Calgary Public Transit II

[floobie]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I for one was a bit surprised that these stations can't function as end of lines. I'm sure in the past I've made it to Sunnyside and shuttled from there; perhaps someone can explain? Is it due to the much higher frequency of trains these days?

I was wondering this as well. If I could've just taken the train to Sunnyside, I could've EASILY walked the rest of the distance. Was there damage around Sunnyside as well?

[Full Mountain]

From the West LRT Thread:
Regarding the NC LRT Tunnel vs Bridge over the Bow River

With a tunnel under the Bow river, would not your first station on the north side of the river (between 7 ave and 10 Ave) be 50+ feet deep causing issues with access from street level? Yes, elevators work given the relatively small numbers of users likely in a normal use sitituation, but given this weeks issues where a station out side of DT is required to be a terminus 2 elevators would cause massive line ups of people.

Given that entering the hill at the level of the north end of the center street bridge would be about ideal for avoiding utilities, access, etc. it seems to me that a bridge is really the only way to do this,

On the not likely to work, but would save a ton of money list is to use the lower deck of the Center street bridge, or to cantilever off the sides (1 track each side)

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You're the one who keeps repeating "first world problems" as if that means anything. Yes, we live in the first world and have things pretty good. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Just because we're in the first world doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for improvement.

The C-Train is awesome when it works - so let's make it better when it doesn't.

The use of Sunnyside would have been far better than lions park, included in this plan should have been the use of a dedicated lane on 10st into and out of DT, sure it would have pissed off a few drivers, but it would have solved significant delays in the shuttles

I do think that while the annoucements were lacking, there is significant need for people to take responsiblity and inform themselves, it's not as if this wasn't all over the news sites, tv broadcasts, etc. ignoring the 'fad' sites you mention.

As well, I think that having DT open monday morning at all was a feat in and of itself, given that the wind equivalent of a cat 1 hurricane hit town

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

From the West LRT Thread:
Regarding the NC LRT Tunnel vs Bridge over the Bow River

With a tunnel under the Bow river, would not your first station on the north side of the river (between 7 ave and 10 Ave) be 50+ feet deep causing issues with access from street level? Yes, elevators work given the relatively small numbers of users likely in a normal use sitituation, but given this weeks issues where a station out side of DT is required to be a terminus 2 elevators would cause massive line ups of people.

Why not escalators? I hate elevators in underground stations, but escalators would be fine.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Why not escalators? I hate elevators in underground stations, but escalators would be fine.

For that depth you would need significant lateral room, for 50 feet your talking a lateral of min 90 feet depending on angle, and the station would more likely be at a 100+ foot depth from surface, giving a 150+ foot lateral. The biggest issue is that you have to build the tube to put them in and given the lack of surface space, they will want to keep the surface disruption to an absolute miniumum, and given the consistancy of that hill (basically a large pile of uncompacted sediment) (see emergency ops center for what can go wrong) you can't just dig vertically down and backfill around the resulting access tubes

*Calculations based on a 30 degree slope for the escalators a number that I suspect is significantly high, though I have absolutely no knowledge of these things

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

From the West LRT Thread:
Regarding the NC LRT Tunnel vs Bridge over the Bow River

With a tunnel under the Bow river, would not your first station on the north side of the river (between 7 ave and 10 Ave) be 50+ feet deep causing issues with access from street level? Yes, elevators work given the relatively small numbers of users likely in a normal use sitituation, but given this weeks issues where a station out side of DT is required to be a terminus 2 elevators would cause massive line ups of people.

Given that entering the hill at the level of the north end of the center street bridge would be about ideal for avoiding utilities, access, etc. it seems to me that a bridge is really the only way to do this,

On the not likely to work, but would save a ton of money list is to use the lower deck of the Center street bridge, or to cantilever off the sides (1 track each side)

If it was a tunnel, the first stop would probably be 16th avenue. Otherwise escalators would be used. Elevators are for universal access, but not for the majority of passengers.

With a bridge, the station would only be about 10m below grade.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

For that depth you would need significant lateral room, for 50 feet your talking a lateral of min 90 feet depending on angle, and the station would more likely be at a 100+ foot depth from surface, giving a 150+ foot lateral. The biggest issue is that you have to build the tube to put them in and given the lack of surface space, they will want to keep the surface disruption to an absolute miniumum, and given the consistancy of that hill (basically a large pile of uncompacted sediment) (see emergency ops center for what can go wrong) you can't just dig vertically down and backfill around the resulting access tubes

*Calculations based on a 30 degree slope for the escalators a number that I suspect is significantly high, though I have absolutely no knowledge of these things

150 foot lateral space is only 3 standard city lots. For an infrastructure this important, I think that the city would be OK with buying the lots needed to build the correct infrastructure for the job, building the station, and then selling whatever was left over back to developers. Even if it was more than that, I think it would be doable, no?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by floobie

I was wondering this as well. If I could've just taken the train to Sunnyside, I could've EASILY walked the rest of the distance. Was there damage around Sunnyside as well?

More of a power issue. Keep in mind that CFD had cut LRT power in the core for cranes on 7th Avenue. The way the power zones are arranged may have meant that Sunnyside was without overhead power.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

More of a power issue. Keep in mind that CFD had cut LRT power in the core for cranes on 7th Avenue. The way the power zones are arranged may have meant that Sunnyside was without overhead power.

Good point, was the work on the west end around the former 8th street station? If so I believe that is were the split is (observations only)

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by fusili

If it was a tunnel, the first stop would probably be 16th avenue. Otherwise escalators would be used. Elevators are for universal access, but not for the majority of passengers.

Ah that makes sense if the first stop is at 16th, though it does place it a significant distance from DT creating a significant catchment area that would still need bus service on the center street corridor, given that a large portion of these people walk currently this may not be a large issue for commuting, but leaving a gap like that in a system seems like a bad idea. That said a gap of that size is not out of the ordinary for the system, but I think it would be better if there was one between 16th and the river, which means using a bridge

Originally Posted by fusili

With a bridge, the station would only be about 10m below grade.

This seems to me like the best option to serve the near DT communities

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

This seems to me like the best option to serve the near DT communities

Yup, but we will see what any future engineering study comes back with. Not having a stop there would be unfortunate, but not a deal break. Not having the 16th avenue stop would be a deal breaker in my mind.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I for one was a bit surprised that these stations can't function as end of lines. I'm sure in the past I've made it to Sunnyside and shuttled from there; perhaps someone can explain? Is it due to the much higher frequency of trains these days?

In this case, I think the weekend's construction work included work around Sunnyside, so SAIT became the terminus, and then Lions Park became the stop for the Shuttles because SAIT, apparently, has nowhere to put Shuttles. And the windstorm happened in the middle of this closure, so the exact same closure was extended. Trains also go to Victoria Park,but again, nowhere to park the Shuttles, so they go to Erlton. Bridgeland simply has horrible road access to the station from downtown.

When you get down to it, the level of difficulty in building a station that close to the core probably eliminated allowances to make them accessible to shuttles.

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I hope everyone with good and bad things to say about how the issue was handled will write to Calgary Transit and let them know. Complaining is one thing, but getting those comments into the hands of the people who can actually affect some change is the only way things will get better.

[email protected]

I'll be using that. I don't have much to say but I'll say it anyways.

Originally Posted by fusili

Yup, but we will see what any future engineering study comes back with. Not having a stop there would be unfortunate, but not a deal break. Not having the 16th avenue stop would be a deal breaker in my mind.

I wouldn't mind seeing a study, or even an explanation, of how we accomplish a bridge from a flat downtown core where high rise buildings extend to the edge of one of the last natural-ish parks, just to compare it to the explanation of why it is hard to tunnel under that hill.

And, I assume, if a stop at Centre st and 8 Av N were to ever become the cut-off of a downtown closure, that buses would travel all the way to 16th, in much the same way as they do to Erlton.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

From the West LRT Thread:
Regarding the NC LRT Tunnel vs Bridge over the Bow River

With a tunnel under the Bow river, would not your first station on the north side of the river (between 7 ave and 10 Ave) be 50+ feet deep causing issues with access from street level? Yes, elevators work given the relatively small numbers of users likely in a normal use sitituation, but given this weeks issues where a station out side of DT is required to be a terminus 2 elevators would cause massive line ups of people.

Given that entering the hill at the level of the north end of the center street bridge would be about ideal for avoiding utilities, access, etc. it seems to me that a bridge is really the only way to do this,

On the not likely to work, but would save a ton of money list is to use the lower deck of the Center street bridge, or to cantilever off the sides (1 track each side)

The Moscow Metro has a station, Park Pobedy, which is 276' deep. Cost might be prohibitive but I can't see any design issues that would preclude the inclusion of a deep station in the area of 8 Ave N.

[ByeByeBaby]

I've been to Washington Park on the Portland MAX; the deepest station in North America, 260 feet. It has four elevators. (It's also a really nice station.) It's a relatively low-volume station, most comparable to our Zoo station. The elevators take 25 seconds; adding 15 for loading/unloading and assuming 15 people per elevator, that's 1350 people per hour. That would be plenty for a south-of-16th station; Bridgeland, Sunnyside, Lion's Park and Erlton handle 1300, 5700, 3900 and 1700 a day respectively.

A couple of the Red Line stations in DC are pretty deep as well; DuPont Circle is around 115 feet down and Woodley Park is around 140 feet. They use banks of escalators, and can handle serious loads. DuPont especially is a busy station; significantly busier than anything we have.

If there are emergencies, a south-of-16th station may not be the best place to stage shuttles from anyways.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I've been to Washington Park on the Portland MAX; the deepest station in North America, 260 feet. It has four elevators. (It's also a really nice station.) It's a relatively low-volume station, most comparable to our Zoo station. The elevators take 25 seconds; adding 15 for loading/unloading and assuming 15 people per elevator, that's 1350 people per hour. That would be plenty for a south-of-16th station; Bridgeland, Sunnyside, Lion's Park and Erlton handle 1300, 5700, 3900 and 1700 a day respectively.

A couple of the Red Line stations in DC are pretty deep as well; DuPont Circle is around 115 feet down and Woodley Park is around 140 feet. They use banks of escalators, and can handle serious loads. DuPont especially is a busy station; significantly busier than anything we have.

If there are emergencies, a south-of-16th station may not be the best place to stage shuttles from anyways.

I'm having trouble thinking of an emergency that would shut down only the downtown portion of the, theoretical, subway without downtown itself being shut down. I suppose there could still be an electrical failure but it could easily hit anywhere on the line as opposed to only the portion north of the river. In any case, it ought to be immune to weather problems like those we just faced.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I've been to Washington Park on the Portland MAX; the deepest station in North America, 260 feet. It has four elevators. (It's also a really nice station.) It's a relatively low-volume station, most comparable to our Zoo station. The elevators take 25 seconds; adding 15 for loading/unloading and assuming 15 people per elevator, that's 1350 people per hour. That would be plenty for a south-of-16th station; Bridgeland, Sunnyside, Lion's Park and Erlton handle 1300, 5700, 3900 and 1700 a day respectively.

A couple of the Red Line stations in DC are pretty deep as well; DuPont Circle is around 115 feet down and Woodley Park is around 140 feet. They use banks of escalators, and can handle serious loads. DuPont especially is a busy station; significantly busier than anything we have.

There are certainly ways to achieve it, I wonder if the cost and complexity of the soil conditions would scare the city off from it though.

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

If there are emergencies, a south-of-16th station may not be the best place to stage shuttles from anyways.

True, but you run into the distance issue using a 16th ave station similar to lions park, though it has the advantages of being a more of a direct route and having HOV lanes.

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I'm having trouble thinking of an emergency that would shut down only the downtown portion of the, theoretical, subway without downtown itself being shut down. I suppose there could still be an electrical failure but it could easily hit anywhere on the line as opposed to only the portion north of the river. In any case, it ought to be immune to weather problems like those we just faced.

Good point, failures likely wouldn't be localized to downtown

[eggbert]

I don't think elevators are necessary to move people up and down to a station around 100ft like 8th Ave would be. I've been on the Montreal subway many times and a couple of those stations are close to that mark and use escalators without any issue.

Here's the deepest station in Montreal at 29.6m to the platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlevoix_(Montreal_Metro)

[fusili]

Originally Posted by eggbert

I don't think elevators are necessary to move people up and down to a station around 100ft like 8th Ave would be. I've been on the Montreal subway many times and a couple of those stations are close to that mark and use escalators without any issue.

Here's the deepest station in Montreal at 29.6m to the platform:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlevoix_(Montreal_Metro)

I know other stations that are quite deep. Nuevos Ministerios in Madrid and Krizikova in Prague both required several sets of escalators to get to the surface from the station platform.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You're the one who keeps repeating "first world problems" as if that means anything. Yes, we live in the first world and have things pretty good. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Just because we're in the first world doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for improvement.

The C-Train is awesome when it works - so let's make it better when it doesn't.

First world problems is a website that posts the lame little things we all complain about everyday.

http://first-world-problems.com/

But seriously, train delays just dont get me angry. Its a part of life.

[freeweed]

I have to admit, this one gave me a good chuckle:

“I’m not sure which percentage I am, because I was always really bad at math.”

Also, there's meta-irony about that website's very existence, but I suspect most readers miss it entirely.