Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

The MLS is very much regarded as a second rate league by the European soccer community. But since it's #1 in North America for some reason MLS fans think they are superior to CFL fans who indeed cheer for a second rate product when compared to the NFL. Does that really make the 2 leagues so different? Just because the big boys in soccer are on a different continent you're a better second rate product than other second rate products? I'll never understand the posturing between CFL and MLS fans. The MLS losses money almost league wide so to brag about the revenue potential is useless. I hope the CFL expands to at least 1-2 more markets in Canada (halifax,QC) 12-14 teams in later on, Round 2 of the southern expansion would really take away that bush league image the CFL has for people who don't support it.

league attendance average
MLS-21,109
CFL-24,737

The thing is, MLS isn't even #1 in North America. It's behind Liga MX in Mexico by any measure, and according to this is behind the Costa Rican league too. We really put on the blinders when we think of North America as just two countries.

Acajack is correct that Canadians fetishize American sports and that's the only reason we even have teams in MLS in the first place. We could theoretically have our own league that would be on par with MLS. But despite MLS being a pretty low bar to set, Canadians would ignore a domestic league and dismiss it as second rate because it's not American.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I agree with most of what you're saying, but definitely not the last sentence. The crux of it is that the 18-45 demographic in Toronto is a lost cause. The 18-45 crowd are never coming back in any significant numbers. They need to hold on to the die hards they have now and invest heavily in the under 18 demographic. Make the game day experience everything football game day is supposed to be and get them there in big numbers from Game #1 at BMO Field.

Tailgating must happen, it must be authentic, and it can be done. In the end it will be fan driven and it must start with the 18 and under set.... so it's going to be a 20-25 year build out. They're wasting valuable resources if they try to lure people who've already made up their mind about Canadian football and the CFL.

What you say is largely true but if I judge by what has happened in Ottawa, Montreal and Hamilton there is a segment of the 18-45 crowd that can be brought back. Not a huge percentage of course, but enough of them to fill some seats.

If you go to a CFL game in those cities today there are quite a few people who at one point wrote off the CFL completely and only swore by the NFL.

They may still like the NFL more but still attend CFL games for a fun evening out.

I actually know a lot of people like this personally.

Being a fan of the CFL and the NFL is not a mutually exclusive thing.

Probably 90-95% of the people in the stands at a CFL game follow the NFL as well to some degree.

[Acajack]

It is also worth mentioning that the CFL in Montreal and Quebec in general became extremely stigmatized in the 1980s. It was seen as second-rate, bush league and plus it had the word ''Canadian'' in its name which to many people at the time was the kiss of death.

It was considered about as sexy as Rita MacNeil in phentex slippers and a sweatshirt with wolf motifs.

It was arguably worse than the place where the CFL is in the 416 today. At least for some in the 416 there is a teeny bit of lingering guilt that the CFL is something people maybe should pay more attention to because it's ''Canadian''. In Montreal even that element was absent.

[osmo]

Every MLS fan knows the league is second tier, all watch EPL and other top leagues in tandem. MLS markets itself as the best quality soccer experience locally. Sure you can match Man City in the morning here but TFC is the closest you can get to painting your face being part of a real supporters group. MLS is smart in that is has a partnership with the top leagues.

Top level players play in the MLS
MLS teams routinely play friendlies with top clubs
MLS books top clubs for touring matches around N.A. for promotion.

It is in bed with its supposed competition and both end having a beneficial relationship.

Another thing "soccer" is a odd thing to measure. Supposedly soccer games in TV only draw flies but when combined it is the 3rd most watched sport in Canada. In Ontario there is only a small group of TFC fans that would all be GTA focused. The Raptors have a similar thing as their popularity dips outside of southern Ontario.

The Argos news isn't surprising and backs up what I see working in the market here. There are no young Argos fans in Toronto. Period. It isn't on the radar and isn't cool. Argos are viewed as old fashioned to the youth here. Once again no JJ Watt or Cam Newton types for them to gravitate towards.

You can strike up a soccer conversation with almost any group of Toronto youth. Anytime at work on a Saturday somebody has a game streaming on their phone.

Nobody is talking Argos here. Argos are a 905 team and nothing is wrong with that at all, I just wish the league and team would accept it and leverage it.

There are many other layers also. The Bills treats S. Ontario season ticket holders VERY well. Typically these Canadians have much more money then Western New Yorkers and many times getting onto the filed or even being upgraded to a club or even a suite for a game isn't abnormal.

For the youth Michigan schools come recruit in S. Ontario heavy and treat the kids here well with Nike camps and trips. NCAA rules don't apply to schools here so they can get away with a lot more stuff they could never do with HS kids in the States.

All outlined above just fractures the Toronto market more. I agree that all the Argos need is 25,000 fans but it's a hill to climb when you don't even have 100 to start with here in the 416.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

Every MLS fan knows the league is second tier, all watch EPL and other top leagues in tandem. MLS markets itself as the best quality soccer experience locally. Sure you can match Man City in the morning here but TFC is the closest you can get to painting your face being part of a real supporters group. MLS is smart in that is has a partnership with the top leagues.

Top level players play in the MLS
MLS teams routinely play friendlies with top clubs
MLS books top clubs for touring matches around N.A. for promotion.

It is in bed with its supposed competition and both end having a beneficial relationship.

Another thing "soccer" is a odd thing to measure. Supposedly soccer games in TV only draw flies but when combined it is the 3rd most watched sport in Canada. In Ontario there is only a small group of TFC fans that would all be GTA focused. The Raptors have a similar thing as their popularity dips outside of southern Ontario.

The Argos news isn't surprising and backs up what I see working in the market here. There are no young Argos fans in Toronto. Period. It isn't on the radar and isn't cool. Argos are viewed as old fashioned to the youth here. Once again no JJ Watt or Cam Newton types for them to gravitate towards.

You can strike up a soccer conversation with almost any group of Toronto youth. Anytime at work on a Saturday somebody has a game streaming on their phone.

Nobody is talking Argos here. Argos are a 905 team and nothing is wrong with that at all, I just wish the league and team would accept it and leverage it.

There are many other layers also. The Bills treats S. Ontario season ticket holders VERY well. Typically these Canadians have much more money then Western New Yorkers and many times getting onto the filed or even being upgraded to a club or even a suite for a game isn't abnormal.

For the youth Michigan schools come recruit in S. Ontario heavy and treat the kids here well with Nike camps and trips. NCAA rules don't apply to schools here so they can get away with a lot more stuff they could never do with HS kids in the States.

All outlined above just fractures the Toronto market more. I agree that all the Argos need is 25,000 fans but it's a hill to climb when you don't even have 100 to start with here in the 416.

There are some truths in this post but regarding that last statement, I think the 416-905 demarcation is not as cut and dried as some people are making it out to be. (I realize this is an urban affairs forum of course so it's important to many people to make that distinction.)

I don't really find that something magical occurs when you cross Steeles Ave.

On the other hand, even if it were true and the Argos really had zero fans in the 416, the suburban market of Toronto would still be tied with Montreal for the biggest market in the CFL.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The thing is, MLS isn't even #1 in North America. It's behind Liga MX in Mexico by any measure, and according to this is behind the Costa Rican league too. We really put on the blinders when we think of North America as just two countries.

Acajack is correct that Canadians fetishize American sports and that's the only reason we even have teams in MLS in the first place. We could theoretically have our own league that would be on par with MLS. But despite MLS being a pretty low bar to set, Canadians would ignore a domestic league and dismiss it as second rate because it's not American.

Some years ago Ottawa has a Triple A baseball team and for a certain crowd in the city it was actually ''in'' to go see them (as opposed to the Rough Riders) because the AAA baseball team played in a league with American teams.

You also had the same bizarre fetish phenomenon with the Ottawa Bootleggers American football team that played in the semi-pro Empire Football League in New York state.

Watertown and Utica FTW.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

The Argos news isn't surprising and backs up what I see working in the market here. There are no young Argos fans in Toronto. Period. It isn't on the radar and isn't cool. Argos are viewed as old fashioned to the youth here. Once again no JJ Watt or Cam Newton types for them to gravitate towards.

Okay, so maybe Ricky Ray is up there with Peyton Manning in the quarterbacks-who-look-like-your-dad in the eyes of teenagers, but if you're looking for intense farmboy defensive ends there is a dude in Toronto who comes to mind

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some years ago Ottawa has a Triple A baseball team and for a certain crowd in the city it was actually ''in'' to go see them (as opposed to the Rough Riders) because the AAA baseball team played in a league with American teams.

In fairness, there was a bit of a Blue Jays inspired early 90s baseball frenzy across Canada... even in Winnipeg in the 90s when the original Jets left and the Bombers were teetering on the edge of insolvency, the local independent league baseball team was still packing them in and doing boffo box office.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

In fairness, there was a bit of a Blue Jays inspired early 90s baseball frenzy across Canada... even in Winnipeg in the 90s when the original Jets left and the Bombers were teetering on the edge of insolvency, the local independent league baseball team was still packing them in and doing boffo box office.

That was certainly part of it but it doesn't tell the whole story. I clearly remember having conversations with people about this.

And I was at Ottawa Bootleggers games that had 12,000 people in the stands for amateurish football, largely because it was four downs and the opponents were from the U.S.

Of course, it didn't last but the initial fetish effect was unmistakable.

[Acajack]

Montreal also had a team in the Empire Football League at one time.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And I was at Ottawa Bootleggers games that had 12,000 people in the stands for amateurish football, largely because it was four downs and the opponents were from the U.S.

Of course, it didn't last but the initial fetish effect was unmistakable.

Holy moly, I recall that there were some semi-pro US teams playing in southern Ontario but I never knew that they drew so well.

[osmo]

The 905 isn't Kansas and I agree that it isn't some magical different area. Places like Vaughn and Saugga are massive and oddly many Canadians don't know about these places unless they get mail from them. If the CFL had it's act together the GTA suburbs would be ground zero for expansion. In AFL Melbourne and Sydney suburbs all have teams, some all even playing in the stadiums oddly. Its quirky but it works.

Back to the 905, there are some differences, though it is more towards the demographics, that are indeed different and that can't be disputed. The CFL has fans who are either older, middle class, working class, and maybe more blue collar. These groups are more abundant in the 905 and Etobicoke versus the rest of Toronto.

Etobicoke actually has a good sized base of Argos fans in the south area there and is a rare pocket in the city where the Argos get some movement.

The CFL attracts these groups and they are not present in large numbers in Toronto. Your elitist bourgeoisie families in North Toronto don't care about the Argos, neither does the Kurdish family living in a apartment in Scarborough and these types of groups are much more common in Toronto then the 905.

End of the day what is the 905? It is made of mostly folks who in a prior generation called the 416 home and then moved further out due to costs or whatever reasons and raised a family there. For those people, when they were young in Toronto, the Argos were a big deal and they have remained fans ever since. The difference being they live in the 905 now versus the 416 but these are the people who were kids or teens when the Argos were popular in the city 25 years ago.

Only in Canada do we have such odd relationships with our suburbs. In America nobody has issues with the Bills, Pats, Cowboys, Redskins, etc all playing in the suburbs. Redskins have some of the worst game day traffic and it can take fans 3-hours to get to the far off stadium in Landover, MD and that still does not stop 85,000 from filling it up.

Argos in Vaughn would be popular, the community would rally behind them IMO.

[osmo]

The CFL has stars they just don't know how to market them. Chad Owens should be the poster boy for the league. Also the CFL has a QB crisis it needs to fix as QBs are the most marketable and for a league of only 9 teams you need at least 5 quality arms that can be marketed as stars for the league.

Originally Posted by esquire

In fairness, there was a bit of a Blue Jays inspired early 90s baseball frenzy across Canada... even in Winnipeg in the 90s when the original Jets left and the Bombers were teetering on the edge of insolvency, the local independent league baseball team was still packing them in and doing boffo box office.

Lets give the Blue Jays credit as they had a VERY aggressive national marketing and branding campaign in the late 80s. They literally had plans to spam the country with Blue Jays gear so the logo would become a fixture. It worked. It is the reason why the Jays get such good traction even in places like the prairies where
our baseball history has been hit or miss.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Holy moly, I recall that there were some semi-pro US teams playing in southern Ontario but I never knew that they drew so well.

It wasn't like that for every game but they drew 5k in Ottawa on a pretty consistent basis.

Which was quite surprising to the Americans, who found it amusing that Canucks would make such a big fuss over the little old EFL.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

The 905 isn't Kansas and I agree that it isn't some magical different area. Places like Vaughn and Saugga are massive and oddly many Canadians don't know about these places unless they get mail from them. If the CFL had it's act together the GTA suburbs would be ground zero for expansion. In AFL Melbourne and Sydney suburbs all have teams, some all even playing in the stadiums oddly. Its quirky but it works.

Back to the 905, there are some differences, though it is more towards the demographics, that are indeed different and that can't be disputed. The CFL has fans who are either older, middle class, working class, and maybe more blue collar. These groups are more abundant in the 905 and Etobicoke versus the rest of Toronto.

Etobicoke actually has a good sized base of Argos fans in the south area there and is a rare pocket in the city where the Argos get some movement.

The CFL attracts these groups and they are not present in large numbers in Toronto. Your elitist bourgeoisie families in North Toronto don't care about the Argos, neither does the Kurdish family living in a apartment in Scarborough and these types of groups are much more common in Toronto then the 905.

End of the day what is the 905? It is made of mostly folks who in a prior generation called the 416 home and then moved further out due to costs or whatever reasons and raised a family there. For those people, when they were young in Toronto, the Argos were a big deal and they have remained fans ever since. The difference being they live in the 905 now versus the 416 but these are the people who were kids or teens when the Argos were popular in the city 25 years ago.

Only in Canada do we have such odd relationships with our suburbs. In America nobody has issues with the Bills, Pats, Cowboys, Redskins, etc all playing in the suburbs. Redskins have some of the worst game day traffic and it can take fans 3-hours to get to the far off stadium in Landover, MD and that still does not stop 85,000 from filling it up.

Argos in Vaughn would be popular, the community would rally behind them IMO.

Agreed across the board.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Acajack is correct that Canadians fetishize American sports and that's the only reason we even have teams in MLS in the first place. We could theoretically have our own league that would be on par with MLS. But despite MLS being a pretty low bar to set, Canadians would ignore a domestic league and dismiss it as second rate because it's not American.

A Canadian league wouldn't be anywhere near in quality to the MLS. The MLS does more to train and produce Canadian football talent than any Canada-wide league currently could simply based on sponsorship and funding and exposure to the American market.

Unless you're implying that non-MLS clubs in Canada are pumping out National Team players.

National Team Players and their Youth clubs, current age in brackets:

Simon Thomas (25) - Whitecaps Residency
Adam Straith (25) - Whitecaps Residency/Victoria United
Karl Ouimette (23) - Impact Academy/Trois-Riviere Attak
Manjrekar James (22) - North York Azzuri/Sigma FC
Sam Adekugbe (20) - Whitecaps Residency/Calgary Foothills
Russell Teibert (23) - Whitecaps Residency
Jordan Hamilton (19) - TFC Academy
Manuel Aparicio (20) - TFC Academy
Kianz Froese (19) - Whitecaps Residency
Cyle Larin (20) - Sigma FC

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

Lets give the Blue Jays credit as they had a VERY aggressive national marketing and branding campaign in the late 80s. They literally had plans to spam the country with Blue Jays gear so the logo would become a fixture. It worked. It is the reason why the Jays get such good traction even in places like the prairies where
our baseball history has been hit or miss.

Minor quibble: baseball has a very strong history on the prairies, partly as a spectator sport with a long history of minor pro teams, but more as a participant sport... it was arguably THE sport for people to play for many many years. It was hockey in the winter and baseball in the summer.

I don't think baseball is quite as popular anymore but the Jays were definitely not some alien force out here... the game has long been widely known and loved here.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by osmo

... the CFL has a QB crisis it needs to fix as QBs are the most marketable and for a league of only 9 teams you need at least 5 quality arms that can be marketed as stars for the league

Umm, what?

Burris, Mitchell, Reilly, Harris, Collaros, Jackson...Durant, Ray and Lulay when they're healthy. Not to mention young up-and-comers such as Franklin, Smith and Cato.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by GernB

Umm, what?

Burris, Mitchell, Reilly, Ray, Harris, Collaros, Jackson...Durant when he's healthy.

Burris is 40 years old...

It isn't a good thing when a 40 year old is your league MVP....

Any skilled 23 year old can out perform a 40 year old at QB.

These old guys still get work in a 9 team league because they cant dig up any new arms. All the smaller read option types that used to be tossed from the NFL and became CFL stars are staying down south now.

There is also a deficit in the CIS which is not developing QBs like it used to. I believe IIRC a Canadian CIS QB has not made a NFL roster in over 10 years now...

Russell Wilson IMO is the prototype CFL QB and would be perfect for our game. If this was 10 years ago people would be calling him the second coming of Doug Flutie. 10 years ago Wilson would not get on a NFL roster and would be up here.

Look at Payton Manning in Denver with a springy kid out performing him of the simple fact he can just do things a smidge quicker.

The CFL is still stuck with gargoyles from when I was a kid. I see Wally Bauno's goofy mug and it reminds me of the crap days at Taylor Field in the cold with 9,000 fans with the Riders getting tossed around by the Stamps. CFL is slowly getting new blood, dudes like Jason Maas and other players going strait into coaching is good for league long term.

Get those old school guys out.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by osmo

Burris is 40 years old...

It isn't a good thing when a 40 year old is your league MVP....

Any skilled 23 year old can out perform a 40 year old at QB.

These old guys still get work in a 9 team league because they cant dig up any new arms. All the smaller read option types that used to be tossed from the NFL and became CFL stars are staying down south now.

There is also a deficit in the CIS which is not developing QBs like it used to. I believe IIRC a Canadian CIS QB has not made a NFL roster in over 10 years now...

Russell Wilson IMO is the prototype CFL QB and would be perfect for our game. If this was 10 years ago people would be calling him the second coming of Doug Flutie. 10 years ago Wilson would not get on a NFL roster and would be up here.

Look at Payton Manning in Denver with a springy kid out performing him of the simple fact he can just do things a smidge quicker.

The CFL is still stuck with gargoyles from when I was a kid. I see Wally Bauno's goofy mug and it reminds me of the crap days at Taylor Field in the cold with 9,000 fans with the Riders getting tossed around by the Stamps. CFL is slowly getting new blood, dudes like Jason Maas and other players going strait into coaching is good for league long term.

Get those old school guys out.

You said five QBs, I name seven or eight...now you shift ground and say your beef is that Burris is too old...

Reilly, Mitchell, Collaros, Harris and Jackson are all under 30, so where's the problem there?

The CIS has never placed a QB on an NFL roster. Though it has been well over a decade since there's been a CIS grad on a CFL roster at QB, it's not accurate to say they're not producing quality QBs...Andrew Buckley of UC was a late cut from the Stamps last year and will likely make the team at least on the practice roster in 2016, perhaps as 3rd string depending on what happens with Drew Tate. Michael O'Connor of UBC will almost certainly make the CFL or NFL. Will Finch from Western will likely get a good look from the CFL as well.

No argument Buono is getting long in the tooth and should retire...but he's really the only "old-school guy" left as a head coach.

I think you're picking gnatshit out of pepper here.