West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I suspect Tesladom is confusing Gatineau's LRT with Moose Rail. He might want to move his discussion to the Rural Commuter Rail thread.

LOL:

[Horus]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I suspect Tesladom is confusing Gatineau's LRT with Moose Rail. He might want to move his discussion to the Rural Commuter Rail thread.

Originally Posted by Tesladom

LOL:

Again, that's not an official plan or proposal, it's just someone's fantasy transit map.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

Again, that's not an official plan or proposal, it's just someone's fantasy transit map.

Agreed. It wasn't my intention to imply otherwise.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

LOL:

I'm glad you like my fantasy concept map.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day.

Yep... @Tesladom.... please..... you need to read the threads, -completely-, from the beginning, before you start making light of people, or mis-attributing sources of material.
It's important, for your credibility, and so that others are not mislead.
And yes, that takes time...... I spent several months reading all the threads in this transportation forum before starting to comment on any thread here.

IE: Calm down, and get it right.

EnJoy!

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

LOL:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. - Abraham Lincoln

[Horus]

So I went to the public information session on Monday evening in Aylmer. They were showing those videos referenced a few posts back and had some people there to explain the options and answer questions.

Most of the information seemed to be in the "this is what we are going to do" domain as opposed to the "this is how we're going to do it". They didn't seem to have answers for some of the specific design or implementation details, such as getting past the Champlain bridge, how connections to Lyon station would work, etc..

Questionnaire is up on the STO website for public feedback.
http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=792&L=en#c12509

[agl]

Originally Posted by Horus

So I went to the public information session on Monday evening in Aylmer. They were showing those videos referenced a few posts back and had some people there to explain the options and answer questions.

Most of the information seemed to be in the "this is what we are going to do" domain as opposed to the "this is how we're going to do it". They didn't seem to have answers for some of the specific design or implementation details, such as getting past the Champlain bridge, how connections to Lyon station would work, etc..

Questionnaire is up on the STO website for public feedback.
http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=792&L=en#c12509

I went on Monday night as well. What I found deceiving is that the display boards, also available online, indicate 2030 (ie. opening day) travel times between various destinations, which does not take into account the year over year impact of bus vs. tram capacity with increases in population and traffic congestion. They predict a 33% increase in west Gatineau population by 2051. Even with triple accordion buses, as one of the options proposed, you would still need 2 1/2 of them to equal the capacity of a tram. This will certainly have an effect on reliability and travel times due to bottleneck areas (Champlain Bridge, Taché between UQO and Chaudières, downtown Ottawa), not to mention increased costs with the extra drivers required.

I asked a consultant/staff member about the Portage Bridge to Lyon station options and the potential for a tunnel and she replied that everything is on the table, however I believe I heard her say it's not part of the current study?!? Of course, any tunnel for Gatineau transit in Ottawa would require almost 100% federal financing, as mentioned above, but I would have hoped this was part of the analysis.

As for Rapibus conversion to LRT in order to have coordinating transit systems across Gatineau, she said it's not planned until beyond 2050. That`s going to be a lot of buses still coming into Hull and Ottawa for the next 30 years, where they will continue to share a lane on Portage bridge with either buses or trams from Aylmer. Another option being considered is forcing Rapibus commuters to transfer to LRT in Hull, which could be frustrating for those that need to transfer again to the Confederation after alighting at Lyon.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by agl

As for Rapibus conversion to LRT in order to have coordinating transit systems across Gatineau, she said it's not planned until beyond 2050. That`s going to be a lot of buses still coming into Hull and Ottawa for the next 30 years, where they will continue to share a lane on Portage bridge with either buses or trams from Aylmer. Another option being considered is forcing Rapibus commuters to transfer to LRT in Hull, which could be frustrating for those that need to transfer again to the Confederation after alighting at Lyon.

I did also ask about coordination between the existing Rapibus and the proposed LRT. In the example where LRT is used along Aylmer/Taché, that transfer of Rapibus riders to LRT would be at a newly constructed UQO station on the south side of Boul Taché. I have to admit that I was quite surprised by that proposal.

[Aylmer]

I don't know why they put options like "tram+bus on Portage" on the table when it's clearly not a realistic option.

A Rapibus transfer will likely be required until it's converted to rail, at least for trips heading to Ottawa. However, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; eliminating the need to ration the number of buses running on Wellington would likely mean that local Gatineau buses could once again run directly to Hull, using the Rapibus as a Transitway-like trunk. So instead of a bus-Rapibus transfer for any trips heading to Hull or Ottawa, there would now be direct bus links to Hull and a bus/tram transfer to Ottawa. This would likely result in faster trips, as passengers headed to Hull would no longer have to transfer, and those heading to Ottawa would have a newly congestion-free route all the way downtown.

[agl]

If they go with a transfer point at UQO, they will need a pocket track or two for empty trams to take on Rapibus passengers, as commuters travelling from Aylmer to Terrasses and Portage will still be onboard the eastbound trams. But provided they go with the tram line behind UQO corridor option, it does offer the most space in downtown Hull for bus drop off and laybys just east of the soccer field, and possibly using part of the field itself if required.

[Aylmer]

You'd definitely need some short-stop trams at rush hour between the transfer point and Ottawa. That also isn't a bad thing, since there is very high Ottawa>DT Hull demand in the AM peak, but not nearly as much Aylmer- or Plateau-bound demand.

As for exactly where that transfer point is, I agree that behind UQO would have a great deal of space, but I would caution against forcing a transfer for both Hull- and Ottawa-bound Gatineau passengers, both because it's inconvenient for passengers and because the tram would have to transport a much higher volume of Gatineau passengers at a point where the western trams will be at their fullest. Basically, it's a Bayview situation; trying to cram more people onto already-full LRVs.

A downtown Hull transfer would distill the transferring passengers to just the Ottawa-bound ones, eliminating all transfers for anyone heading for Hull. As many of the Aylmer/Plateau passengers would be getting off in Hull, you'd also have more capacity in the trams for Ottawa-bound Gatineau passengers.

This is a quick little sketch of what I'm thinking; The green bus trunk carries local Gatineau/Hull lines straight to downtown Hull, where they meet up with the LRT line.

[Acajack]

Pretty much every citizen I've heard coming out of those consultations has said they want a rail-based system of some kind.

Of course, that's a bit like asking people if they want free beer.

[Horus]

Also part of the rationale to the UQO location was that it would enable buses to continue down the exclusive Rapibus ROW so that the speed of that route would make up for the relatively inconvenient location.

I do agree with Aylmer though, Chaudiere would make a much smarter transfer point.

[lrt's friend]

A Sparks Street tramway was discarded years ago as an option. So much for the Stanley Cup monument as well. A tramway that will shrink Confederation Square is also a no go. So using Sparks gets Gatineau passengers no further than Lyon Street.

If STO wants a tramway to the Rideau Centre, it needs to follow Albert and Slater.

Transfers between local buses to Rapibus, in Hull and at Lyon Street requiring a block walk? Is nobody thinking about the customers? Needing more LRVs just from Hull to Lyon Street to accommodate Rapibus transferring passengers and a massive transfer station that close to downtown. What kind of logic is this? The size of that Hull station can only be contained by not running local buses to that transfer station.

We need a plan that is not just technically feasible but also will serve customers well. Three transfers to the centre of downtown is not a good solution. How can that be sold to the public?

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So much for the Stanley Cup monument as well.

A tremendous loss

A tramway that will shrink Confederation Square is also a no go. So using Sparks gets Gatineau passengers no further than Lyon Street.

I posted a sketch-up of what a Sparks-Rideau alignment could look like without significantly impacting the size of Confederation Sq. We have to remember that there is actually a lot of redundant roadspace in that area. Think two-block lane for parking a seasonal amphibus.

Transfers between local buses to Rapibus, in Hull and at Lyon Street requiring a block walk?

I mean, keep in mind that the distance between Queen and Sparks is about 50 metres. I'd be much more concerned about the distance between the metro platforms and the surface, which is likely to be a bigger dissuasion to transferring for anyone going less than a few stations.

I would agree that you'd want to avoid forcing a Lyon transfer, which is why I think the STO should continue rapid transit service at least as far as the eastern CBD (O'Connor, Metcalfe, Elgin area).

Is nobody thinking about the customers? Needing more LRVs just from Hull to Lyon Street to accommodate Rapibus transferring passengers and a massive transfer station that close to downtown. What kind of logic is this? The size of that Hull station can only be contained by not running local buses to that transfer station.

The logic is that the STO's ridership is growing by leaps and bounds (15% increase over last year alone), and is outstripping the capacity of at-grade buses. We need to start moving to a higher-capacity mode for trunk routes.

Running local buses along the Rapibus is an interim solution until that Eastern trunk is also converted to LRT, kind of like a better Tunney's pre-Phase 2. Better, because instead of having almost everyone needing to transfer like Tunney's or Blair, only about half will be going any further than Hull.



But here's the bottom line: in 10 years (the STO's objective for this project), the STO's ridership between Hull and Ottawa will be too high for it to be effectively served by buses at peak. We can eke out an extra year or two here and there with some band-aid solutions (all-door boarding, lane reconfigurations, etc.), but the reality is that a higher-capacity mode will be necessary. There are a million reasons why one scenario will be more or less difficult or desirable than another, but anything that involves buses doing the heavy lifting between cores on the surface or a transfer-less ride downtown at peak will just not be geometrically possible.

[Horus]

A Lyon station connection would be immensely easier if the STO station were underground at Sparks/Lyon.

In a situation where this was the terminus station for the STO LRT line, having a concourse level underground connection to Lyon (inside the fare-paid zone) would make transfers there extremely easy. As mentioned, the distance from Sparks to Queen is so short, it should be easy to create a connecting tunnel between two underground stations.

The issue then, however, is that with the portion of the plan to force Rapibus riders onto the LRT on the Gatineau side of the river, Rapibus riders heading to Rideau station area could be faced with potentially 3 transfers to reach their destination (Local STO > Rapibus > STO LRT > C-line). Even under the easiest and most comfortable transfer configurations, that would be a tough sell.

That said, it seems counterproductive to have STO run surface LRT vehicles through downtown Ottawa when Ottawa has gone to great lengths and expense to remove so many of their own transit vehicles from surface routes.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Horus

That said, it seems counterproductive to have STO run surface LRT vehicles through downtown Ottawa when Ottawa has gone to great lengths and expense to remove so many of their own transit vehicles from surface routes.

The DOTT wasn't built out of concern for the surface, but instead because the volume of passengers passing on the line would've already been at the upper end of surface rail's capacity on opening day.

But surface transit isn't undesirable on its own. In fact, it brings a lot of advantages, allowing for more stations and far easier access than walking down four flights and back up four on the other end. For example, anyone heading from the Market to Bank is unlikely to take the metro (the time to get down to the platform and back up alone would already eat up some 5 minutes) but surface LRT would be a convenient choice.

What we have to keep in mind first and foremost, however, is that it's not a choice between no surface transit and surface transit. It's a choice between having a bus every 20-30 seconds, or a tram every few minutes.

[Truenorth00]

You guys are smoking something good if you think Ottawa is going to allow and the Quebec and federal governments are going to fund an STO LRT going through Ottawa. Surface or sub-surface. The lines have to be designed to plug-in to the Ottawa network at specific connection points. That's it. That's all.

[lrt's friend]

There is only a couple of places that STO can plug in. All will provide worse service than today.