Why does everyone love Montreal?

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Razor

While Ottawa's shopping certainly isn't bad, you can't argue that a city 3 times it's population wouldn't have better shopping.

Yes I can, and I do. Population doesn't guarantee anything in the retail world; money does. It's why Vancouver is second only to Toronto in this country for retail, yet it's half the size of Montreal.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yes I can, and I do. Population doesn't guarantee anything in the retail world; money does. It's why Vancouver is second only to Toronto in this country for retail, yet it's half the size of Montreal.

Ahh okay..I see your point now..I was looking at quantity vs quality.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yes I can, and I do. Population doesn't guarantee anything in the retail world; money does.

Yeah, that's why Ottawa lost its Holt Renfrew...

Shopping in Ottawa has really improved in recent years and the city has now chains you find everywhere. But Montreal (and its suburbs) shopping is vastly superior, no doubt.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Razor

Ahh okay..I see your point now..I was looking at quantity vs quality.

He's talking more about big name retailers (especially American) that are in Ottawa but not in Montreal.

For example, Ottawa now has a Nordstrom and Montreal does not. Likely for the simple fact that Nordstrom did not want to translate stuff like its checkout IT interfaces into French, etc.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about having the exact same shit as any mid-sized American city. Madison, Wisconsin has a Nordstrom too I suppose. Woo. Hoo.

I am not a big fan of shopping but it seems to me it's more interesting and of greater value to the shopper to have unique independent shops than the same stuff that's replicated all over the continent and the world by big conglomerates.

But maybe that's just me being weird. I know it goes against SSP Canada thinking and especially among the SSP Ottawa crowd, for whom having or not having stores like Hollister seems to be a make or break...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Don't get me wrong. I like Toronto more than Montreal, I could list a dozen reasons why I think it's the better city, and overall it's more interesting due to a contagious sense of possibility arising from the fact that no one really knows exactly where this is all going or how it will end up when it's finally "done," but that's not exactly the sort of item you can list on a tourist brochure.

The charms of Montreal are immediate and easy to see. They're not elusive at all.

Good points.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Back on topic, another reason why Montreal receives so much affection is that it's the only city in Canada with any real gravitas. Its lengthy history, the centuries-long inter-ethnic tensions, the 19th century architectural grandeur and the triplexes that go on for miles are weighty, and provide a launch pad for many of the things that make cities interesting and distinctive.

To get a bit city vs city (with only two urban "contenders" in this country, it's inevitable), Jesus of Montreal could only have been made in Montreal. Toronto's trademark is more quirky fluff like I've Heard the Mermaids Singing, Take This Waltz or The F Word along with some off-kilter dystopian stuff by David Cronenberg, but it has had so little of an inward focus that the exceptions to the rule are always startling (Thirty-Two Short Films About Glenn Gould, for example).

.

I think this speaks less to something uniquely Torontonian and more to how "fringe" the local TV and movie scene is in the city. Whereas the overall scene tends to be much less "fringe" in most of the world's big cities. Toronto productions may be simply more tilted towards the "fringe" because it's a genre that doesn't need or expect a bigger "outlet".

Other big cities that are the cultural and entertainment capital of their nation also produce these types of edgier works, in addition to stuff in the schlock, vanilla, mainstream and every other genre under the sun.

It's worth mentioning that the person who wrote this counts Atom Egoyan as one of his favourite film-makers. I especially enjoy how he shows us Toronto as Toronto.

I actually wish we'd see more of that on screen.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by vanatox

Yeah, that's why Ottawa lost its Holt Renfrew...

Shopping in Ottawa has really improved in recent years and the city has now chains you find everywhere. But Montreal (and its suburbs) shopping is vastly superior, no doubt.

Yes, doubt. In the end it depends on how "better" is defined. Vastly? Nope. People just assume this because Montreal. Refer to my earlier post about branding and self promotion.

Holt in Ottawa closed for reasons I can almost guarantee most people are unaware (hint: affluence isn't it). And in its place Nordstrom opened a magnificent flagship which scooped up all former Holt clients. It also served as the anchor for a huge host of other premium retailers. More to come as well...

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

He's talking more about big name retailers (especially American) that are in Ottawa but not in Montreal.

Actually, no I'm not, but thanks for speaking on my behalf.

I'm taking about availability and elusiveness of product/brands. There was a time not too long ago when one would have to leave town, usually for Montreal, in order to buy popular or desirable items. That time has gone.

What you're referring to is the availability of independent "boutiques" that sell a pair of jeans for 5x what Winners sells the same product for. If that's the definition of better, then I agree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yes, doubt. In the end it depends on how "better" is defined. Vastly? Nope. People just assume this because Montreal. Refer to my earlier post about branding and self promotion.

Holt in Ottawa closed for reasons I can almost guarantee most people are unaware (hint: affluence isn't it). And in its place Nordstrom opened a magnificent flagship which scooped up all former Holt clients. It also served as the anchor for a huge host of other premium retailers. More to come as well...

Holt Renfrew closed in Ottawa as part of an overall scale-back on the entire chain. They chose to focus on the stores that had the most profitability (realized or potential).

Ottawa is an affluent city (the most affluent in the country most of the time) but this does not mean its citizens are the biggest spenders.

Calgary, which was also up there with Ottawa or even higher for many years, is more of big spender city, for example.

Ottawa tends to be a bit conservative in tastes and spending habits, in spite of its affluence.

This is part of what did in Les Ailes de la Mode at Bayshore. Although there were other issues with that boondoggle as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Actually, no I'm not, but thanks for speaking on my behalf.

I'm taking about availability and elusiveness of product/brands. There was a time not too long ago when one would have to leave town, usually for Montreal, in order to buy popular or desirable items. That time has gone.

What you're referring to is the availability of independent "boutiques" that sell a pair of jeans for 5x what Winners sells the same product for. If that's the definition of better, then I agree.

I am not an avid shopper but I am pretty much surrounded by them. The idea that Montreal is more expensive and has fewer bargains than Ottawa would spark guffaws in my entourage.

Anyway, I am not talking about designer jeans at Winners nor am I just talking about clothing.

I am talking about overall selection and variety.

Cities like Montreal and Toronto have by virtue of their size and status as ports of entry way more independent shops that do small-scale imports where you can find stuff you'll likely never see in a city like Ottawa.

They are also national bases for planning, selection, design and production of various retail products. This also has an impact on what is available to local shoppers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Yes I can, and I do. Population doesn't guarantee anything in the retail world; money does. It's why Vancouver is second only to Toronto in this country for retail, yet it's half the size of Montreal.

You're obviously referring to sky-high sales per square foot at Vancouver malls. These figures are very low for Montreal area malls. The only one of the list of top malls in Canada is Carrefour Laval and it's usually near the bottom of the list.

There are various factors at play given that a typical family in Canada's three biggest cities brings in about the same amount of money annually: about 70k.

As I have mentioned on here before the mindset in Quebec is not "brand-obsessive" like it often is in the rest of the country. This admittedly leads to compromises in quality (buying a cheap flashy top for 10 bucks at L'Aubainerie on Saturday afternoon for that evening's outing, knowing it won't last) but what can I say, it is what it is. Quebecers are also as I like to say, more experiential than material.

In a city like Vancouver you have a large influx of people (either new residents or visitors) who tend to status-oriented and brand-obsessed. Vancouver is their beach-head for accessing various trappings of North America, and this usually includes high end shopping.

So sure, Vancouver is a better place than Montreal for an Oscar de la Renta store.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Holt Renfrew closed in Ottawa as part of an overall scale-back on the entire chain. They chose to focus on the stores that had the most profitability (realized or potential).

They closed because they had a lousy location that drew neither locals nor tourists in sufficient quantities. Combine that with increasing rents at 240 Sparks due to imminent LRT opening, and the fact that they tried too late and failed to get into the Rideau expansion, and that's the real story. What you said is the company line they towed to try and save face.

This is part of what did in Les Ailes de la Mode at Bayshore. Although there were other issues with that boondoggle as well.

Les Ailes at Bayshore was successful. Its closure was due to struggling corporate deciding to consolidate all operations into Montreal in an effort not to die. That plan failed, and they ultimately shuttered there also.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not an avid shopper but I am pretty much surrounded by them. The idea that Montreal is more expensive and has fewer bargains than Ottawa would spark guffaws in my entourage.

Cool. But your entourage is very Quebec oriented and likely has massive affinities for Montreal. Naturally, they'd have that opinion. Note the use of the word opinion.

Cities like Montreal and Toronto have by virtue of their size and status as ports of entry way more independent shops that do small-scale imports where you can find stuff you'll likely never see in a city like Ottawa.

Oodles of independent shops in the Market and areas like Wellington West and Westboro that specialise in exactly this. By your own admission you're not into this scene, so unsurprisingly you're unaware of them.

It's also inappropriate to lump Montreal in with Toronto in your commentary. The latter is really in a league of its own, and should be mentioned in the same sentences as LA, New York, Miami, Chicago.

In a city like Vancouver you have a large influx of people (either new residents or visitors) who tend to status-oriented and brand-obsessed. Vancouver is their beach-head for accessing various trappings of North America, and this usually includes high end shopping.

To suggest that Montrealers aren't status oriented is hilarious. Anyway, I'll let the Vancouverites answer this if their choose, but I go by what I read in retail news, which i follow closely. Van is second only to Toronto on a retailer's desirability list for opening a new/another store. It's not just high end (athough there's a massive market for that in Van mainly due to wealthy Asians), but at all ranges.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

He's talking more about big name retailers (especially American) that are in Ottawa but not in Montreal.

For example, Ottawa now has a Nordstrom and Montreal does not. Likely for the simple fact that Nordstrom did not want to translate stuff like its checkout IT interfaces into French, etc.

I honestly don't know what the big deal is about having the exact same shit as any mid-sized American city. Madison, Wisconsin has a Nordstrom too I suppose. Woo. Hoo.

I am not a big fan of shopping but it seems to me it's more interesting and of greater value to the shopper to have unique independent shops than the same stuff that's replicated all over the continent and the world by big conglomerates.

But maybe that's just me being weird. I know it goes against SSP Canada thinking and especially among the SSP Ottawa crowd, for whom having or not having stores like Hollister seems to be a make or break...

This is exactly right, imho. When I speak of cities having "good shopping", I am specifically excluding national chains, which are available almost everywhere.

[LaGrandeOurse]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

What you're referring to is the availability of independent "boutiques" that sell a pair of jeans for 5x what Winners sells the same product for. If that's the definition of better, then I agree.

One reason some indepedent boutiques like atelier b in the mile end or belle & rebelle sur st-hubert can justify the bigger price tag, although I doubt 5X, is that their clothing is socially and ecologically responsible and design by local designers if that is of value. Even H&M wich brands itself as socially responsable buys clothing from company who employs children and offer poor wages.
http://ici.tou.tv/les-grands-reportages/S2016E54?lectureauto=1

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

To suggest that Montrealers aren't status oriented is hilarious. .

They may indeed be status oriented, but if they are it's with slightly different metrics.

As I said a million times: brand power is not as big a deal in Quebec. It's not necessarily a positive BTW.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Cool. But your entourage is very Quebec oriented and likely has massive affinities for Montreal. Naturally, they'd have that opinion. Note the use of the word opinion.

.

Well, Ontario is the province where I've lived the longest and more of my family members live there (from the eastern outskirts of Ottawa to the western fringes of the GTA) than live in Quebec.

I honestly know zero people in Ottawa, whether they're anglo, franco, Chinese, Somali, Lebanese, etc. who'd say that Ottawa has better shopping than Montreal.

Well, except maybe your Aunt Verna who'd be the type to say the shopping in Manhattan is unsatisfying because there is no Hudson's Bay store there, and you know how Verna likes The Bay...

Other than that... it's just the apex of homerism. (And maybe a bit of bitterness towards the city at the other of the 417.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Oodles of independent shops in the Market and areas like Wellington West and Westboro that specialise in exactly this. By your own admission you're not into this scene, so unsurprisingly you're unaware of them.

Indeed they are there in Ottawa. The problem is that I can't find a single good reason why a city the size of Montreal wouldn't easily have three to four times more.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It's also inappropriate to lump Montreal in with Toronto in your commentary. The latter is really in a league of its own, and should be mentioned in the same sentences as LA, New York, Miami, Chicago.
.

Assuming we're still mostly talking about the clothing industry in general... do you trust the CBC?

These days, Quebec's fashion sector is less than half that size but still accounts for more than 45 per cent of all employment in the Canadian industry. The Montreal region, which is home to 70 per cent of the province's apparel companies, is North America's third-largest clothing manufacturing city after New York and Los Angeles.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/m...try-tries-to-reboot-with-mmode-1.3094598

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Cool. But your entourage is very Quebec oriented and likely has massive affinities for Montreal. Naturally, they'd have that opinion. Note the use of the word opinion.

Oodles of independent shops in the Market and areas like Wellington West and Westboro that specialise in exactly this. By your own admission you're not into this scene, so unsurprisingly you're unaware of them.

It's also inappropriate to lump Montreal in with Toronto in your commentary. The latter is really in a league of its own, and should be mentioned in the same sentences as LA, New York, Miami, Chicago.


To suggest that Montrealers aren't status oriented is hilarious. Anyway, I'll let the Vancouverites answer this if their choose, but I go by what I read in retail news, which i follow closely. Van is second only to Toronto on a retailer's desirability list for opening a new/another store. It's not just high end (athough there's a massive market for that in Van mainly due to wealthy Asians), but at all ranges.

Perhaps the entourage you hang with in your "million trips" to Montreal tend to be the same brand-obsessed shopaholic scenesters as yourself who attach so much importance and feelings of self worth to wearing the right labels and being seen carrying the appropriate shopping bag?
(As to why one would go to a city they find "meh" a million times is somewhat puzzling. Unable to obtain a passport? Retail News not available in Ottawa stores?)

Reminds of the guy who went to as many douchebag clubs as he could find here then proclaimed "Montreal is full of douchebags!".

As to being just another American city - not a very lofty goal imo, but an easily attainable one.