SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[esquire]

For what it's worth, a grocery store at SkyCity is basically irrelevant to the residents of downtown's densest residential area: Bro-Ass. When I lived in that area near the Legislature, I generally walked over to Safeway in OV or Family Foods on Donald, or took a short drive to Extra Foods for larger shops. I did not like The Bay's grocery store (found it pricy with poor selection) and as a consequence I rarely shopped there.

People closer to Main could walk to Family Foods too, or drive/bus to Extra Foods/Safeway on Goulet.

So it's not as though downtown residents aren't already served by grocery stores. I think it will take more than one tower (assuming SkyCity ever gets built) to persuade a supermarket to move in. 104 St. in Edmonton is lined with new highrise condos and as we know, Sobeys couldn't make it work there.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

Nice looks promising

Re: SKY CITY CENTRE
This latest rendering is a vast improvement from the first.
I quite like this.
We desperately need this added to our skyline which looks stale.
I hope it goes through!
http://media.winnipegfreepress.com/images/13-048_-_JULY_16__2014_-_RENDERINGS_18956556.JPG

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

That store closed last year because it consistently lost money. Rest assured the rest of the market is paying attention.

Due to exceptionally poor operation, management and inept understanding of its demographic.

It was always busy.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Why are you getting defensive about this? There's demand for everything in this world. Groceries are only one thing. The idea that there is enough demand is what's at issue. Do you think there's a group of North American grocery executives who meet once annually over a bottle of scotch on the 30th floor of 201 Portage and conspire another year to keep a grocer out of downtown Winnipeg? This is complete nonsense.

They look at the market - that means density of residents at a certain income level within a prescribed area - and make their decision from there. And they've consistently decided it's either not a profitable idea or it's not profitable enough to justify the risk. You think Loblaw's and Sobey's aren't paying any attention to the transience of the downtown population? Or the rest of the retail landscape that has almost completely collapsed?

Urbanists act like Sobey's and Loblaw's don't already operate stores in Winnipeg. Like, if we could just get in front of a Sobey's or Loblaw's executive surely we could convince them of the prosperity awaiting them in Downtown Winnipeg. The people who have run Safeway, Sobey's, Loblaw's, Co-Op understand this market better than anybody blindly cheer-leading a downtown grocery and they're not convinced.

Stop trying to assert a reality that doesn't exist.

Ummm... defensive. Yes of course. It was me being defensive. Right.

Obviously, I was saying that I thought there was an evil cabal of grocery store magnates conspiring to shut downtown Winnipeg out of the retail big leagues. How dare this group of weathly scotch drinkers deny us our right to a fancy new grocery store at Portage and Main! Thank you for clarifying what I was clearly at pains to express.

Right.

So anyway, obviously the grocery store at the Bay did not appeal as much to the Bro-Ass dwellers, but the North of Portage (No-Po?) residents connected to the skywalk and downtown office workers found it quite convenient. The parking at the Bay might have be part of the formula for the apparent success. I knew more than a few office workers who parked at the Bay and would frequently pick up groceries on the way to their cars. Living and working downtown, I shopped there regularly, and yes, it was not always the finest produce, but that's the case at many of the smaller inner city grocers like Foodfare, Family Foods, etc. The grocery business at the Bay was by all accounts good. I don't know if a grocer at SkyCity would work, but if there was a link to the skywalk, connected parking structure, and nearby office workers, I think it could tap a pretty significant market downtown.

[pkirvan]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

if there was a link to the skywalk, connected parking structure, and nearby office workers, I think it could tap a pretty significant market downtown.

What on earth do the office workers have to do with it? Lets see, either they drive home, stopping for groceries at any one of the plentiful grocery stores in the suburbs and loading their car parked right next to the door straight from their shopping cart, or they sky-walk to the Fortress tower, haul all their stuff back to their parkade by hand, then hope their ice cream doesn't melt on the way home. I wonder which one they'll pick? People are lazy.

Grocery stores need to be supported by people who live near them, period.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by pkirvan

What on earth do the office workers have to do with it? Lets see, either they drive home, stopping for groceries at any one of the plentiful grocery stores in the suburbs and loading their car parked right next to the door straight from their shopping cart, or they sky-walk to the Fortress tower, haul all their stuff back to their parkade by hand, then hope their ice cream doesn't melt on the way home. I wonder which one they'll pick? People are lazy.

Grocery stores need to be supported by people who live near them, period.

Yes office workers parking at the Bay. Somehow they managed to make it home before their ice cream melted. Maybe they didn't like ice cream? Maybe they only bought frozen food in winter? I don't know, I guess they somehow managed. Listen, I'm not making this up. You and Simplicity want to be dogged contrarians, I get that. But I'm just stating a different set of facts that you both seem blind to: People will shop downtown if its relatively convenient to their lifestyles. Being connected to the walkway and in proximity to where people park every weekday were a part of the formula for success. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps that formula could be replicated elsewhere downtown. Perhaps not for a gigantic Superstore, but a smaller format store, similar in size to a FoodFare/ Family Foods. But that's okay, you can tell me again how I'm wrong, I get where you're coming from.

[buzzg]

Apparently Downtown Edmonton has 4 grocery stores in the works.

http://www.retail-insider.com/retail-insider/2015/4/downtown-grocery-stores

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Apparently Downtown Edmonton has 4 grocery stores in the works.

http://www.retail-insider.com/retail-insider/2015/4/downtown-grocery-stores

Out of that list of 4, proposals 1 and 3 are not in what anyone would call downtown locations. Proposal 2 is discussing the reopening of the closed Sobeys. Proposal 4 that calls for something by the new rink is the only new downtown grocery store that is mentioned.

I note that the article only mentions SkyCity's proposed location for Winnipeg... although if they're mentioning stuff out by 121 and 122 Sts. in Edmonton, they might as well have mentioned the new/reopened No Frills on Notre Dame here since that's probably closer to the core of the CBD than two out of the four Edmonton locations.

[pkirvan]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

You and Simplicity want to be dogged contrarians, I get that.

This from the guy who says he isn't being defensive? I only ever responded to your actual arguments, yet you feel the need to resort to name calling?

As I've said many times, I live in and love downtown Winnipeg. However, improving it requires one to look at it realistically and learn from past failures, not simply pretend that every idea will work. In my 4 years here I've lost two grocery stores- the Bay one and the ExtraFoods near Health Sciences (now turned into a No Frills after three years of vacancy). So that suggests that opening a grocery store downtown isn't a slam dunk. As for the Bay, if that was a super-awesome business model I'm sure someone would have rented that spot from HBC by now- HBC certainly needs people to fill space in that building.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

But I'm just stating a different set of facts that you both seem blind to: People will shop downtown if its relatively convenient to their lifestyles. Being connected to the walkway and in proximity to where people park every weekday were a part of the formula for success.

Aside from more name calling, what evidence do you have to call the Bay 'formula for success' a 'fact'? That it seemed to have people in it sometimes? That's a far cry from assuring profitability.

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

I'm simply suggesting that perhaps that formula could be replicated elsewhere downtown. Perhaps not for a gigantic Superstore, but a smaller format store, similar in size to a FoodFare/ Family Foods. But that's okay, you can tell me again how I'm wrong, I get where you're coming from.

Nope, definitely not defensive.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Yes office workers parking at the Bay. Somehow they managed to make it home before their ice cream melted. Maybe they didn't like ice cream? Maybe they only bought frozen food in winter? I don't know, I guess they somehow managed. Listen, I'm not making this up. You and Simplicity want to be dogged contrarians, I get that. But I'm just stating a different set of facts that you both seem blind to: People will shop downtown if its relatively convenient to their lifestyles. Being connected to the walkway and in proximity to where people park every weekday were a part of the formula for success. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps that formula could be replicated elsewhere downtown. Perhaps not for a gigantic Superstore, but a smaller format store, similar in size to a FoodFare/ Family Foods. But that's okay, you can tell me again how I'm wrong, I get where you're coming from.

You aren't stating facts of any kind. You're anecdotally referencing your own habits and extrapolating them over the few downtown residents who haven't already found perfectly good means for stocking their cupboards.

And if you're suggesting a smaller format store, they already exist which people have gone blue in the face trying to tell you. Stop being ignorant.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Due to exceptionally poor operation, management and inept understanding of its demographic.

It was always busy.

If this were the case they would have thrown out the management team and not the entire enterprise.

Can we stop having conversations where somebody pipes in with their 'eye-test' to refute the realities of the situation? It's of no relevance whether the store was 'always busy'. Obviously it wasn't busy enough. Obviously it wasn't profitable enough. Obviously it was everything that a grocery store can't be or there would still be a grocery store there. This isn't a conspiracy.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

If this were the case they would have thrown out the management team and not the entire enterprise.

Can we stop having conversations where somebody pipes in with their 'eye-test' to refute the realities of the situation? It's of no relevance whether the store was 'always busy'. Obviously it wasn't busy enough. Obviously it wasn't profitable enough. Obviously it was everything that a grocery store can't be or there would still be a grocery store there. This isn't a conspiracy.

They did, multiple times.

With the merger it was low hanging fruit, but it was their inefficient model, not the demand.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

They did, multiple times.

With the merger it was low hanging fruit, but it was their inefficient model, not the demand.

So what does this tell you?

It was low-hanging fruit because it was an easy decision - not because anybody was interested in spiting their bottom line and some downtown residents.

And since there are a hundred grocers in this country looking for quality locations, it wouldn't still be sitting vacant. This idea that it was an inefficient model is just somebody excusing something that doesn't fit their narrative. Why is it that we're supposed to assume that the people who get paid well to know the grocery business better than anybody - all of them from many different companies - just can't get a handle on the downtown grocery market. They're exceptional at every other one, but the real experts are a few staunch urbanists? Let's get real here.

Regardless of what anybody tells you, the trends in the vast majority of North America - unfortunate or otherwise - are towards the suburbs on all relative bases. This goes especially for the most profitable grocery consumers - those with households consisting of multiple members who buy lots at once. A store can be busy, but selling a tin of cat food and carton of eggs to somebody who makes 7 stops a week is a very expensive way of conducting business. And that's what you get in the high-density market which is why the business tries to survive on pre-made meals in these markets. And since your downtown demographic is always the same as residents have families and leave, you're left with churn - not improvement. Add in increased shrinkage and a limit on what you can charge people at the store before they get in their car and drive to SuperStore, eventually you have a decision to make.

So far those decisions have been easy despite Sobey's taking a risk everybody already knew the outcome of.

[esquire]

^ For what it's worth Edmonton has a 15-year old Save-On-Foods supermarket located on the edge of downtown at Jasper and 109... basically the Edmonton equivalent of where the Portage Ave. Junior's Restaurant is. It's right in the sweet spot in terms of convenience to both downtown dwellers and Oliver residents... the downtown Sobeys was in tough from the very beginning against a larger competitor with suburban-style free parking to boot. So it's not as though downtown groceries are dead in Edmonton.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

The Bridgewater Centre is issue is definitely a real one. That said, the area is already well served. I understand that Sobey's is probably the store that dies along with the merger (though CoryB is the expert here, for sure...), but that still leaves Safeway, Superstore, and Costco, along with a Bulk Barn all within a five minute drive. And I don't doubt the Sobey's lease will end up with another grocer.

In terms of Bridgewater Centre, I have long said south Winnipeg is due for a mid-sized Asian grocery like Lucky's and that might be the site that works. As with everything retail in Winnipeg parking, lease cost and build/renovation cost will ultimately rule.

In terms of Kenaston the lack of access to the Sobey's site for north bound traffic stream and the close proximity of Safeway to residential would make Safeway the preferred location. The Sobey's also appears to be running a more dated floor plan that would require a reno. That said it is really anyone's guess but keeping both stores open doesn't seem to make sense long term. I am actually a little surprised the distance between stores wasn't taken into account when the Competition Board made the list of required store disposals.

Originally Posted by esquire

For what it's worth, a grocery store at SkyCity is basically irrelevant to the residents of downtown's densest residential area: Bro-Ass.

I disagree. With the shift to "click and collect" for groceries which is getting relatively quick uptake in the US a potential store at SkyCity could have a huge reach, much bigger than what is "walkable". What if Loblaws say opened one of their banners their and instead of "click and collect" it was "click and delivery" for a small fee. There are already similar services elsewhere in Canada. Also using an on-line ordering model could keep the on-shelf inventory at SkyCity fairly light while having a supply truck running between a suburban store and SkyCity once a day to provide more depth of selection to customers.

Originally Posted by pkirvan

What on earth do the office workers have to do with it?

Office workers are going to be where a smart downtown grocery store generates their revenue. It gets repeatedly talked about on here how groceries in general have a very slim margin and generate small revenue. The side of the story people are missing though is that ready to eat foods/meals are good revenue generators. There is a reason that ready to eat sushi is all over the place downtown and this store would be no different. Similar to the prepared salads. Add in things like sandwiches, fruit and veggie platters for office meetings/parties.

Those same office workers aren't going to be buying ice cream there to take home but what about that message from home late afternoon that you need milk for your kids or that supper you forgot to take out of the freezer? People have fridges in their office and will pick up things missing from their dinners, if not their whole dinners.

The end of the day it isn't about the total dollar value per transaction but the revenue the store generates. If they can pull in a higher revenue per customer and their location pulls in lots of customers not selling that ice cream and making $0.50 will be offset by selling them sushi or a salad at lunch and making $1.50.

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by CoryB

In terms of Bridgewater Centre, I have long said south Winnipeg is due for a mid-sized Asian grocery like Lucky's and that might be the site that works. As with everything retail in Winnipeg parking, lease cost and build/renovation cost will ultimately rule.

In terms of Kenaston the lack of access to the Sobey's site for north bound traffic stream and the close proximity of Safeway to residential would make Safeway the preferred location. The Sobey's also appears to be running a more dated floor plan that would require a reno. That said it is really anyone's guess but keeping both stores open doesn't seem to make sense long term. I am actually a little surprised the distance between stores wasn't taken into account when the Competition Board made the list of required store disposals.



I disagree. With the shift to "click and collect" for groceries which is getting relatively quick uptake in the US a potential store at SkyCity could have a huge reach, much bigger than what is "walkable". What if Loblaws say opened one of their banners their and instead of "click and collect" it was "click and delivery" for a small fee. There are already similar services elsewhere in Canada. Also using an on-line ordering model could keep the on-shelf inventory at SkyCity fairly light while having a supply truck running between a suburban store and SkyCity once a day to provide more depth of selection to customers.



Office workers are going to be where a smart downtown grocery store generates their revenue. It gets repeatedly talked about on here how groceries in general have a very slim margin and generate small revenue. The side of the story people are missing though is that ready to eat foods/meals are good revenue generators. There is a reason that ready to eat sushi is all over the place downtown and this store would be no different. Similar to the prepared salads. Add in things like sandwiches, fruit and veggie platters for office meetings/parties.

Those same office workers aren't going to be buying ice cream there to take home but what about that message from home late afternoon that you need milk for your kids or that supper you forgot to take out of the freezer? People have fridges in their office and will pick up things missing from their dinners, if not their whole dinners.

The end of the day it isn't about the total dollar value per transaction but the revenue the store generates. If they can pull in a higher revenue per customer and their location pulls in lots of customers not selling that ice cream and making $0.50 will be offset by selling them sushi or a salad at lunch and making $1.50.

The Jasper/104 location specifically modeled themselves in a way that carried a lot of pre-made meal options. It didn't work. The total revenue per trip is absolutely the most important thing in low-margin retailing. The total revenue the store generates disregards profitability entirely. When you're on a 3-4% margin, you need economies of scale. Every time somebody comes through the store looking to conduct a low tally transaction at grocery store prices and not convenience store prices, you're killing yourself. It's why 7-11 and Shoppers sell fewer items at higher prices - they need the margin uptick to account for the volume downgrade.

You simply aren't going to convince somebody to pick up milk at Sobey's downtown at twice the price they can grab it at the Sobey's on Kenaston on their way home. Consumers are extremely price sensitive. And Sobey's doesn't want those customers who only want milk at grocery prices if that's all they're buying because that transaction is too costly for them.

It's a pretty basic equation. You can only dedicate a certain square footage of your grocery store to pre-made meals before you start driving the value of those meals down whether through spoilage or simple supply-side variables. And since that entire section may only account for less than 10% of your store, you need to actually move low-margin groceries at a great enough clip that you're justifying the risk and trouble of being in the business. And this has been where the rubber meets the road; you can't do it because all your grocery clients are exactly the type you don't want.

[Biff]

SkyCity #Winnipeg is coming alive! @KirkorArchitect presenting details of exterior cladding for this iconic tower.

From SkyCityCentre WPG@SkyCityWinnipeg Twitter Page

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

They did, multiple times.

With the merger it was low hanging fruit, but it was their inefficient model, not the demand.

Sobey's was supposed to do a similar style store in Calgary's Marda Loop not long after opening the Jasper Ave store, and backed out. I had heard from a source involved with Sobey's that the main reason for the backing out was that Sobey's wasn't happy with margins on the Edmonton one. It was probably busy, but for whatever reason the margins just weren't there. There could also be other reasons of course.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ For what it's worth Edmonton has a 15-year old Save-On-Foods supermarket located on the edge of downtown at Jasper and 109... basically the Edmonton equivalent of where the Portage Ave. Junior's Restaurant is. It's right in the sweet spot in terms of convenience to both downtown dwellers and Oliver residents... the downtown Sobeys was in tough from the very beginning against a larger competitor with suburban-style free parking to boot. So it's not as though downtown groceries are dead in Edmonton.

Exactly. There is still a market for downtown Grocers. There are three in Calgary, with two more involved in proposals (Loblaws and Urban Fare) With grocers going into any downtown locations (Cgy, Edm, Win) it's always going to be a bit of trial and error, hit and miss deal......just like any other retail.

Anyhow, I hope this project gets built.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Yes office workers parking at the Bay. Somehow they managed to make it home before their ice cream melted. Maybe they didn't like ice cream? Maybe they only bought frozen food in winter? I don't know, I guess they somehow managed. Listen, I'm not making this up. You and Simplicity want to be dogged contrarians, I get that. But I'm just stating a different set of facts that you both seem blind to: People will shop downtown if its relatively convenient to their lifestyles. Being connected to the walkway and in proximity to where people park every weekday were a part of the formula for success. I'm simply suggesting that perhaps that formula could be replicated elsewhere downtown. Perhaps not for a gigantic Superstore, but a smaller format store, similar in size to a FoodFare/ Family Foods. But that's okay, you can tell me again how I'm wrong, I get where you're coming from.

Hey, simplicity and his homeboys want to tell you why things will never work, not how they could. And they'll be happy until something does work. And then they'll you why they don't like it.