Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, I regretted typing it once I submitted it. I apologize.

But you must admit that current Quebec policies are designed to marginalize the anglophone community to the point of complete irrelevance.

What will Quebec do to world class anglophone institutions like McGill University? Will they receive progressively diminishing funding levels into the future to the point that the faculty begins to leave and the student body withers away? Will there be a McGill University in 100 years???
.

You should do your research before being all drama queen like that. It's ironic that you mention McGill, since the Quebec government just announced a 800 millions dollars investment in the university to transform the old Victoria hospital into a new campus. That's almost a billion dollars from the QC taxpayers going to McGill. Think about that. How much funds does Ontario or New Brunswick are giving to French institutions again ?

https://reporter.mcgill.ca/a-major-s...w-vic-project/

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

How much funds does Ontario or New Brunswick are giving to French institutions again ?

UdeM in Moncton is pretty well supported, has multiple graduate programs as well as medical and law schools.

There is no comprehensive English language university in Moncton.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

As if they'd do any better if NB was its own U.S. state.

In this scenario, they could become Americans (just like everyone in New England right now who has Quebecois roots; a significant percentage) or else move to the other side of Baie des Chaleurs. In the long run, they'd be safer living in the maritime-oriented parts of an independent Quebec than they are right now anyway.

As much as the idea of annexing Acadien parts of New Brunswick to Quebec would be appealling to the new République, Quebec would never attempt that as it would give legitimacy to partition attempts by other groups within Quebec.

So one can expect Quebec to always hold the line that its borders are inviolable (which is probably true constitutionally and legally) for this reason.

As such, the options for Acadiens would be to stay put in New Brunswick (either part of Canada-sans-Québec or a new US state) or move to Quebec.

It's always been the Parti Québécois position that francophones from outside Quebec will be welcome to move to an independent Quebec no questions asked.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

UdeM in Moncton is pretty well supported, has multiple graduate programs as well as medical and law schools.

There is no comprehensive English language university in Moncton.

Sounds like Blaine Higgs still owes the U de Moncton about 200-250 million dollars if he wants to keep up with what Quebec is doing for McGill.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stats for the island of Montréal:

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 50.2% >> 49.3%
- English: 19.1% >> 20.9%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 56.0% >> 55.0%
- English: 27.6% >> 30.0%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 70.8% >> 67.4%
- English: 38.9% >> 42.1%

At current rates, it's only a question of time before English is more spoken than French in Montréal. When that happens, it's game over for the French language in the entire province of Québec (there isn't the Catholic church and the vibrant rural life that existed back in the days when Montréal was majority Anglophone to save French in the rest of Québec if Montréal becomes majority Anglophone again).

I also think that there's never been an era where it's truer that "as go cities, so go their hinterlands". And I think the phenomenon is only going to accelerate.

Funny how we are on SSP where this is a given (and seen as a positive thing) on all of the other threads, but when it comes to the Quebec question all of a sudden it doesn't apply, and somehow the ROQ (rest of Québec! ) will be able to resist any future influence of its biggest urban area - with half of Quebec's population - forever.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As much as the idea of annexing Acadien parts of New Brunswick to Quebec would be appealling to the new République

Talking of the Acadien parts of New Brunswick, here are the data for the Francophone counties of New Brunswick. Not looking good at all.

Data refer to this group of blue counties:



Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 58.1% >> 55.5%
- English: 41.2% >> 43.0%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 54.5% >> 51.3%
- English: 45.9% >> 48.3%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 48.7% >> 46.3%
- English: 57.7% >> 59.9%

Louisana here we come!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of the Acadien parts of New Brunswick, here are the data for the Francophone counties of New Brunswick. Not looking good at all.

Data refer to this group of blue counties:



Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 58.1% >> 55.5%
- English: 41.2% >> 43.0%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 54.5% >> 51.3%
- English: 45.9% >> 48.3%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 48.7% >> 46.3%
- English: 57.7% >> 59.9%

Louisana here we come!

An entire side of my family's roots are in that area, so I know what's going on.

All is not lost but I must say that for a long time I believed that things were on pretty solid ground there. This is not really what I would have expected just a decade or two ago.

As I keep telling MonctonRad: things can change really fast.

[New Brisavoine]

Yeah, and these data are only 10 years apart. Only 10 years! This isn't a long time period, and yet how much French has declined in those 10 years, it's crazy. I can't imagine what it would be if we compared 1991 with 2021. By the 2030s French will have become a minority language in Acadia, and by 2050 probably as extinguished as French in Northern Ontario.

[Acajack]

Hard to not see that the bottom is falling out on the "promise of Canada" for francophones both inside and outside of Quebec.

I hoped it wouldn't happen but always thought it might, but one thing is sure is that I didn't think it would happen so soon. And the stuff that was supposed to offset it (like francophone immigration - which is in fact booming) hasn't paid off as much as anticipated.

I don't even know who or what is to blame singularly, or even if it's possible to place the blame somewhere in particular.

Though contrary to previous historical churning from francophone Canada (starting in the 1960s) one thing I notice is the near-total indifference and lack of sympathy from anglophone Canadians. That's a big change.

Finally, I'd caution people against concluding too quickly that this lead to a new, strong and decisive push for Quebec independence. I do think that sovereignty will be "back" in the next few years, but how strongly I don't know.

I still don't have a good sense of how many people will simply be resigned to the decline, and how the other reactions to this trend will parse out.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, and these data are only 10 years apart. Only 10 years! This isn't a long time period, and yet how much French has declined in those 10 years, it's crazy. I can't imagine what it would be if we compared 1991 with 2021. By the 2030s French will have become a minority language in Acadia, and by 2050 probably as extinguished as French in Northern Ontario.

The very most Acadien regions and communities, some of them 100% francophone, are more threatened by outmigration and aging than assimilation. I often say that the last person in Shippagan who will turn out the lights when the town dies will be a francophone.

But other parts of NB with Acadien majorities and anglophone minorities, often with better economies, are where we are seeing the anglicization of francophones.

This story was in the news recently:

https://www.msn.com/fr-ca/actualites...es/ar-AA17gyyu

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hard to not see that the bottom is falling out on the "promise of Canada" for francophones both inside and outside of Quebec.

...

To what promise are you referring?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

UdeM in Moncton is pretty well supported, has multiple graduate programs as well as medical and law schools.

There is no comprehensive English language university in Moncton.

Seems that Moncton is where Montreal was in the 1820s and 1830s, except with linguistic groups reversed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To what promise are you referring?

You obviously know what I am referring to, and that it's more of a metaphorical thing - a hope rather than a literal pledge that someone has made.

Though in referendum campaigns and other politically tente periods the language can come pretty close to a pledge (or promise) from the defenders of federalism.

EDIT: And if I were to translate what I wrote into French, I would use the word "espoir" as opposed to "promesse". But again, you knew that already.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You obviously know what I am referring to, and that it's more of metaphorical thing - a hope rather than a literal pledge that someone has made.

Though in referendum campaigns and other politically tente periods the language can come pretty close to a pledge (or promise) from the defenders of federalism.

EDIT: And if I were to translate what I wrote into French, I would use the word "espoir" as opposed to "promesse". But again, you knew that already.

No, my question was serious. I didn't know whether you were referring to something specific.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

As somebody who is not overly religious, I can still understand how important religion is to some. Most of us can understand that there are many cases where religion and culture are almost interchangeable, where religion and culture are inseparable.

So, while a government (as a voice of its people) can qualify something as a dress code limitation, the people who are most affected by such actions see it as a government-led limitation on their culture. It's kind of ironic that the people who are shouting the loudest about their culture being limited or suppressed don't seem to understand the hypocrisy of this.

So are the rules of society as they exist somewhere else in the world and differ from ours, automatically transportable and applicable in Canada simply by virtue of some people moving here?

I don't see that as what multiculturalism is, or at least it's not what it should be. In addition to this being unworkable in the long term.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

No, my question was serious. I didn't know whether you were referring to something specific.

At this point I expect to live long enough to see Canada try and weasel its way out of French as an official language (at least in the way the linguistic duality plays out now) and that things will start to be scaled back. (We're already seeing the early signs of this.)

I am sure we will hear the same type of historically revisionist denials we always hear, i.e. that there never really was a formal long-term to commitment to bilingualism, or something like that.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So are the rules of society as they exist somewhere else in the world and differ from ours, automatically transportable and applicable in Canada simply by virtue of some people moving here?

I don't see that as what multiculturalism is, or at least it's not what it should be. In addition to this being unworkable in the long term.

It may be fair to say that we live in a differently changeable world now than it was historically, so not much is really off the table.

I have a question for consideration, perhaps a bit off-topic, and that is; is the Quebec culture less different from the ROC than the culture of France is different from that of the UK? If so, it proves there has been some cultural movement, ingress, and absorption over the centuries, and the two are ultimately moving closer together.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At this point I expect to live long enough to see Canada try and weasel its way out of French as an official language (at least in the way the linguistic duality plays out now) and that things will start to be scaled back. (We're already seeing the early signs of this.)

I am sure we will hear the same type of historically revisionist denials we always hear, i.e. that there never really was a formal long-term to commitment to bilingualism, or something like that.

Even if the Constitution were to undergo a wholesale revision, that seems unlikely in the extreme to me. It might be a subject of some debate if Quebec were out of the federation, but even then I wouldn't bet money on it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

It may be fair to say that we live in a differently changeable world now than it was historically, so not much is really off the table.

I have a question for consideration, perhaps a bit off-topic, and that is; is the Quebec culture less different from the ROC than the culture of France is different from that of the UK? If so, it proves there has been some cultural movement, ingress, and absorption over the centuries, and the two are ultimately moving closer together.

I would say that Québec and the ROC are much closer culturally than France and the UK.

We share the same country (state) after all and there are minority communities, Anglo-Quebecers and francophones outside Quebec, within each "solitude" that act as bridges towards the other.

You don't have any of that in the France-UK pairing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Even if the Constitution were to undergo a wholesale revision, that seems unlikely in the extreme to me. It might be a subject of some debate if Quebec were out of the federation, but even then I wouldn't bet money on it.

It's Canada we're talking about, so appearances and façades will be preserved at all costs. That alone means that getting rid of French officially as an official language is unlikely, barring Quebec independence - and even then?, as you point out.

Still, do you see for example the requirement for senior federal bureaucrats and officials to be bilingual in English and French being maintained in the medium to long term? I sure don't. It's already being challenged and there are already more and more exceptions to the rule as it is.

I can definitely see a future where French remains official in the law, but that its place in the federal apparatus is akin to that of the "official" Irish language in the Republic of Ireland.