The Official Moncton, NB Project Thread

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is.

The city is building a 10-20 thousand seat stadium, whether the CFL is interested or not. If a local businessperson is willing to pony up the cash to get it going, why shouldn't the city push for a CFL franchise? I mean, the worst thing that could happen is that it would fail, but then it would only be private money lost anyway. On the off chance that it succeeds in the long run, then all the better.

I guess the way I look at it, if it succeeds, it'll be great for the city. If it fails, oh well. We'd have a privately funded white elephant and nothing more.


And for the record, population alone is a poor indicator of a business venture's likelihood of success. The failure of the team in Ottawa probably had more to do with mismanagement or lack of interest. Hell, if Saskatoon can have a team, it can't be that hard.

True but I would hate to see a team finally come to the Maritimes and then fail after a few years.

As for population what you say has merit, but you have to realize Sask fans are die hard and come from all over the province it would be hard pressed to have that type of support here. The CFL because we haven't had a team here is not that big in Atlantic Canada. It would take many years of having a team here to get that kind of support and even than its not a sure thing.

I'm not against a team in Moncton but I just don't think it makes a lot of business sense.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by P Unit

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to be so passionate about Champlain Place. The mall sucks anyway. It looks like and contains the same things as 1000 other malls across the country. I wish people would shop on Main and on St. George more. Actually, someone who lives in Moncton should do a downtown retail photo tour.

There are more empty storefronts than filled ones up along Main street. The situation is a bit better along St.George but there is nothing interesting enough to draw a big crowd down there.

Halifax, Fredericton, and Saint John do a better job in that regard.

[P Unit]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

There are more empty storefronts than filled ones up along Main street.

That's really too bad. Do you guys think that in 10 or 15 years many people are going to look back and be very angry with our civic leaders for willfully promoting malls and big box stores that are cannibalizing the city's downtown?

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by P Unit

That's really too bad. Do you guys think that in 10 or 15 years many people are going to look back and be very angry with our civic leaders for willfully promoting malls and big box stores that are cannibalizing the city's downtown?

I'm already unhappy with them.

[StormShadow]

Originally Posted by P Unit

Wow, I didn't know it was possible to be so passionate about Champlain Place. The mall sucks anyway. It looks like and contains the same things as 1000 other malls across the country.

I had a visit out to Moncton a couple of years ago for the first time in more than 5 years. I was disappointed to see that mall had not been updated, since 89/90. It never used to have dollar stores as tenants either. I was back in Moncton again this past summer and the place looked really shabby. I hope the renovations bring it back to life, but the stuff they are doing like recessed lighting, leather sofas and plants are things that have been in malls across N.A. the last 10+ years.

@Champlain: This might be part of the reason why people are thinking the Mall is a high end one, few people have seen renovations of this scale done to it, but in reality it is nothing new to you or me. It's perspective and perception. I can tell you for sure, that when these types of renovations were happening in other malls 10+ years ago, it gave business a kick in the ass. I am looking forward to get a chance to see the work this summer.

Originally Posted by P Unit

That's really too bad. Do you guys think that in 10 or 15 years many people are going to look back and be very angry with our civic leaders for willfully promoting malls and big box stores that are cannibalizing the city's downtown?

This is a small part of a larger problem. Here's a 20 min video, it's really good. Keep an open mind, have a look at it when you get a chance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ&feature=related

[@Champlain]

Originally Posted by P Unit

That's really too bad. Do you guys think that in 10 or 15 years many people are going to look back and be very angry with our civic leaders for willfully promoting malls and big box stores that are cannibalizing the city's downtown?

Check your facts and your urban planning principles, a vibrant downtown, malls & big box districts can co-exist in the same city. The problem here is Downtown Moncton, because of what it is and what it's not; it's unappealing, there is nothing to draw anyone here, people come to work or they come if there is some sort of festival or something in the summertime, but that's it. Saint John & Fredericton have their challenges, but they are years ahead on this subject!
BTW, Champlain & Trinity are not the problem, downtown would not be better if they would both fail.

[@Champlain]

Stormshadow

The mall now looks great, the 80-90's are gone! Many great things are coming in the next few months and years. Many don't realize that the turnover of tenants won't happen overnight. I don't think I need to explain this to you.

[StormShadow]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Well I think if the second exibition game had happened there may have been momentum but as you know the second one was cancelled due the folding of the Ottawa team that year which makes wonder if a city of about million people can't hold a team how does a much smaller city do it?

The Ottawa team or team(s) have folded more than once. Maybe the public thinks it's a joke, but it comes down to insolvent ownership. They have done a bad job of marketing the team and the league has done a bad job of qualifying owners.

Montreal has also had several CFL teams fail. Today, they are one of the strongest franchises because they finally found the right stadium, and the right ownership group with the right marketing strategy.

I don't know how much of an impact the city councils had in those successes or failures. But I got a feeling we know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

And for the record, population alone is a poor indicator of a business venture's likelihood of success. The failure of the team in Ottawa probably had more to do with mismanagement or lack of interest. Hell, if Saskatoon can have a team, it can't be that hard.

It is very do-able. Just based on the support from city council, you can bank on a team in one form or another once that stadium is built. I can see the city gathering Moncton's business leaders and getting it done. I, for one, can't believe the league is giving Ottawa yet another chance. If it fails again, Moncton can buy that franchise.

Originally Posted by Haliguy

True but I would hate to see a team finally come to the Maritimes and then fail after a few years.

This is one of the reasons why they beat that dead horse called Ottawa. Halifax has already had a team fail, only it's worse because it couldn't even get off the ground. Halifax didn't have the team or the league's back, they could have built a stadium if they cared enough to. When there's a will there's a way.

Y'know, I gotta say this about major events (sports, concerts, etc.) in Atlantic Canada: Halifax has a track record. And so does Moncton. (I'm really biting my tongue here )

[Sony500]

I think one of the major problems downtown is parking, you should be able to park your car in front of, or close to the store you want to go to. In Fredericton, they have a lot of streets in what you call their downtown, and there are parking spaces all along the streets.

[StormShadow]

Originally Posted by Sony500

I think one of the major problems downtown is parking, you should be able to park your car in front of, or close to the store you want to go to. In Fredericton, they have a lot of streets in what you call their downtown, and there are parking spaces all along the streets.

Guys, if you get a chance watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeX...eature=related



btw, Sony500, you are correct- unfortunately.

[P Unit]

Originally Posted by @Champlain

Check your facts and your urban planning principles, a vibrant downtown, malls & big box districts can co-exist in the same city. The problem here is Downtown Moncton, because of what it is and what it's not; it's unappealing, there is nothing to draw anyone here, people come to work or they come if there is some sort of festival or something in the summertime, but that's it. Saint John & Fredericton have their challenges, but they are years ahead on this subject!
BTW, Champlain & Trinity are not the problem, downtown would not be better if they would both fail.

I'm of the opinion that a successful downtown tends to happen in spite of suburban mega stores, not because of a symbiotic relationship that actually works for both entities. My statement was in response to a remark about how dead downtown Moncton's retail scene, so obviously it's not working out too well for this particular city. I'd also be very interested in hearing a respected planner advocating for large scale, suburban and exurban, highway-dependent national chain stores as a positive (or at least neutral) addition to a city with regards to downtown vibrancy.

[StormShadow]

Originally Posted by P Unit

I'd also be very interested in hearing a respected planner advocating for large scale, suburban and exurban, highway-dependent national chain stores as a positive (or at least neutral) addition to a city with regards to downtown vibrancy.

Yeah right, there isn't any.

[riverviewer]

Originally Posted by StormShadow

Guys, if you get a chance watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeX...eature=related



btw, Sony500, you are correct- unfortunately.

I watched the video and was saddened. The stark images of today's architecture brought to mind the mistakes we are seeing in Moncton.
i.e. A new bridge to Moncton could have meant a new opportunity to build a meaningful entry into the city. Instead we are greated by a flat white wall with an aggressive red Shoppers Drug Mart sign. Says it all, this city is for shoppers, please bring your car.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by StormShadow

The Ottawa team or team(s) have folded more than once. Maybe the public thinks it's a joke, but it comes down to insolvent ownership. They have done a bad job of marketing the team and the league has done a bad job of qualifying owners.

Montreal has also had several CFL teams fail. Today, they are one of the strongest franchises because they finally found the right stadium, and the right ownership group with the right marketing strategy.

I don't know how much of an impact the city councils had in those successes or failures. But I got a feeling we know the answer to that.



It is very do-able. Just based on the support from city council, you can bank on a team in one form or another once that stadium is built. I can see the city gathering Moncton's business leaders and getting it done. I, for one, can't believe the league is giving Ottawa yet another chance. If it fails again, Moncton can buy that franchise.



This is one of the reasons why they beat that dead horse called Ottawa. Halifax has already had a team fail, only it's worse because it couldn't even get off the ground. Halifax didn't have the team or the league's back, they could have built a stadium if they cared enough to. When there's a will there's a way.

Y'know, I gotta say this about major events (sports, concerts, etc.) in Atlantic Canada: Halifax has a track record. And so does Moncton. (I'm really biting my tongue here )

Your kidding right? Halifax has held way more large successful events than Moncton.

[@Champlain]

Originally Posted by P Unit

I'm of the opinion that a successful downtown tends to happen in spite of suburban mega stores, not because of a symbiotic relationship that actually works for both entities. My statement was in response to a remark about how dead downtown Moncton's retail scene, so obviously it's not working out too well for this particular city. I'd also be very interested in hearing a respected planner advocating for large scale, suburban and exurban, highway-dependent national chain stores as a positive (or at least neutral) addition to a city with regards to downtown vibrancy.

Whatever, it's been done here in Canada & the US and in other parts of the world. Look it up, I'm not getting into a debacle with this subject also. Downtown and a large big box district or mall CAN work as a whole in a city, I'm not saying it's ideal or efficient, but yes it's a proven fact that it can work. Vibrand Downtown and Big Box District is possible.

[JasonL-Moncton]

Just heard on the radio...

- Large 3-day country concert to be announced today for Cavendish PEI

(It's concert announcement time!)

- Lewiston Mainiacs are looking to move the franchise are investigating Fredericton, NB

(Maybe we can have a 3-way Rivalry Cup in the near future!)

JL

[@Champlain]

Originally Posted by riverviewer

I watched the video and was saddened. The stark images of today's architecture brought to mind the mistakes we are seeing in Moncton.
i.e. A new bridge to Moncton could have meant a new opportunity to build a meaningful entry into the city. Instead we are greated by a flat white wall with an aggressive red Shoppers Drug Mart sign. Says it all, this city is for shoppers, please bring your car.

, because I agree with you.

[StormShadow]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Your kidding right? Halifax has held way more large successful events than Moncton.

I would hope so, we're talking about one city of 350,000 vs. one of 125,000 right? Halifax has successfully hosted the World Jr.'s and the Memorial Cup and then some. But since you asked, here's my take on it:

2 events from the Maritimes have made national news headlines in the past couple of years:

#1- Rolling Stones concert at Magnetic Hill, one of largest crowd sizes in Canadian concert history.

#2- The Celine Dion Concert cancellation in Halifax. Love or hate Celine Dion, it was Halifax's ATTITUDE that got national press and for all the wrong reasons. For concert promoters, it gave the city a black eye and it will hurt them when trying to attract the large outdoor shows.

When you go back and look at what could have been the Atlantic Schooners and look at how Halifax also had the Commonwealth Games in the bag, but walked away from them; it adds up to a city that is apathetic for major events.

Just to be clear, I do not doubt Halifax has hosted many successful events. By the same token, you have to acknowledge the failures. In comparison, Moncton has a track record of overachieving. Concert promoters and a league like the CFL are going to explore other options instead.

Originally Posted by JasonL-Moncton

Just heard on the radio...

- Large 3-day country concert to be announced today for Cavendish PEI

I like PEI, it's a beautiful place, but that concert site has got to be difficult to get to. When you add it all up, that's a tough sell.

[JasonL-Moncton]

I agree SS...I went to the Aerosmith concert and that was a nightmare (band was great, site was not). So I am not holding my breath for that.

Bridgedale Blvd. in Riverview has been put on hold:

Riverview drops proposed road - for now
Published Tuesday March 3rd, 2009
By Eric Lewis
Times & Transcript Staff


Riverview's proposed Bridgedale Boulevard, a road that would veer off of Gunningsville Boulevard and wrap around the eastern end of the town, opening up dozens of acres of commercial space, is off the books for now.

Town council held a brief meeting yesterday afternoon to rescind its five-year capital plan, which was approved in December. Council then approved a new five-year plan, but not without some debate.

Bridgedale Boulevard, an $18-million project that was budgeted for next year, was dropped from the town's five-year capital plan to bring the town's projected debt ratio down to around 20 per cent.

The province's Municipal Capital Borrowing Board, which approves and hands out loans to towns and cities for capital projects like Bridgedale Boulevard, raises red flags when debt ratios climb toward 20 per cent. That is because municipalities need about 80 per cent of their budget to pay for essential services, salaries and other expenses.

When council approved its five-year capital plan last year, Mayor Clarence Sweetland says he realized the town's debt ratio would climb above the accepted 20 per cent.

But he says council believed at the time that the borrowing board would approve it anyway.

Since then, town finance director Robert Higson and town manager David Muir suggested to council that it might not want to risk trying to get the plan approved because if it wasn't, it could delay getting other projects going.

The mayor couldn't say what Riverview's projected debt ratio would be if it went ahead with Bridgedale Boulevard next year as planned and Higson was away on vacation yesterday.

While council approved the new five-year plan without the $18-million boulevard yesterday, it was not without some debate.

Ward 2 Councillor Ian Macdonald noted that while Bridgedale Boulevard was projected to cost $18 million, it was expected that the cost would be shared between Riverview and the provincial and federal governments, meaning Riverview's share might only be about $6 million.

However, Mayor Sweetland said that municipalities are obligated to budget the entire cost of a project, and he noted after the meeting that even if the town's budget only reflected the $6 million it would pay, the town would still be over a 20 per cent debt ratio.

Macdonald also pointed out that other municipalities have had their capital plans approved even with a debt ratio over 20 per cent, and he questioned why Riverview would be at risk of having its plan not approved.

Both Macdonald and Ward 1 Coun. Claude Curwin pointed out that Dieppe's debt ratio is over 20 per cent.

Earlier this year, the Times & Transcript reported that Dieppe's debt cost ratio was 22.54 per cent while Moncton's was 15.2 per cent and, at the time, Riverview's was projected at 19 per cent.

Sweetland noted that while he didn't want to speak for others, he said it's likely Dieppe has "a more concrete plan for overcoming that debt ratio" and Riverview just isn't there yet.

All the councillors agreed that they didn't want to operate with a debt ratio the town couldn't sustain, but Macdonald said he doesn't like putting major projects on the back burner especially when other municipalities are allowed to operate with a higher debt ratio.

Sweetland stressed several times that Riverview wasn't dismissing Bridgedale Boulevard entirely, and it could revisit the project when budgeting for 2010 later this year.

"It doesn't mean it's not going to happen," he said. "We'll get back to it again in a year or so."

Deputy Mayor Anne Seamans said that even if Riverview's five-year capital plan were to be approved by the Municipal Capital Borrowing Board, the town wouldn't be ready to move forward on Bridgedale Boulevard for at least a year. The town needs to expropriate land for the project, which can be a lengthy project.

Coun.-at-Large Sherry Wilson noted that there had been discussion at one point on putting in just a portion of Bridgedale Boulevard to open the area up a bit to allow business to move in.

"I think it's something we should look at," she said.

Sweetland suggested it is a possibility council could consider at another time, but he noted that council needed to settle its capital plan soon because it would be meeting with the borrowing board on March 9.

Ward 3 Coun. Wayne Bennett and Seamans both suggested that council approve the revised five-year plan just to keep things moving along, noting that council can still tackle the Bridgedale Boulevard project another day.

Macdonald was the lone member of council to vote against the resolution to the town's five-year plan.

Bridgedale Boulevard is part of the town's long-term plans to open up more commercial space. While Riverview has a reputation for being a bedroom community, the town is trying to bring in more commercial development to bring more cash into the town.

Gunningsville Boulevard, opened in 2007, was the first major road to be added. Bridgedale Boulevard is expected to wrap around the eastern end of town and, further down the road, West Riverview Boulevard is expected to wrap around the west end of town.

Currently, the town is hoping to split a $4.9-million trunk sewer project along Gunningsville Boulevard three ways with the provincial and federal governments. The trunk sewer line would allow them to open the road to business.

[q12]

Originally Posted by StormShadow

I would hope so, we're talking about one city of 350,000 vs. one of 125,000 right? Halifax has successfully hosted the World Jr.'s and the Memorial Cup and then some. But since you asked, here's my take on it:

2 events from the Maritimes have made national news headlines in the past couple of years:

#1- Rolling Stones concert at Magnetic Hill, one of largest crowd sizes in Canadian concert history.

#2- The Celine Dion Concert cancellation in Halifax. Love or hate Celine Dion, it was Halifax's ATTITUDE that got national press and for all the wrong reasons. For concert promoters, it gave the city a black eye and it will hurt them when trying to attract the large outdoor shows.

When you go back and look at what could have been the Atlantic Schooners and look at how Halifax also had the Commonwealth Games in the bag, but walked away from them; it adds up to a city that is apathetic for major events.

Just to be clear, I do not doubt Halifax has hosted many successful events. By the same token, you have to acknowledge the failures. In comparison, Moncton has a track record of overachieving. Concert promoters and a league like the CFL are going to explore other options instead.



I like PEI, it's a beautiful place, but that concert site has got to be difficult to get to. When you add it all up, that's a tough sell.

Halifax has hosted many successful events, including all three major world hockey champions (womens, mens, and juniors), which no other city in the world has done.

You have one big concert in a field and you think your going to end up with every major event in in the region, get real. Moncton is a small boring town in the middle of nowhere, and if I had to live there for more than a day I think I'd go insane.

P.S. Halifax is more like 400,000 not to mention a beautiful city.