West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Horus]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is only a couple of places that STO can plug in. All will provide worse service than today.

At a station location level, with the introduction of transfers, I'd agree. In the context of an entire trip? I'm not so sure.

Having a dedicated ROW over the river to the nearest Confed line station, be it Rideau (via Alexandra bridge), Lyon (via Portage bridge) or Bayview (via POW bridge) will save travel time over the current service. There is no question of that. Will that time saving exceed the time penalty of having to transfer to the Confed Line station? I'd think that it would.

So if the price of having a dedicated ROW over the river is that STO cannot go past the first convenient transfer location, that's probably a trade off most STO users could live with.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Horus

At a station location level, with the introduction of transfers, I'd agree. In the context of an entire trip? I'm not so sure.

Having a dedicated ROW over the river to the nearest Confed line station, be it Rideau (via Alexandra bridge), Lyon (via Portage bridge) or Bayview (via POW bridge) will save travel time over the current service. There is no question of that. Will that time saving exceed the time penalty of having to transfer to the Confed Line station? I'd think that it would.

So if the price of having a dedicated ROW over the river is that STO cannot go past the first convenient transfer location, that's probably a trade off most STO users could live with.

It isn't quite so simple. The POW bridge means transfers to both downtown Ottawa and downtown Hull unless they build two branches.

The Interprovincial bridges means traveling east across downtown Hull, cross the bridge, then transfer to go west across downtown Ottawa.

The Portage bridge means either surface operations to Lyon Station or building a couple of blocks of tunnel. Are we going to bring in a boring machine for a couple of blocks? This is probably the most direct routing for both downtowns.

[Aylmer]

Having just one station might not be desirable simply because of the flow of passengers. Just for Plateau and Aylmer, the STO estimates 6000 pphpd at peak. Add several thousand Ottawa passengers alighting, and you have a pretty ridiculously crowded station at Lyon. A route a bit further downtown could better distribute passenger flows and reduce the number of people having to transfer to a more reasonable number.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Horus

At a station location level, with the introduction of transfers, I'd agree. In the context of an entire trip? I'm not so sure.

Having a dedicated ROW over the river to the nearest Confed line station, be it Rideau (via Alexandra bridge), Lyon (via Portage bridge) or Bayview (via POW bridge) will save travel time over the current service. There is no question of that. Will that time saving exceed the time penalty of having to transfer to the Confed Line station? I'd think that it would.

So if the price of having a dedicated ROW over the river is that STO cannot go past the first convenient transfer location, that's probably a trade off most STO users could live with.

"Probably" a trade off worth doing is not much of a endorsement of a project that would cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It isn't quite so simple. The POW bridge means transfers to both downtown Ottawa and downtown Hull unless they build two branches.

The Interprovincial bridges means traveling east across downtown Hull, cross the bridge, then transfer to go west across downtown Ottawa.

The Portage bridge means either surface operations to Lyon Station or building a couple of blocks of tunnel. Are we going to bring in a boring machine for a couple of blocks? This is probably the most direct routing for both downtowns.

Good Day.

Yep.... this is indeed why STO's concept of transfers at Lyon makes sense - but I would agree with others that extending it along to Parl as well would make more sense.
Surface on Sparks might be acceptable, but a tunnel would be better. IMO.
And there would be no need for a TBM - a roadheader would be sufficient, since the C-Line tunnel from Commissioners/Bronson to Elgin was 'minimal' problem,
and they now know what they would be dealing with.

EnJoy!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You guys are smoking something good if you think Ottawa is going to allow and the Quebec and federal governments are going to fund an STO LRT going through Ottawa. Surface or sub-surface. The lines have to be designed to plug-in to the Ottawa network at specific connection points. That's it. That's all.

Why would Ottawa have a problem with a sub-surface route? Cut and cover might not fly but a tunnel across the river funded by Gatineau, Quebec and Feds seems innocuous. Of course Ottawa won't pay for any of it, and the free transfer into the Ottawa system might not last but I can't see why Ottawa would stop it.

Surface might be more difficult to sell. Ottawa does have a lot of goodwill and general public good attitude and getting the busses off the streets would be a further incentive. If it added any value to the Ottawa system it seems it would be an easier sell.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is only a couple of places that STO can plug in. All will provide worse service than today.

This is like arguing that Orleans residents are worse off because they lost their one seat ride to the core with the loss of Express buses. Bigger cities necessitate transfers. People need to get over it.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Why would Ottawa have a problem with a sub-surface route? Cut and cover might not fly but a tunnel across the river funded by Gatineau, Quebec and Feds seems innocuous. Of course Ottawa won't pay for any of it, and the free transfer into the Ottawa system might not last but I can't see why Ottawa would stop it.

1. Disruption.

2. Feasibility and risk. Especially when Sparks is right next to Queen.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Surface might be more difficult to sell. Ottawa does have a lot of goodwill and general public good attitude and getting the busses off the streets would be a further incentive. If it added any value to the Ottawa system it seems it would be an easier sell.

Ottawa doesn’t need to approve a subway run by a different transit system through its city to get the buses off the street. They could simply deny STO the right to operate in the city if they wanted to.

In reality, they will insist on forced transfers at the first opportunity for LRT. And bracketing the CBD with Rideau and Lyon is effectively this. And the existence of a Gatineau LRT is just the excuse needed to command the reduction or elimination of STO routes through Ottawa’s CBD.

[Truenorth00]

Progress:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ga...unding-province-quebec-secured-1.5168105

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ottawa doesn’t need to approve a subway run by a different transit system through its city to get the buses off the street. They could simply deny STO the right to operate in the city if they wanted to.

Does Ottawa actually have that authority?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Does Ottawa actually have that authority?

I think so, although the feds could intervene.

[lrt's friend]

This is like arguing that Orleans residents are worse off because they lost their one seat ride to the core with the loss of Express buses. Bigger cities necessitate transfers. People need to get over it.

It is not reasonable to expect people to transfer 3 times to reach the top transit destination, downtown, in a city this size. Nobody should have to transfer more than once. I can understand having to transfer twice if you are starting and ending off the trunk line, but three times?? Why are we expecting people to tolerate that day in, day out?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think so, although the feds could intervene.

Isn't that almost saying that we will not allow people with Quebec plates to drive on Ottawa streets?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Isn't that almost saying that we will not allow people with Quebec plates to drive on Ottawa streets?

I don’t think so. STO busses are commercial vehicles that want to carry out business in Ottawa.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is not reasonable to expect people to transfer 3 times to reach the top transit destination, downtown, in a city this size. Nobody should have to transfer more than once. I can understand having to transfer twice if you are starting and ending off the trunk line, but three times?? Why are we expecting people to tolerate that day in, day out?

Exactly.

Let's also remember that it's also not in Ottawa's benefit to force all Gatineau passengers to transfer onto the Confederation Line. As I've said before, by time the system opens, the STO expects there to be over 6000 passengers per hour heading downtown from Aylmer/Plateau, 12 000 per peak. Although I haven't seen the numbers for Hull/Gatineau, I'd imagine it would be at least as large and likely more.

Having some 30 000+ extra passengers every peak period squeezing onto already-crowded Ottawa trains inconveniences Ottawa passengers as much as those from Gatineau, and results in a slower system for everyone. Denying the STO a surface route downtown and forcing them to overcrowd OC Transpo's system is the closest thing I can imagine to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Exactly.

Let's also remember that it's also not in Ottawa's benefit to force all Gatineau passengers to transfer onto the Confederation Line. As I've said before, by time the system opens, the STO expects there to be over 6000 passengers per hour heading downtown from Aylmer/Plateau, 12 000 per peak. Although I haven't seen the numbers for Hull/Gatineau, I'd imagine it would be at least as large and likely more.

Having some 30 000+ extra passengers every peak period squeezing onto already-crowded Ottawa trains inconveniences Ottawa passengers as much as those from Gatineau, and results in a slower system for everyone. Denying the STO a surface route downtown and forcing them to overcrowd OC Transpo's system is the closest thing I can imagine to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I think most passengers headed downtown would walk from Lyon or Rideau rather than transfer for one stop.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think most passengers headed downtown would walk from Lyon or Rideau rather than transfer for one stop.

You are probably right, but this assumes two connections from STO. This is not going to happen unless the feds fund an interprovincial loop, which would mean full STO service throughout downtown. Most likely, we will only see a connection at Lyon forcing transfers for many people.

Besides, forcing people to walk just provides an illusion of better service. People will have to change their travel times to account for a 10 or 15 minute walk.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think most passengers headed downtown would walk from Lyon or Rideau rather than transfer for one stop.

Originally Posted by lrt's_friend
You are probably right, but this assumes two connections from STO. This is not going to happen unless the feds fund an interprovincial loop, which would mean full STO service throughout downtown. Most likely, we will only see a connection at Lyon forcing transfers for many people.

Besides, forcing people to walk just provides an illusion of better service. People will have to change their travel times to account for a 10 or 15 minute walk.

Good Day.

Agreed.... .which is why in the full I can well see the western side from Portage bridge come up to Lyon AND Parl (either on or under Sparks - my preference is under). And the eastern side across the Alexandra (when rebuilt to accommodate) should go at least to the passage beside the Chateau, or maybe even a bit farther south to allow a cross-T to or over the top of Rideau station tunnel.

As for funding.... pure city-on-city (Ott & Gat) and Feds, for all the sections that cross the river - no choice - the Provs will not touch those parts.
As for a loop.... I just cannot see it happening. The Memorial area has become just too sacrosanct and untouchable. IMO.

Fantasy network time ? Would still be nicer.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is not reasonable to expect people to transfer 3 times to reach the top transit destination, downtown, in a city this size. Nobody should have to transfer more than once. I can understand having to transfer twice if you are starting and ending off the trunk line, but three times?? Why are we expecting people to tolerate that day in, day out?

I partially agree with yo, but 3 transfers is not the end of the world especially when transferring from 1 high frequency line to another. One transfer could be eliminated if we had a regional ( interprovincial ) transit authority. That will never happen because no city or province wants to give out its rights and the federal government does not want to assume them.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Wow, so Aylmer is getting LRT for sure. :O

[Truenorth00]

Where does three transfers come from?

Bus -> STO LRT -> Ottawa LRT. That looks like two transfers to me.

And 6000 pphpd is not even close to enough to justify allowing a second subway by another city no less, through Ottawa’s downtown core. Aside from the fact that not one entity has mentioned this idea or showed any willingness to fund something like that.

Watch how quickly Gatineau’s LRT plan gets killed if they are moronic enough to suggest putting a parallel subway through Ottawa’s downtown core. I think they are smarter than railfans here though.....