by esquire

Edmonton's downtown was resurgent long before the Ice District plan was hatched. I just don't buy the idea that it would have somehow fizzled without a 9-figure gift to a very profitable enterprise.

Yes, downtown was already in a resurgence. Would it have fizzled? Probably not. Was it accelerated by it? Absolutely it was. That's not a gift, that's an investment, and it is already seeing returns.

Originally Posted by esquire

There is something about pro sports that makes people unwilling or unable to see that they're getting their pockets picked.

For the record, and for what it's worth, I'm actually not into pro sports.

In fact, I was originally against the deal. I didn't think it would see such returns so quickly. I was wrong, and I'm very, very happy to admit that.

[ciudad_del_norte]

Originally Posted by Daveography

Your implication here is insulting.



Yes, downtown was already in a resurgence. Would it have fizzled? Probably not. Was it accelerated by it? Absolutely it was. That's not a gift, that's an investment, and it is already seeing returns.



For the record, and for what it's worth, I'm actually not into pro sports.

In fact, I was originally against the deal. I didn't think it would see such returns so quickly. I was wrong, and I'm very, very happy to admit that.

I think that is exactly it. The implication that Edmonton was generally completely happy with the Arena and that deal and negotiations also ignores the years of fury, public frustration, and political mess that led up this deal.

Could council have done better in the negotiations? Yes absoutely. There are many aspects of the deal that many people aren't thrilled with, despite the blinding shiny new project. But, I think many can agree that it does actually seem to be doing a lot of the adjacent things that many were skeptical of, and has, without a doubt sped up investment in downtown substantially.

Did Dt Edmonton need the Arena project to survive? Nope.
Did the Oilers need the Arena project to survive? Nope.

Those arguments, although they were fielded during the negotiations were generally not well recieved and that approach led to Katz taking out a full page apology in the Edmonton Journal. Yeah, these things definitely still influenced the discourse and played off a historic lack of confidence Edmontonians had in their City. But it also met fierce opposition from the growing confidence that has been growing for 10-ish years.

Are the actual impacts of the project sustantial enough for people to consider a substantial public investment wortwhile? That's a fair question. But to truly discuss it we'd have to have a grown up discussion about CRL funding instead of drawing to the extremes which are both innacurrate. There is a substantial public investment in this project. There will be private profit, or the private entities wouldn't be involved. Determining what it actually will really cost the City is much more difficult to determine. No, CRL doesn't necesarily just relocate tax revenue that would have been generated elsewhere, but its not necesarily revenue neutral as some like to argue.

Some can accept that where that actual cost falls, the benefits of the project are still probably worth it. Some may not.

One may not agree with the funding scheme. I don't really, to be honest. But I also understand that it was a lot more nuanced and complicated than hockey leagues and strong-arming.

[esquire]

^ That's a fairly even handed assessment.

I will concede that the project has led to more spinoff development than I expected... frankly, I expected a much more one-sided deal but it is obviously more complicated than that with the immense amount of development that is happening concurrently with (note that I don't say as a result of) the arena project.

Finally, I apologize to Daveography for implying that he was hoodwinked by all of this. My reference was to cities generally and how in my view they tend to get a bit distracted by the glitz of pro sports and downplay the costs as a result, but I didn't mean to make it personal. Mea culpa.

[Daveography]

^ NP, and thanks.

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

I think that is exactly it. The implication that Edmonton was generally completely happy with the Arena and that deal and negotiations also ignores the years of fury, public frustration, and political mess that led up this deal.

Could council have done better in the negotiations? Yes absoutely. There are many aspects of the deal that many people aren't thrilled with, despite the blinding shiny new project. But, I think many can agree that it does actually seem to be doing a lot of the adjacent things that many were skeptical of, and has, without a doubt sped up investment in downtown substantially.

Did Dt Edmonton need the Arena project to survive? Nope.
Did the Oilers need the Arena project to survive? Nope.

Those arguments, although they were fielded during the negotiations were generally not well recieved and that approach led to Katz taking out a full page apology in the Edmonton Journal. Yeah, these things definitely still influenced the discourse and played off a historic lack of confidence Edmontonians had in their City. But it also met fierce opposition from the growing confidence that has been growing for 10-ish years.

Are the actual impacts of the project sustantial enough for people to consider a substantial public investment wortwhile? That's a fair question. But to truly discuss it we'd have to have a grown up discussion about CRL funding instead of drawing to the extremes which are both innacurrate. There is a substantial public investment in this project. There will be private profit, or the private entities wouldn't be involved. Determining what it actually will really cost the City is much more difficult to determine. No, CRL doesn't necesarily just relocate tax revenue that would have been generated elsewhere, but its not necesarily revenue neutral as some like to argue.

Some can accept that where that actual cost falls, the benefits of the project are still probably worth it. Some may not.

One may not agree with the funding scheme. I don't really, to be honest. But I also understand that it was a lot more nuanced and complicated than hockey leagues and strong-arming.

Another element to this deal, which will look even more important in retrospect as this year continues, is the fact that it is keeps a few thousand Albertans employed. It's going to be a rough year in the energy industry and this will help soften the blow. The timing of this project couldn't be better.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

I wonder if the Stamps actually made money last year. I know they did the last year they hosted the GC. Speaking of which, I'd be very surprised if they hosted another one. Those end zone seats they put up were ridiculous. Had friends who sat in them and they said they could barely see anything. It's def not good for any big events and their hasn't been an outdoor concert their since 1977.

I can attest to the horrible endzone seats as I was in them. But in the end it probably wont matter. Calgary won't see a grey cup for a loooong time at least 6-7 years Toronto,Ottawa,Toronto,Hamilton,Regina,Montreal (Not necessarily in that order) and then it's a toss up after that. Edmonton will be due, Halifax may join by then. Who knows!! I would also be surprised if McMahon in it's current form will ever see another grey cup and rightfully so.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I can attest to the horrible endzone seats as I was in them. But in the end it probably wont matter. Calgary won't see a grey cup for a loooong time at least 6-7 years Toronto,Ottawa,Toronto,Hamilton,Regina,Montreal (Not necessarily in that order) and then it's a toss up after that. Edmonton will be due, Halifax may join by then. Who knows!! I would also be surprised if McMahon in it's current form will ever see another grey cup and rightfully so.

Given that in the quickest scenario McMahon is at least 5 years away from being replaced, I think it's a pretty safe bet that it will host at least one more Grey Cup. Especially if the economy improves and there are corporate buyers willing to shell out generously for the best seats.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I can attest to the horrible endzone seats as I was in them. But in the end it probably wont matter. Calgary won't see a grey cup for a loooong time at least 6-7 years Toronto,Ottawa,Toronto,Hamilton,Regina,Montreal (Not necessarily in that order) and then it's a toss up after that. Edmonton will be due, Halifax may join by then. Who knows!! I would also be surprised if McMahon in it's current form will ever see another grey cup and rightfully so.

Agree 100%. Calgary won't get one nor should they. They should have some standards for seating IMO, that temp seating was embarrassing. I wonder what will come first: a new stadium in Calgary or one in Halifax. Talk about a snail race....

[The_Architect]

I respect Nenshi even more. Don't give public money to private arenas/stadiums.

[Coldrsx]

'Give' being the operative word here... what about a partnership, JV or investment?

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Black Star

Cost of the arena is $480 million, $130 million paid by the Katz Group, $125 million paid for by a ticket tax on all tickets sold at the venue and $200 million from the City and $25 million from other levels of government for the second ice surface/community rink to be used for the public and nearby university.

Did the $200M from the CRL go toward the construction of the arena, local infrastructure improvements or a combination of both?

[GernB]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

I can attest to the horrible endzone seats as I was in them. But in the end it probably wont matter. Calgary won't see a grey cup for a loooong time at least 6-7 years Toronto,Ottawa,Toronto,Hamilton,Regina,Montreal (Not necessarily in that order) and then it's a toss up after that. Edmonton will be due, Halifax may join by then. Who knows!! I would also be surprised if McMahon in it's current form will ever see another grey cup and rightfully so.

IIRC the CFL has stated that Calgary will not receive a GC game until a new stadium is built...although a massive reno would probably change that situation. But neither seems likely in the foreseeable future. Hope I'm wrong.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Riise

Did the $200M from the CRL go toward the construction of the arena, local infrastructure improvements or a combination of both?

The CRL will be funding the arena portion as well as new parks, trees, drainage etc.

http://www.edmonton.ca/go_downtown/downtown-projects.aspx

[Oilkountry]

I also have to offer an apology to Tomthumb. I can't imagine how frustrating it is to look east or west (North) and see new Arenas and stadiums going up in every major city in canada and be stuck with the Dome and McMahon. 5-6 years ago this was a different situation. McMahon was a state of the art CFL venue. And The Dome didn't seem all that bad at the time. But with Videotron and Rogers Place going up and BellCentre/MTS/ACC and RogersArena seeing significant investments and almost every CFL market in a New/Reno'd Stadium. Calgary is looking pretty silly, I can completely see why you would be frustrated looking through your eyes, as apposed to a Jets fan (who lives in Edmonton) looking from the outside in.