[Moncton] Infinity | Harper & Main & Bateau | 104m | 30 Storeys | Proposed

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01

I think you need to look up what a real 15 minutes city is. It's control, not choice, especially punishing people for using a car inside the 15 minute radius from their home. Look at the UK. It's not all roses. It has to start somewhere, it's all about controlling the populace because of environmentalism and reducing pollution, rather than choice.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city:

What it is:

The 15-minute city (FMC[2] or 15mC[3]) is an urban planning concept in which most daily necessities and services, such as work, shopping, education, healthcare, and leisure can be easily reached by a 15-minute walk, bike ride, or public transit ride from any point in the city. This approach aims to reduce car dependency, promote healthy and sustainable living, and improve wellbeing and quality of life for city dwellers.

The COVID contribution:

The ongoing climate crisis and global COVID-19 pandemic have prompted a heightened focus on the 15-minute city concept. In July 2020, the C40 Cities Climate Leadership Group published a framework for cities to "build back better" using the 15-minute concept, referring specifically to plans implemented in Milan, Madrid, Edinburgh, and Seattle after COVID-19 outbreaks. Their report highlights the importance of inclusive community engagement through mechanisms like participatory budgeting and adjusting city plans and infrastructure to encourage dense, complete, overall communities.

What it is not:

In early 2023, far-right conspiracy theories began to flourish that described 15-minute cities as instruments of government repression, claiming that they were a pretext to introduce restrictions on travel by car. In fact, the '15-minute city' proposals do not involve any restrictions on travel by car – unrelated measures[b] introduced to reduce traffic in some cities have been somehow confused with '15-minute cities'.

There were ALWAYS historical reasons to want to have your home, work, shopping, food in close proximity. Urban sprawl of the 50s-90s made that difficult, without personal automobiles (considering public transit has always been "catching up") With the more recent pressures of global warming (pollution reduction) and work-from-home (some of the realization of that from the pandemic), there are just more reasons to plan things that way. It makes sense and always did.

If your post was indicating that you already knew the above, then I guess I missed the subtlety. It's possible that your worry stems from misappropriation of the term, as evidenced in recent BBC articles:

15 minute cities: How they got caught in conspiracy theories

What the article demonstrates is that the concept of 15-minute city has nothing to do with control, but a few (rare, globally) local governments have stretched the concept a bit without understanding it fully.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01

I think you need to look up what a real 15 minutes city is. It's control, not choice, especially punishing people for using a car inside the 15 minute radius from their home. Look at the UK. It's not all roses. It has to start somewhere, it's all about controlling the populace because of environmentalism and reducing pollution, rather than choice.

I'm very clear on what a real 15-minute city is. You've bought into the conspiracy theory that it is about control, when it absolutely isn't.

[MonctonRad]

Good post Nashe!!!

I grew up in downtown Charlottetown, and appreciated the luxury of having nearby corner stores to pick up necessities on short notice. I miss that in my current suburban north end neighbourhood.

[josh_cat_eyes]

NB is certainly not the UK. Even Halifax with its beautiful dense downtown is not. I don’t there there will ever been enough infrastructure in any Canadian city to implement a UK style “15 minute city” outside of Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton or Calgary. There just is not enough population to accommodate the needed infrastructure to justify creating a 15 minute city.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I grew up in downtown Charlottetown, and appreciated the luxury of having nearby corner stores to pick up necessities on short notice. I miss that in my current suburban north end neighbourhood.

Yeah, that would have been awesome. I live in very central (old north) Moncton (Walkability score 55) and I can technically get to a grocery store within 15 minutes... but it's a Shopper's Drug Mart which stretches that concept a lot.

That said, with recent health issues, it's awesome to walk to the hospital (including ER) in less than 2 minutes, lol.

I can also kinda get to restaurants, but they're largely the fast-food strip of Mountain road; so less variety than it seems. Vito's, I guess, would count (and I love it).

[new kid in town]

All this paranoia about government control lol. I sure wouldn't want to have to travel 20 minutes 1-way for a milk run.

[jonny golden]

Can somebody refresh my memory - is the overall building footprint leaving any space for a future second tower on the property?

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

Can somebody refresh my memory - is the overall building footprint leaving any space for a future second tower on the property?

If the site plan and renderings shown on the 1st post of this thread are still accurate, then no.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

If the site plan and renderings shown on the 1st post of this thread are still accurate, then no.

I might have been thinking about the vacant lot just to the east, which I believe Irving owns. Unfortunately they're not known for selling land!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I was reading the earlier comments in this thread, but can't find the exact ones to quote now... regarding this 30 storey tower sticking out by itself, I don't think it's exactly something to worry about. I can't see something like this going up and there not being some sort of push to full in the area in between with more buildings between 6-40 storeys.

If this development is proven successful, there's good reason to believe other developments of similar, or even slightly scope, could be successful too.

Before, the rest of that infill happens though, I don't think there's much to worry about a single 30 storey tower looking odd by itself.

The Lakhta Centre in St. Petersburg is a good example of how a single tower can actually look quite nice without other similarly tall towers nearby.







Though, I don't think Moncton will have this problem/situation, especially not if Mark Carney and the NB Liberals actually live up to their "big build, big bold" ideals and sloganeering when it comes to responding to the "housing crisis". I think Moncton has a golden opportunity to be the "Mini-Mississauga of the East", and by that, I mean there's a good opportunity to build a nice little "second downtown" of mostly residential high rises (between 10-40 storeys).

But instead of being a car-centric, urban hellscape (like Missisauga's residential high rise cluster is), Moncton's high rise residential cluster could be one that promotes walkability, active transportation, and entrepreneurial opportunity. Which would would make it a lot more like the mini Toronto of the East and a lot less like Missisauga.

I think it's kind of funny how some people wouldn't want Moncton to be known as the Toronto of the East lol, there's much, much worse cities to be compared to, unless we are talking about their hockey teams.

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think Moncton has a golden opportunity to be the "Mini-Mississauga of the East", and by that, I mean there's a good opportunity to build a nice little "second downtown" of mostly residential high rises (between 10-40 storeys).

Infinity *is* downtown, just at its eastern edge. It's a 5-7 minute walk to the centre of downtown. Fundy Quay to Kings Square in terms of distance. I think some people were being a bit over-the-top about their concerns about Infinity looking out of place.

The issue isn't the distance, it's simply that 300m of underdeveloped space separating Infinity from Marriott/Blue Cross. Won't look any more out of place than Three Sisters imo.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

Infinity *is* downtown, just at its eastern edge. It's a 5-7 minute walk to the centre of downtown. Fundy Quay to Kings Square in terms of distance. I think some people were being a bit over-the-top about their concerns about Infinity looking out of place.

The issue isn't the distance, it's simply that 300m of underdeveloped space separating Infinity from Marriott/Blue Cross. Won't look any more out of place than Three Sisters imo.

Mhm, were they ever.

I think this project will highlight the opportunities to fill in the skyline starting at this eastern edge where Infiniti is being built and work towards the centre of downtown Moncton, which would eventually shift the "centre" of downtown Moncton a little eastward.

In terms of Moncton's prospects for downtown high rise developments, I think Moncton is very fortunate that their heritage conservationists don't have nearly as much influence on city council and re-zoning decisions as they do in Saint John. It will be very interesting to see how the Moncton skyline develops over the next 10-20 years. I hope we continue to see more big ideas and big projects brought forward for high rise developments in Moncton.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

As to a question that was brought up before, does anyone have any speculation, or even better, informed insight regarding the cost that led to this decision for this project to be a single, 30 storey?

Compared to two 15 storeys, or three 10 storeys buildings built with similar quality and finishes... is it possible that a single 30 storey tower could actually be more cost effective than two or three separate high rises with the same amount of units?

Apologies if these questions have already been addressed in pages previous. I did try a few searches though lol.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by SevenSquared

Infinity *is* downtown, just at its eastern edge. It's a 5-7 minute walk to the centre of downtown. Fundy Quay to Kings Square in terms of distance. I think some people were being a bit over-the-top about their concerns about Infinity looking out of place.

The issue isn't the distance, it's simply that 300m of underdeveloped space separating Infinity from Marriott/Blue Cross. Won't look any more out of place than Three Sisters imo.

There is a large vacant lot directly beside the Infinity property which would be an obvious candidate for development. AFAIK it's owned by Irving, so how that would affect the development prospects, who knows. It could easily contain 2 good sized towers.

The other obvious property is the current (soon to be vacant) RCMP station. It too is a large lot, nicely positioned as a connection between the main downtown core and the Infinity site. I suspect that the city will issue a "request for proposals" for this property like it did for the Main & Vaughan Harvey land. I just hope they don't place a minimum of 6 floors as a condition. Make it at least 10, so we don't get another tomato building situation.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

There is a large vacant lot directly beside the Infinity property which would be an obvious candidate for development. AFAIK it's owned by Irving, so how that would affect the development prospects, who knows. It could easily contain 2 good sized towers.

I've always wondered how the politics of expropriation and/or eminent domain work so that the government can force the sale of certain properties to build thing like roads, hospitals, utility infrastructure, or museum parking lots, but when it's suggested that the same be done to vacant or under-utilized properties like the ones you've described above, to build housing in the middle of a housing crisis, many would be up in arms about such an action being severe over-reach, etc, etc.

Personally, I wouldn't see the big deal, especially since the property owners would be paid fair market value for the property, and not the BS assessed value according to the SNB assessment formula.

Speaking of which, talk about an issue that should get more attention regarding the ongoing process of propriety tax reform. At least the property directly beside the Infinity Tower site is zoned commercial and generates nearly $90,000 in property tax revenue per year. ... can't say the same thing for this other large, vacant lot nearby, which generates only $9,547 per year in property tax revenue. Though, it seems Saint John has it quite a bit worse than Moncton in regard to ultra low assessments on vacant and under-utilized land within the city's PDA. There's some truly shocking examples of under-assessments on vacant land within the Uptown core that have been pointed out multiple times in the Saint John threads.

I think it would be prudent for the province to give municipalities the authority to raise rates on vacant and under-utilized properties, especially properties located smack dab in the middle of the primary development area.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

There is a large vacant lot directly beside the Infinity property which would be an obvious candidate for development. AFAIK it's owned by Irving, so how that would affect the development prospects, who knows. It could easily contain 2 good sized towers..

The block immediately to the west of the ICON site is definitely owned by Irving. In fact, about a year ago, Irving bought the final lot on this block, giving them absolute ownership of the entire block. One has to wonder why it was suddenly so important for Irving to have this entire block consolidated under their control. Is the impending construction of the Infinity Tower suddenly making this property more interesting in terms of it's development potential???

I would certainly think so.

Unfortunately Irving has a habit of sitting on developable land for considerable time, so, I am not overly hopeful of anything happening in the short term, but, there is a reason why Irving has consolidated this block, and I imagine they want to piggyback on the potential success of the Infinity Tower. We may see a large development here sometime in the next 10-20 years.

[Taeolas]

I wonder if Irving might be considering a Division HQ in Moncton at some point, maybe for their logistics arm or maybe their paper and/or forestry divisions. It's hard to imagine any HQ outside of SJ, but the company does seem to be on the verge of splitting up among the next generation of the family, so there might be something there.

And setting up a signature HQ building in the heart of Moncton/Dieppe would be fitting, even if it isn't 30 stories (I'd be surprised if it was more than 10 stories; but I could be wrong)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

I wonder if Irving might be considering a Division HQ in Moncton at some point, maybe for their logistics arm or maybe their paper and/or forestry divisions. It's hard to imagine any HQ outside of SJ, but the company does seem to be on the verge of splitting up among the next generation of the family, so there might be something there.

And setting up a signature HQ building in the heart of Moncton/Dieppe would be fitting, even if it isn't 30 stories (I'd be surprised if it was more than 10 stories; but I could be wrong)

Irving already has a HQ building on the corner of Dieppe Blvd and Champlain. It's a low rise, but large building. It houses the head offices for Midland, Cavendish Farms, Master Packaging, Majesta/Royale and Irving Personal Care.

I suppose they might consider relocating, but, I think that unlikely.

[Taeolas]

I wasn't aware that was an HQ building; I had figured it was warehousing and/or factory, but I've only driven past it on the highway and not looked closer at it.

Moving the HQ to downtown does seem somewhat unlikely; but holding the land for the possibility of doing it doesn't seem entirely impossible. It does mean they'll likely leave the block fallow for years to come which would be disappointing.

Maritime Cities really need to be more on top of those empty lots in general, and start figuring out some "Use it or Lose (value on) it" policies to make it less economical to leave land undeveloped. (And/or skirt around rules by putting a gate and a gravel parking lot on it)

[jonny golden]

I wonder if Irving would consider getting into residential development? If they put their minds to it, they certainly could be a major player.

Aren't they creating a mini home park in Riverview - through Kent Homes? I know that's not high rise apartments, but it is the residential sector.

The worst case scenario for that property is if they sit on it and do nothing.