SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[Riverman]

^ If you think you can make it work and make a million, raise some capital and go at it!

Except to raise capital you will need a business plan, and the business plan will show why it won't work.

[bomberjet]

So what will work? That's the point. There are never any solutions, just complaining. If nothing will work, we should just shut the forum down, close up the City and move on. That's what I get out of all this. Developers are always on the teet, can't make it work otherwise. So what do we do?

[Riverman]

Simplicity has explained it very well numerous times but as you said, people on here confuse facts with negativity. Facts are facts. Grocery stores are profitable when large volumes per customer are purchased. These large volumes must be loaded into a car which means parking lots, which is why grocery stores are in the suburbs.

[CoryB]

Thanks for the reply Simplicity. I could be wrong. Ultimately for a downtown grocery to succeed it needs customers, and lots of them every day.

That said, using the "click and collect" model I am surprised someone hasn't started running that out of a suburban store in Winnipeg with delivery to downtown Winnipeg. Instead of getting the car share service and driving the store in the evening you spend 15 minutes clicking through a site and the groceries come to your door later that day. How much is that worth to people and who will be the first to try that model in Winnipeg?

[esquire]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there already are many grocers in and around downtown. People who live downtown are taken care of even if they don't have a full fledged Sobeys store on the main level of their building, as there a good many grocers within walking distance or a short bus ride. And also, many downtown dwellers drive. When I lived downtown I probably drove 2/3 of the time I went to get groceries... walking trips were mostly light pit stops at Family Foods on the way home from work where I'd pick up some milk, bread, etc.

Here are some places where you can buy groceries in or very close to downtown:

-Safeway on River
-Family Foods/IGA on Donald
-Giant Tiger (say what you will, but they have a decent selection of basics at good prices)
-Young's Foods (mostly ethnic, but a good selection of basics too)
-Safeway on Sargent
-Extra Foods on Goulet
-Safeway on Marion
-No Frills on Notre Dame
-Dino's on Notre Dame (mostly ethnic with a selection of basics)
-Tutti Frutti at The Forks (for meats and basics)
-Main Meats (for meats and basics)
-Sun Wah (mostly ethnic)

Someone truly committed to buying groceries in or very close to downtown can do that right now without too much difficulty. I realize that some of these places aren't of much use to older people with mobility problems in a place like Fred Douglas Place, but they're still accessible to the majority.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by CoryB

That said, using the "click and collect" model I am surprised someone hasn't started running that out of a suburban store in Winnipeg with delivery to downtown Winnipeg. Instead of getting the car share service and driving the store in the evening you spend 15 minutes clicking through a site and the groceries come to your door later that day. How much is that worth to people and who will be the first to try that model in Winnipeg?

This has popped into my head quite a few times as of late, thinking about how to make it easy to order without needing inventory.

However, Family Foods on Donald does do delivery already:

http://www.winnipeggrocery.com/

[drew]

Here are some places where you can buy groceries in or very close to downtown:

^
Food Fare Portage@Arlington

Food Fare Maryland@Westminster

Two other full service grocery stores within that same radius, on major bus routes.

[rypinion]

If I (Waterfront at Pacific) need groceries and don't feel like booking a co-op car, I'll just hop on an 18 to get to the Red River Co-op at Main and Inkster. It's a <10 minute bus ride each way, super easy.

(And it drives past Neechi Commons which is considerably closer, I should probably be going there)

[Cyro]

https://twitter.com/KirkorArchitect

Pleasantly surprised at the images of this proposal being released prior to the opening of the sales/presentation centre in the not to distant future. Hoping to here more from the developers in the next several weeks reg: the grocery store outlet, being so vigorously debated here. It should be interesting to see if an 25K sq/ft tenant has been secured for the location. Most would assume it would be decided and announced at the opening of the sales centre.

[CoryB]

On Twitter just now @MarinaStrauss (Global and Mail retailer reporter) posted that today Loblaws announced they will partner with Uber to delivery groceries from "click and collect" to specific Toronto areas.

I really feel if the SkyCity grocery is truly happening it will emphasis fresh products (meat, deli, bakery, produce, ready to eat foods, etc) where personal selection is going to matter more than a can of soup, a box of cereal, or ice cream. Selection on the "middle of the store" will be where a lot of compromises are made to fit the smaller front print with "click and collect" or "click and deliver" making up the bulk of the sales back ended by someplace with cheaper rent or bigger selection (ie the suburbs).

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Let's not lose sight of the fact that there already are many grocers in and around downtown. People who live downtown are taken care of even if they don't have a full fledged Sobeys store on the main level of their building, as there a good many grocers within walking distance or a short bus ride. And also, many downtown dwellers drive. When I lived downtown I probably drove 2/3 of the time I went to get groceries... walking trips were mostly light pit stops at Family Foods on the way home from work where I'd pick up some milk, bread, etc.

Here are some places where you can buy groceries in or very close to downtown:

-Safeway on River
-Family Foods/IGA on Donald
-Giant Tiger (say what you will, but they have a decent selection of basics at good prices)
-Young's Foods (mostly ethnic, but a good selection of basics too)
-Safeway on Sargent
-Extra Foods on Goulet
-Safeway on Marion
-No Frills on Notre Dame
-Dino's on Notre Dame (mostly ethnic with a selection of basics)
-Tutti Frutti at The Forks (for meats and basics)
-Main Meats (for meats and basics)
-Sun Wah (mostly ethnic)

Someone truly committed to buying groceries in or very close to downtown can do that right now without too much difficulty. I realize that some of these places aren't of much use to older people with mobility problems in a place like Fred Douglas Place, but they're still accessible to the majority.

This was exactly the point I made earlier and you've made ad nauseum around here. There already are options. Quite a few of them. But because most of them aren't the brands that white middle class people are used to patronizing, we pretend they don't exist.

This whole downtown grocery thing has turned into an urbanist meme. The discussion is almost harmful to the cause at this point because it's so easily trotted out as the most identifiable reason there's very little downtown development that people actually believe it now.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

This was exactly the point I made earlier and you've made ad nauseum around here. There already are options. Quite a few of them. But because most of them aren't the brands that white middle class people are used to patronizing, we pretend they don't exist.

This whole downtown grocery thing has turned into an urbanist meme. The discussion is almost harmful to the cause at this point because it's so easily trotted out as the most identifiable reason there's very little downtown development that people actually believe it now.

There is also the grocery at Neechi Commons on Main. Easy parking access and a good lunch spot to boot.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

There is also the grocery at Neechi Commons on Main. Easy parking access and a good lunch spot to boot.

Sure, but let's not kid ourselves about most people's desire to wander on over to Euclid and Main if they can help it. Even I'm sympathetic to that one.

That part of Main Street is still mostly a disaster.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

So what will work? That's the point. There are never any solutions, just complaining. If nothing will work, we should just shut the forum down, close up the City and move on. That's what I get out of all this. Developers are always on the teet, can't make it work otherwise. So what do we do?

What will work is what's already working. Everybody in Winnipeg is looking for the mega-solution to every problem because they're insecure about their little town. Most solutions in slow growing, isolated towns are organic and very incremental. That's the nature of the beast. It's why our city looks like the way it does. It's why high-rise construction needs to be subsidized - our market doesn't support mega-density ever for anything.

And over time places have already filled the niche as Esquire and Drew have noted by compiling a pretty comprehensive list. Why do we pretend like the grocery options we have now aren't good enough when they do the job they need to? Should every neighbourhood feel slighted that they can't support a SuperStore?

[pkirvan]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

So what will work? That's the point. There are never any solutions, just complaining. If nothing will work, we should just shut the forum down, close up the City and move on. That's what I get out of all this. Developers are always on the teet, can't make it work otherwise. So what do we do?

What will work is densification- if you have that the rest happens naturally. Achieving that requires a mix of ways to attract people downtown- subsidizing high rises is one approach, but there are others. Some of the basics would be to have a little pride in the area- downtown sidewalks pretty much never get cleared in the winter and are covered in treacherous rough ice most of the year. Beyond that, it's important to make sure that anyone building in the suburbs is paying every last cent of the costs of building new roads and extending utilities to those areas at the time of construction, as well as higher taxes in general to cover the costs of running mostly empty buses to those areas, clearing all the extra roads they require, etc. Of course this doesn't happen as people in the suburbs have plenty of votes, so we get what we get. Sigh. At any rate, calling it like it is isn't the same thing as pessimism or rooting for people to fail.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by pkirvan

What will work is densification- if you have that the rest happens naturally. Achieving that requires a mix of ways to attract people downtown- subsidizing high rises is one approach, but there are others. Some of the basics would be to have a little pride in the area- downtown sidewalks pretty much never get cleared in the winter and are covered in treacherous rough ice most of the year. Beyond that, it's important to make sure that anyone building in the suburbs is paying every last cent of the costs of building new roads and extending utilities to those areas at the time of construction, as well as higher taxes in general to cover the costs of running mostly empty buses to those areas, clearing all the extra roads they require, etc. Of course this doesn't happen as people in the suburbs have plenty of votes, so we get what we get. Sigh. At any rate, calling it like it is isn't the same thing as pessimism or rooting for people to fail.

I would love to see Transit introduce a system like just about every city in Europe — pay for how far you go. Lots, like London have zones where you pay a certain amount per zone you cross/enter. Or, like in Amsterdam where you use a SmartCard when you enter and exit the bus, and pay for time like in a cab.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I would love to see Transit introduce a system like just about every city in Europe — pay for how far you go. Lots, like London have zones where you pay a certain amount per zone you cross/enter. Or, like in Amsterdam where you use a SmartCard when you enter and exit the bus, and pay for time like in a cab.

Vancouver has zones. I don't think we'd start to see zones until Transit became more regional - I think if you introduced zones now you'd see most people crossing zones now anyway (we're not that big).

Although, that'd be great news for me - I do lots of short trips.

[biguc]

I loathe Vancouver's zones. It makes figuring out how much to pay nearly impossible if you're transferring to a suburban bus--say, to go to Tswawessen. As a result, people just don't pay. If Translink did away with their zone system and charged a flat rate to access and use the entire system, a lot more people would actually pay.

Transit lines run consistently, regardless of how far any individual is going. They don't work like cabs and it doesn't make sense to meter them like cabs.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Sobey's was supposed to do a similar style store in Calgary's Marda Loop not long after opening the Jasper Ave store, and backed out. I had heard from a source involved with Sobey's that the main reason for the backing out was that Sobey's wasn't happy with margins on the Edmonton one. It was probably busy, but for whatever reason the margins just weren't there. There could also be other reasons of course.

Correct.

Miscalculated the demo, atrocious management, busy, fail.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Correct.

Miscalculated the demo, atrocious management, busy, fail.

This is not the reason. It's already been explained why these stores fail and it has nothing to do with bad management or miscalculating the demo.

The clientele is too expensive to run a grocery store. Sobey's would need to turn themselves into a convenience store that sold milk at twice the price their suburban stores sell it at and that isn't their model.

It's really weird that you insist on ignoring the actual reasons for something in favour of something you've constructed in your head.