Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[esquire]

^ There's a difference between "being very negative about anything being built" and knowing a con when they see one.

Judging by the news reports, Nenshi and most Calgarians appear to be capable of the latter.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ There's a difference between "being very negative about anything being built" and knowing a con when they see one.

Judging by the news reports, Nenshi and most Calgarians appear to be capable of the latter.

Whether you think it's a con or not, it's not going to get resolved for a LONG time. That's the frustrating part.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Whether you think it's a con or not, it's not going to get resolved for a LONG time. That's the frustrating part.

What's frustrating? The Flames have an arena that works just fine, and team is presumably profitable given that they are well supported by corporations and individuals who fill the seats every night. What's missing from this picture?

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by esquire

What's missing from this picture?

Irate taxpayers?

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

What's frustrating? The Flames have an arena that works just fine, and team is presumably profitable given that they are well supported by corporations and individuals who fill the seats every night. What's missing from this picture?

The arena is not fine. The concourses are crap, there aren't enough washrooms and the stupid roof is caved in. Don't even get me started on the giant turd that is McMahon.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

The arena is not fine. The concourses are crap, there aren't enough washrooms and the stupid roof is caved in. Don't even get me started on the giant turd that is McMahon.

If it was that bad, people would stop going.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

If it was that bad, people would stop going.

Not necessarily. Rexall in Edmonton sells out every game, people still go to McMahon and its a dump and Rider fans fill Mosaic and its an absolute hole.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Not necessarily. Rexall in Edmonton sells out every game, people still go to McMahon and its a dump and Rider fans fill Mosaic and its an absolute hole.

Well, if the fans are willing to go to the venue and the team only wants a new one in order to increase revenue through more boxes, restaurants, club seats, etc., then why should taxpayers get stuck with the bill?

At least with ancient dumps like old Mosaic there were building code issues and legitimate problems. I'm not aware that there were any significant deficiencies with the Saddledome... it just doesn't have enough places for the expense account crowd to spend money.

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by esquire

Well, if the fans are willing to go to the venue and the team only wants a new one in order to increase revenue through more boxes, restaurants, club seats, etc., then why should taxpayers get stuck with the bill?

At least with ancient dumps like old Mosaic there were building code issues and legitimate problems. I'm not aware that there were any significant deficiencies with the Saddledome... it just doesn't have enough places for the expense account crowd to spend money.

When did I say taxpayers should be stuck with the bill? I'm just saying I think we need new facilities. My frustration is with the shitty proposal and the grandstanding politicians.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

The arena is not fine. The concourses are crap, there aren't enough washrooms and the stupid roof is caved in. Don't even get me started on the giant turd that is McMahon.

okay okay slow down big guy

Ive been to the dome, it's not that bad at all actually. Its better than rexall and in my opinion Edmonton wasn't in dire need of a new arena either. In fact ive been to a ton of arenas all over north america and not one has had enough bathrooms (something about 19,000 people having to go to the bathroom at the same time might be the culprit) If You think the domes concourses are cramped go to a canucks game in Vancouver or a Jet's game in Winnipeg. Actually go to just about any arena in north america and you will find the same problem. And the roof being caved in...believe it or not, Was part of the original design All joking aside, how or why does the roof design affect you in anyway? McMahon needs a substantial reno or replacement I'll be the first to admit it. But please Calgary, don't act like the saddledome is crumbling beneath your feet. The push to replace it starts and ends with envy on both a business and fan level. The flames Don't NEED a new building. They want a fancy new building with windows and better luxury suites. But if I was a tax payer in Calgary I would be furious with the current deal. "saddle" up Calgary you're in for a long ride. Might as well reno the dome so you can make the best of it for the next 15-20 years.I mean It's hardly into it's 3rd decade. Be creative,lose some seats, Cramb a few more boxes in and enjoy it.

The only reason this is even an issue for Calgary all the sudden, is because bettman rolled into town. Same crap happened in Edmonton at this point of the discussions. He was a little more aggressive last time though.

The commissioner of the National Hockey League is warning that time is running out to guarantee the Edmonton Oilers have a future in Alberta.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

The only reason this is even an issue for Calgary all the sudden, is because bettman rolled into town. Same crap happened in Edmonton at this point of the discussions. He was a little more aggressive last time though.

The Bettman bad cop schtick worked to perfection in Edmonton, I guess he was hoping Calgary would take the bait too.

[Coldrsx]

^yup, we got suckered.

FIVE ICE DISTRICT ADDITIONS:

Legends Private Residences – The 264 condominium units will occupy the 23rd through 54th floors above the JW Marriott hotel. Residents will have access to several special amenity spaces, refined à la carte hotel services, direct access to Rogers Place and Oilers games, and VIP access to concerts.

Oliver & Bonacini Restaurants (O&B) – In October 2015, the Katz Group announced a new partnership with Toronto-based fine dining, events, and catering group, Oliver & Bonacini Restaurants (O&B), which will oversee all food and beverage operations of the area as the hospitality consultant for the Ice District.

Grand Villa Casino -- Gateway Casinos and Entertainment will build its $32-million, 125,000 square foot Grand Villa Edmonton Casino located adjacent to Rogers Place on the northwest corner of 104 Avenue and 102 Street.

Edmonton Tower -- The City of Edmonton will be the tower’s anchor tenant, amalgamating nine different downtown office buildings to occupy 60 per cent of the new tower, located at the corner of 101 Street and 104 Avenue. In May 2015, RBC Dominion Securities was named as another major tenant of the 27-storey building.

Stantec Tower -- One of Edmonton’s largest design and consulting firms, Stantec is designing and engineering the roughly 224 (250.8m fact check)- metre tall building at 101 Avenue and 112 Street It will be the largest tower in Edmonton, with 450,000-square-feet of office space in the tower’s first 28 floors and the top 30 storeys dedicated to residential space.

www.edmontonsun.com

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

okay okay slow down big guy

Ive been to the dome, it's not that bad at all actually. Its better than rexall and in my opinion Edmonton wasn't in dire need of a new arena either. In fact ive been to a ton of arenas all over north america and not one has had enough bathrooms (something about 19,000 people having to go to the bathroom at the same time might be the culprit) If You think the domes concourses are cramped go to a canucks game in Vancouver or a Jet's game in Winnipeg. Actually go to just about any arena in north america and you will find the same problem. And the roof being caved in...believe it or not, Was part of the original design All joking aside, how or why does the roof design affect you in anyway? McMahon needs a substantial reno or replacement I'll be the first to admit it. But please Calgary, don't act like the saddledome is crumbling beneath your feet. The push to replace it starts and ends with envy on both a business and fan level. The flames Don't NEED a new building. They want a fancy new building with windows and better luxury suites. But if I was a tax payer in Calgary I would be furious with the current deal. "saddle" up Calgary you're in for a long ride. Might as well reno the dome so you can make the best of it for the next 15-20 years.I mean It's hardly into it's 3rd decade. Be creative,lose some seats, Cramb a few more boxes in and enjoy it.

The only reason this is even an issue for Calgary all the sudden, is because bettman rolled into town. Same crap happened in Edmonton at this point of the discussions. He was a little more aggressive last time though.

Well I guess I'm not going to convince you we need new sports facilities and you're not going to convince me we don't. But I am curious to know why you guys from Winnipeg feel so strongly about it. Why would you guys care what's built in Calgary? I find that intriguing.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Well I guess I'm not going to convince you we need new sports facilities and you're not going to convince me we don't. But I am curious to know why you guys from Winnipeg feel so strongly about it. Why would you guys care what's built in Calgary? I find that intriguing.

I live in Alberta have been here 90% of my life. And this is a Canada stadium/arena thread so if you're offended by non Calgarians discussing your cities sports facilities you might wanna unsubscribe. I guess that's why we are all on this thread aren't we?

Need (wiki) -A need is something that is necessary for an organism to live a healthy life

Want (wiki) -a want is something that is desired. It is said that every person has unlimited wants, but limited resources

-Mcmahon is old and outdated and could an update or replacement but the stamps are making money in it and so far the CFL has not financially out grown it

-The saddledome though outdated,cramped and arguably poorly designed even for the 80's is structurally sound, sold out nightly and generates enough revenue to put the flames in the top half of the NHL.

[Black Star]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Bettman bad cop schtick worked to perfection in Edmonton, I guess he was hoping Calgary would take the bait too.

Cost of the arena is $480 million, $130 million paid by the Katz Group, $125 million paid for by a ticket tax on all tickets sold at the venue and $200 million from the City and $25 million from other levels of government for the second ice surface/community rink to be used for the public and nearby university. The City's portion will be paid via a Community Revitalization Zone Levy (CRL) and other extra revenue like parking. Note that there was no tax rate increase in order to pay for any part of the arena.

The philosophy behind the CRL program is:

Major revitalization projects attract and increase local activity, investment and development. Economic growth creates additional tax revenue for all orders of government. Additional municipal and provincial property taxes from the economic growth will help fund the original project.

The amount of new tax revenue that the lands in and around the arena will make for the City on an annual basis, FAR exceeds the $200 million that the City has seeded into this project. There is currently over $2.5 billion in construction going on in the Arena district itself including a 50+ floor hotel (might be as high as 60), 62 floor office/condo (might be as high as 70), a 29 floor office and other retail businesses including a grocer, movie theater complex, restaurants, bars, etc. This district has fast forwarded many new condo high rises that have been announced since the arena was started and would not have existed without the new arena.

The CRL funding forecasts are based on only 40% of the growth predicted in Rollo’s conservative model, and still the CRL was calculated to generate, in net present value, $473 million in new taxes over 20 years.

So how investing $200 million in this multi billion district, getting almost $500 million in new taxation revenue (maybe more) AND revitalizing the city's downtown at the same time is a bad deal...I dont think so.

[Daveography]

^ We've all tried to explain this to esquire many times; he's either not listening or prefers his internal narrative about it over that of the people who live here and watched both the deal unfold and are watching the positive results unfold as we speak.

I'm not saying it would be a good deal for Calgary, just to be clear; the benefits to Edmonton were unique to our situation - Calgary's downtown isn't exactly struggling for revitalization.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by Daveography

- Calgary's downtown isn't exactly struggling for revitalization.

Doesn't mean there isn't equal opportunity both east and west village have a lot of growing room. The key to this is calgarynext and it's terrible choice of location being dropped. A more modest arena being the priority. deal with the stamps once they have a shovel in the ground. Calgary will never see the benefits that Edmonton did. But it may fill holes dowtown and im sure it will spur a ton of restaurants/clubs and some other development.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Doesn't mean there isn't equal opportunity both east and west village have a lot of growing room. The key to this is calgarynext and it's terrible choice of location being dropped. A more modest arena being the priority. deal with the stamps once they have a shovel in the ground. Calgary will never see the benefits that Edmonton did. But it may fill holes dowtown and im sure it will spur a ton of restaurants/clubs and some other development and create a great atmosphere DT on game nights.

The west village lands are certainly ripe for renewal and large enough but in the east village there is not enough spare land any more for an arena or stadium. The Railtown land south of the tracks (south of the east village) could probably accommodate both an arena and stadium and very easily an arena on its own but for some reason isn't under consideration as best as I am aware of.

Now there has been some rumblings of a land swap deal between the city and some of the Flames owners between the west village lands and the Firepark lands that has been rumoured to be owned in part or whole by one or some of the Flames owners but this is all hearsay. For sure though, the east village is not in the cards and for sure one can not compare Edmonton's situation to Calgary's. I am glad that it appears that Edmonton may come up smelling like a rose on this deal but it certainly was a rough road to get where they are.

[logan5]

The Saddledome is huge. Why not renovate it? Seems like a waste to have 2 arenas downtown.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by logan5

The Saddledome is huge. Why not renovate it? Seems like a waste to have 2 arenas downtown.

Saddledome would be tore down or repurposed. Only in Vancouver and LA does 2 arenas exist in 1 city and work in harmony lol

Which brings me to this... Really cool to think about

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-ne...ment-hockey-facility-edmonton-mayor-says