Portland Politics Thread

[downtownpdx]

Totally see your point and while I support the basic idea/services provided behind these taxes, as Philly put it we were booming at the time they were passed and in individual cases they seem pretty minuscule when you look at the ballot. I mean why not tax 1.25% on high incomes, it seems like such a tiny number. But then another and another and they add up, and you tack on a pandemic, social unrest, remote work and homelessness and in a quick span of time people are seeing high taxes and crappy services. Things have improved a lot since 2020 in terms of public safety (still not enough of course). But I’m hoping the local electorate and officials can see that we have to stop the “you’re lucky to be here now pay up” attitude towards business. I think the recent landslide defeat of the proposed $1600-for-every-Oregonian measure (80% said no) paid by corporations was a wake up call. Really hope our city council sees the value in retaining and recruiting business - if we decide we want to plug a $100 million budget gap then expanding the tax base would be a good move.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by downtownpdx

Totally see your point and while I support the basic idea/services provided behind these taxes, as Philly put it we were booming at the time they were passed and in individual cases they seem pretty minuscule when you look at the ballot. I mean why not tax 1.25% on high incomes, it seems like such a tiny number. But then another and another and they add up...

Exactly this.

I get so offended every year when I have to pay that freaking arts tax. It's not the money I mind. It's the use. It's the priorities, or lack thereof.

Little by little, all of these taxes add up. And now, there's talk of a 100 million dollar budget shortfall for the city?

Portland could face a more than $100 million shortfall in the 2025-2026 fiscal year.

City bureaus are being asked to prepare for cuts from 5% to 8%. This includes police, fire, and emergency communications, which were not asked to make cuts in recent years under former Mayor Ted Wheeler.

"We're to the point where a cut of that magnitude is only gonna be one thing and that's closing stations," Isaac McLennan, President of the Portland Firefighters Association, said to KATU. "By my rough estimate, we're looking at probably closing six stations if it's an 8% reduction."

..continues on KATU

[aquaticko]

What I admit I find confusing is how taxes are meted out, here. I don’t think anyone would notice a 35$ a month tax (or whatever the art tax is) if it was part of a general tax, but parsed out like it is, of course people are going to question it.

It still rankles me that people complain so consistently about taxes. It’s just always such a small part of overall income, and yet no matter how much money people make, people get so hung up about it. I work in healthcare, and the number of times I hear coworkers say “overtime’s just not worth it; you lose it all in taxes” is ridiculous and just so obviously wrong…as evidenced by the fact that we all work a lot of overtime in spite of all the whining.

It’s absolutely fair to complain about feeling like you’re not getting much from paying your taxes. However, the solution isn’t to create a situation where you’re not paying taxes—ask all the people who end up paying for private security services and education. We need to be demanding better and more efficient governance, not lower taxes. The costs of living in a civilized society (however defined) will bear themselves out, either way.

[colossalorder]

While I agree with your point that it matters what you get for you taxes, the idea that the overall tax burden doesn't matter is just intuitively a little silly. Unfortunately, I think this is the mindset of the preponderance of Portland voters and why its hard to feel optimistic about Portland's economic prospects. Its a competitive economic world. Great pizza alone is not going to save the city.

Also, the argument that taxes are insignificant is just not correct. If you are in the highest tax bracket (like the Smarsh founder), your total tax bill living in Portland is 51.77%. That's not small, that's the majority of what you make.

Portland is uncompetitive for businesses and the wealthy people who found/manage them. That's not a conservative talking point, Tina Kotek is saying the same thing. Even Jessica Vega Pederson, architect of the ill-constructed PFA tax, is calling for a delay of the 0.8% increase in 2026 that will bring PFA to 3.8%.

This article lays out the facts nicely. Portland is the absolute WORST in the country by a WIDE margin for C-corps, S-corps, partnerships, LLCs and the second worst by a narrow margin for wage income and sole proprietorships. Particularly, painful here as marginal tax brackets are so low. This isn't just affecting big corporations, its your beloved local coffee shop as well. We can believe in the facts and evidence and do something about it, or we can continue to lament the exodus of businesses from the city and the ensuing budget crisis.
https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/portland-taxes/

"It’s no secret that the Portland area has high taxes. The region is known for the world’s largest bookstore, its breweries, a vibrant art scene, and the old PDX airport carpet, but decidedly not for its commitment to tax competitiveness.

Portland residents face some of the highest taxes in the country. City, county, regional, and state taxes on individual and both net and gross business income combine to create a crushing tax wedge, yielding some of the highest marginal rates on wage income nationwide. And after factoring in the average net income effect of the Oregon Corporate Activity Tax (CAT), Portland easily has the nation’s highest marginal effective rates on both corporate and pass-through business income.

Because this tax burden is spread across so many taxes—the Supportive Housing Services Tax at the Metro level, for instance, combined with the Business Net Income Tax imposed by Multnomah County and the Business License Tax levied in Portland, all atop Oregon’s state individual income tax and gross receipts-based CAT—it can be difficult to appreciate the full burden. Unless you’re paying it.

Workers, business owners, and investors in Portland, Multnomah County, and the Metro region all experience these considerable burdens. Portland has the highest business taxes—on small and large businesses, and pass-throughs and corporations alike—and the second highest top marginal rate on wage income in the country.

...

Portland residents may want to “Keep Portland Weird,” but the city’s most unrepresentative feature need not be its tax burdens. At least for now, Portland residents face some of the country’s highest taxes on just about every class of income. In an era of dramatically increased mobility for individuals and businesses alike, that’s not a recipe for success."

[DMH]

Originally Posted by aquaticko

What I admit I find confusing is how taxes are meted out, here. I don’t think anyone would notice a 35$ a month tax (or whatever the art tax is) if it was part of a general tax, but parsed out like it is, of course people are going to question it.

It still rankles me that people complain so consistently about taxes. It’s just always such a small part of overall income, and yet no matter how much money people make, people get so hung up about it. I work in healthcare, and the number of times I hear coworkers say “overtime’s just not worth it; you lose it all in taxes” is ridiculous and just so obviously wrong…as evidenced by the fact that we all work a lot of overtime in spite of all the whining.

It’s absolutely fair to complain about feeling like you’re not getting much from paying your taxes. However, the solution isn’t to create a situation where you’re not paying taxes—ask all the people who end up paying for private security services and education. We need to be demanding better and more efficient governance, not lower taxes. The costs of living in a civilized society (however defined) will bear themselves out, either way.

It really surprises me that so many people bitch about Portland's Arts Tax, which by the way, is just $35 per Year. Have those people forgotten that in November 2012, Portlanders themselves voted 58% to 42% in favor of the Arts Tax because of the city's historic low financial support for the arts. Many of Portland's other tax burdens were also created by a vote of the people. Shall we rescind them?

[DMH]

Originally Posted by colossalorder

While I agree with your point that it matters what you get for you taxes, the idea that the overall tax burden doesn't matter is just intuitively a little silly. Unfortunately, I think this is the mindset of the preponderance of Portland voters and why its hard to feel optimistic about Portland's economic prospects. Its a competitive economic world. Great pizza alone is not going to save the city.

Also, the argument that taxes are insignificant is just not correct. If you are in the highest tax bracket (like the Smarsh founder), your total tax bill living in Portland is 51.77%. That's not small, that's the majority of what you make.

Portland is uncompetitive for businesses and the wealthy people who found/manage them. That's not a conservative talking point, Tina Kotek is saying the same thing. Even Jessica Vega Pederson, architect of the ill-constructed PFA tax, is calling for a delay of the 0.8% increase in 2026 that will bring PFA to 3.8%.

This article lays out the facts nicely. Portland is the absolute WORST in the country by a WIDE margin for C-corps, S-corps, partnerships, LLCs and the second worst by a narrow margin for wage income and sole proprietorships. Particularly, painful here as marginal tax brackets are so low. This isn't just affecting big corporations, its your beloved local coffee shop as well. We can believe in the facts and evidence and do something about it, or we can continue to lament the exodus of businesses from the city and the ensuing budget crisis.
https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/portland-taxes/

"It’s no secret that the Portland area has high taxes. The region is known for the world’s largest bookstore, its breweries, a vibrant art scene, and the old PDX airport carpet, but decidedly not for its commitment to tax competitiveness.

Portland residents face some of the highest taxes in the country. City, county, regional, and state taxes on individual and both net and gross business income combine to create a crushing tax wedge, yielding some of the highest marginal rates on wage income nationwide. And after factoring in the average net income effect of the Oregon Corporate Activity Tax (CAT), Portland easily has the nation’s highest marginal effective rates on both corporate and pass-through business income.

Because this tax burden is spread across so many taxes—the Supportive Housing Services Tax at the Metro level, for instance, combined with the Business Net Income Tax imposed by Multnomah County and the Business License Tax levied in Portland, all atop Oregon’s state individual income tax and gross receipts-based CAT—it can be difficult to appreciate the full burden. Unless you’re paying it.

Workers, business owners, and investors in Portland, Multnomah County, and the Metro region all experience these considerable burdens. Portland has the highest business taxes—on small and large businesses, and pass-throughs and corporations alike—and the second highest top marginal rate on wage income in the country.

...

Portland residents may want to “Keep Portland Weird,” but the city’s most unrepresentative feature need not be its tax burdens. At least for now, Portland residents face some of the country’s highest taxes on just about every class of income. In an era of dramatically increased mobility for individuals and businesses alike, that’s not a recipe for success."

Ah, but how shall we collect funds for the benefits that our community wants? Dare we once again revisit the matter of a state-wide Sales Tax in order to reduce our Income Tax?

In addition, I cannot recall when regional voters voted No on bond measures for schools, parks, libraries, housing the homeless, or purchasing Metro Green Spaces.

On the surface, it sures appears that it was we, the voting citizens, who created our huge tax burden.

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by DMH

Ah, but how shall we collect funds for the benefits that our community wants? Dare we once again revisit the matter of a state-wide Sales Tax in order to reduce our Income Tax?

In addition, I cannot recall when regional voters voted No on bond measures for schools, parks, libraries, housing the homeless, or purchasing Metro Green Spaces.

On the surface, it sures appears that it was we, the voting citizens, who created our huge tax burden.

https://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/2020/...essness-services-tax.html?outputType=amp

This editorial was telling. The backers couldn’t defend the $$ needed or how it would be implemented. And it still passed! $2.5b and “trust us”. Ballots are a horrendous way to govern, I’ll never get why west coast states do it this way so much. Let the elected democratic process work, with the time to do proper bill development for funding and implementation (yes, it’s far from a perfect process, but it’s way better than common/uninformed voters deciding details of a complex $2.5b bill).

It’s not just the money, it’s how poorly thought through the bills were. And sure enough, slow to yield results, so yeah I get it, the people/biz that pay it are frustrated. Why do you need $X, in detail, who will run it, how will it be distributed, who has oversight, how will we check to know it’s working (specific measurable metrics). Little provided, because it was ultimately a performative bill. Voters can’t/shouldnt get into these kind of details.

[aquaticko]

Originally Posted by colossalorder

While I agree with your point that it matters what you get for you taxes, the idea that the overall tax burden doesn't matter is just intuitively a little silly. Unfortunately, I think this is the mindset of the preponderance of Portland voters and why its hard to feel optimistic about Portland's economic prospects. Its a competitive economic world. Great pizza alone is not going to save the city.

Also, the argument that taxes are insignificant is just not correct. If you are in the highest tax bracket (like the Smarsh founder), your total tax bill living in Portland is 51.77%. That's not small, that's the majority of what you make.

Thing is, dropping down to the next tax bracket--which you will stay in all the way down to poverty levels of income (10,750-125,000$ single, 21.5-250k joint filing) only nets you a 1.15% drop in the state tax; the federal tax is ultimately more progressive (or is it regressive in this case?), with a drop of 13-15% (~2/3rds the total tax burden) from the highest to the equivalent ~125k/250k tax bracket. Of course, those are all marginal rates, too. I have never been and will never be in a high tax bracket, so I can't offer a first-person perspective on this, but I don't think (I hope) I'd be able to honestly say the tax burden is putting a dent in my lifestyle if I was making comfortably into six figures. It's probably cliche to do so at this point, but remember that federal personal income taxes have been as high as 94% in this country--perhaps coincidentally (perhaps not) at the time of the U.S.' period of greatest economic growth.

Portland is uncompetitive for businesses and the wealthy people who found/manage them. That's not a conservative talking point, Tina Kotek is saying the same thing. Even Jessica Vega Pederson, architect of the ill-constructed PFA tax, is calling for a delay of the 0.8% increase in 2026 that will bring PFA to 3.8%.

This article lays out the facts nicely. Portland is the absolute WORST in the country by a WIDE margin for C-corps, S-corps, partnerships, LLCs and the second worst by a narrow margin for wage income and sole proprietorships. Particularly, painful here as marginal tax brackets are so low. This isn't just affecting big corporations, its your beloved local coffee shop as well. We can believe in the facts and evidence and do something about it, or we can continue to lament the exodus of businesses from the city and the ensuing budget crisis.
https://taxfoundation.org/research/all/state/portland-taxes/

"It’s no secret that the Portland area has high taxes. The region is known for the world’s largest bookstore, its breweries, a vibrant art scene, and the old PDX airport carpet, but decidedly not for its commitment to tax competitiveness.

Portland residents face some of the highest taxes in the country. City, county, regional, and state taxes on individual and both net and gross business income combine to create a crushing tax wedge, yielding some of the highest marginal rates on wage income nationwide. And after factoring in the average net income effect of the Oregon Corporate Activity Tax (CAT), Portland easily has the nation’s highest marginal effective rates on both corporate and pass-through business income.

Because this tax burden is spread across so many taxes—the Supportive Housing Services Tax at the Metro level, for instance, combined with the Business Net Income Tax imposed by Multnomah County and the Business License Tax levied in Portland, all atop Oregon’s state individual income tax and gross receipts-based CAT—it can be difficult to appreciate the full burden. Unless you’re paying it.

Workers, business owners, and investors in Portland, Multnomah County, and the Metro region all experience these considerable burdens. Portland has the highest business taxes—on small and large businesses, and pass-throughs and corporations alike—and the second highest top marginal rate on wage income in the country.

...

Portland residents may want to “Keep Portland Weird,” but the city’s most unrepresentative feature need not be its tax burdens. At least for now, Portland residents face some of the country’s highest taxes on just about every class of income. In an era of dramatically increased mobility for individuals and businesses alike, that’s not a recipe for success."

A point isn't conservative or progressive by nature of who says it. Saying "the taxes are too high" is always going to be a regressive, pro-business talking point (reminder: private businesses by their nature do not have public interests in mind), at least up to levels that are so expropriative that an enterprise is functionally publicly-owned (which is to say nationalized/socialized), which it's worth noting works better for quite a lot of industries in quite a lot of developed countries. All the taxes that are Portland specific corporate taxes don't amount to >10%. For large corporations, this may in absolute terms amount to a large sum...but it's still <10%. (Just as an aside, take it for what you will or nothing at all, but the Tax Foundation was founded by the chairman of GM; not exactly a neutral start to its ideological life.)

We should be asking why we demand so little of our corporations anywhere in the country. I don't think it's a secret to anyone at this point that wealth and income inequality (which corporate taxes feed into) is the worst it's been since at least the end of WWII , and our national tax regime is not very effective in leveling things out.

You're not completely wrong to think that Oregon/Portland should play the same game as most of the rest of the country, cutting taxes to draw businesses and the wealthy. However, it should be noted that that's not a game anyone wins, in the end. In a very real sense, taxation is the cost of living in a civilized society, particularly a democratic one (democracy requires more administration), which most Americans at least still say they value. If we deprive democratic government of the funds to do what we want it to--and lower our expectations of what it can do--we eventually capitulate to the loss of democracy to the private interests of the powerful. That's the cause of a lot of our country's issues today.

[Bigtimecharlie]

Income inequality is bad and getting worse. Our tax systems do not appear to be changing that reality for the better. Low income folks pay little in income taxes - as it should be. High income people/corporations may have a theoretically larger marginal tax rate, but they are often in a position to take advantage of tax breaks the rest of us can’t, which lowers their overall effective rate. Then there’s the large group of folks in the middle - not wealthy, per se, but decent income earners - who are neither wealthy enough or well enough connected to take advantage of the programs the wealthy employ to reduce their overall burdens. These folks get pounded by our tax policies. I don’t know that these dynamics are tremendously different here than they are anywhere else in the country.

How do we as a society get the financing we need to pay for infrastructure, safety, education, etc. without raising marginal rates? I’ve been a hater of sales tax all my life. But I’ve got to say that although it is generally regressive, folks seem to pay it without much thought. A 10 percent sales tax is quite common today. And it allows small increases to be made in order to pay for various public services and projects. There seems to me much less angst over increasing the sales tax for a fraction of a penny in order to collect the local portion of a large public works project, for example. Most states use this mechanism and it may be time for Oregon to give it more consideration.

[downtownpdx]

Originally Posted by Bigtimecharlie

Income inequality is bad and getting worse. Our tax systems do not appear to be changing that reality for the better. Low income folks pay little in income taxes - as it should be. High income people/corporations may have a theoretically larger marginal tax rate, but they are often in a position to take advantage of tax breaks the rest of us can’t, which lowers their overall effective rate. Then there’s the large group of folks in the middle - not wealthy, per se, but decent income earners - who are neither wealthy enough or well enough connected to take advantage of the programs the wealthy employ to reduce their overall burdens. These folks get pounded by our tax policies. I don’t know that these dynamics are tremendously different here than they are anywhere else in the country.

How do we as a society get the financing we need to pay for infrastructure, safety, education, etc. without raising marginal rates? I’ve been a hater of sales tax all my life. But I’ve got to say that although it is generally regressive, folks seem to pay it without much thought. A 10 percent sales tax is quite common today. And it allows small increases to be made in order to pay for various public services and projects. There seems to me much less angst over increasing the sales tax for a fraction of a penny in order to collect the local portion of a large public works project, for example. Most states use this mechanism and it may be time for Oregon to give it more consideration.

Yeah I think just the payment method of a sales tax makes it easier to swallow. A few extra dollars on a grocery trip, buying some jeans, etc goes mostly unnoticed when it’s small amounts several times a week, but when you see your paycheck with a big chunk taken out for income tax, that gives the impression of more money being taken away. Plus just having your income so visibly reduced before your eyes isn’t fun. It’s a much fairer tax approach, hitting the poor less than a sales tax, but most people don’t appreciate or care about the larger macro economics behind it.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by aquaticko

What I admit I find confusing is how taxes are meted out, here. I don’t think anyone would notice a 35$ a month tax (or whatever the art tax is) if it was part of a general tax, but parsed out like it is, of course people are going to question it.

It still rankles me that people complain so consistently about taxes. It’s just always such a small part of overall income, and yet no matter how much money people make, people get so hung up about it. I work in healthcare, and the number of times I hear coworkers say “overtime’s just not worth it; you lose it all in taxes” is ridiculous and just so obviously wrong…as evidenced by the fact that we all work a lot of overtime in spite of all the whining.

I completely disagree that it's such a small part of overall income. Let's say you're a family of 4 making median income ($116,900) in the Portland region.

• 8.75% State. $10,150
  
• Federal: 22-24% for most middle class families plus 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security. 29.65% would be: up to $34,660. There are pre-tax savings but many people under median income save nearly nothing for retirement, and after the Trump tax changes, almost nobody can itemize deductions.
  
• Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

So before deductions, this family could be paying up to $56,310 in taxes. That's effectively 48% of their income.

Now let's look at that housing payment a little more closely. Personally, I think if you earn the median income then you should be able to afford the median priced home. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but the median home price in Portland is $534,000. So $500k for a home is a little conservative. Assume this family miraculously has 20% down and took out a loan of $400k for the townhouse. Your monthly payment is going to be about $3000 per month before including property taxes (not to double count). That's $36,000 per year, or 30% of the household's income on housing.

Of course there are a million exceptions and scenarios, but in this situation, you're looking at 78% of a median income family's salaries evaporating before anyone even has had a chance to pay for groceries, phone, utility bills, car payment, clothes, entertainment. This hypothetical family is left with $25k per year, or $2150 per month to manage all other expenses. Half of households in the region earn less than this.

This is why taxes are an important topic for people, and not only for the rich.

Originally Posted by aquaticko

It’s absolutely fair to complain about feeling like you’re not getting much from paying your taxes. However, the solution isn’t to create a situation where you’re not paying taxes—ask all the people who end up paying for private security services and education. We need to be demanding better and more efficient governance, not lower taxes. The costs of living in a civilized society (however defined) will bear themselves out, either way.

This is the actual problem. Not only are we taxed quite a lot, we're not getting much in return. I'm sure most people would be perfectly happy paying almost half of their income in taxes if they were seeing major benefits, but many middle income people simply are not seeing the value for money.

Portland has pretty poor performance at Portland Public Schools, even though Oregon spends more per student than 35 other states. Portland Public Schools outpaced statewide performance slightly, but only 55.4% of students proficient in English and language arts, 46.4% in math, and 40.3% in science.

Some of Portland's libraries have essentially become an extension of the homeless support services system in Multnomah County. I recently took the MAX downtown with my 5-year-old to visit the Multnomah Central Library and we will likely never be back with young kids. There were unhoused people smoking fentanyl right in the lobby and others passed out in most of the bathrooms. My son learned a few new curse words that day, too. Not only that, the children's section was pathetic compared to our offerings here in Washington County.

Many of Portland's parks are in a sad state, too. We've been to several recently. The facilities were old and dated, bathrooms were gross and not maintained, pavements were spalling and falling apart in places.

Roads are deteriorating, sidewalk gaps are everywhere, and a lack of cycling infrastructure exists in most of SW Portland despite having some of the highest taxes. On top of that, the public transit in the region doesn't work for most people's situations. I'm grateful the MAX and the bus system exist, but there's no question it requires major system improvements, particularly improving how MAX moves through downtown to improve times. I also think the region needs a circular route, but I have no hope that's in the cards in my lifetime.

I don't think the name of the game is avoiding taxes at all costs. It's a matter of value for money and efficiency of use. Portland is a really unaffordable place to live for a lot of people and I think the central city will have a tough time correcting the population loss, especially if the downtown development continues to flatline and taxes keep going up.

[twofiftyfive]

^^^ you should at least account for the standard deduction, which would lower federal taxes to $21,555 and state to $9,304, if I calculated correctly.

Overall, I completely agree with your point, though. We pay high taxes for embarrassingly poor services.

[uncommon.name]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I completely disagree that it's such a small part of overall income. Let's say you're a family of 4 making median income ($116,900) in the Portland region.

• 8.75% State. $10,150
  
• Federal: 22-24% for most middle class families plus 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security. 29.65% would be: up to $34,660. There are pre-tax savings but many people under median income save nearly nothing for retirement, and after the Trump tax changes, almost nobody can itemize deductions.
  
• Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

So before deductions, this family could be paying up to $56,310 in taxes. That's effectively 48% of their income.

Now let's look at that housing payment a little more closely. Personally, I think if you earn the median income then you should be able to afford the median priced home. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but the median home price in Portland is $534,000. So $500k for a home is a little conservative. Assume this family miraculously has 20% down and took out a loan of $400k for the townhouse. Your monthly payment is going to be about $3000 per month before including property taxes (not to double count). That's $36,000 per year, or 30% of the household's income on housing.

Of course there are a million exceptions and scenarios, but in this situation, you're looking at 78% of a median income family's salaries evaporating before anyone even has had a chance to pay for groceries, phone, utility bills, car payment, clothes, entertainment. This hypothetical family is left with $25k per year, or $2150 per month to manage all other expenses. Half of households in the region earn less than this.

This is why taxes are an important topic for people, and not only for the rich.



This is the actual problem. Not only are we taxed quite a lot, we're not getting much in return. I'm sure most people would be perfectly happy paying almost half of their income in taxes if they were seeing major benefits, but many middle income people simply are not seeing the value for money.

Portland has pretty poor performance at Portland Public Schools, even though Oregon spends more per student than 35 other states. Portland Public Schools outpaced statewide performance slightly, but only 55.4% of students proficient in English and language arts, 46.4% in math, and 40.3% in science.

Some of Portland's libraries have essentially become an extension of the homeless support services system in Multnomah County. I recently took the MAX downtown with my 5-year-old to visit the Multnomah Central Library and we will likely never be back with young kids. There were unhoused people smoking fentanyl right in the lobby and others passed out in most of the bathrooms. My son learned a few new curse words that day, too. Not only that, the children's section was pathetic compared to our offerings here in Washington County.

Many of Portland's parks are in a sad state, too. We've been to several recently. The facilities were old and dated, bathrooms were gross and not maintained, pavements were spalling and falling apart in places.

Roads are deteriorating, sidewalk gaps are everywhere, and a lack of cycling infrastructure exists in most of SW Portland despite having some of the highest taxes. On top of that, the public transit in the region doesn't work for most people's situations. I'm grateful the MAX and the bus system exist, but there's no question it requires major system improvements, particularly improving how MAX moves through downtown to improve times. I also think the region needs a circular route, but I have no hope that's in the cards in my lifetime.

I don't think the name of the game is avoiding taxes at all costs. It's a matter of value for money and efficiency of use. Portland is a really unaffordable place to live for a lot of people and I think the central city will have a tough time correcting the population loss, especially if the downtown development continues to flatline and taxes keep going up.

Well said.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I completely disagree that it's such a small part of overall income. Let's say you're a family of 4 making median income ($116,900) in the Portland region.

• 8.75% State. $10,150
  
• Federal: 22-24% for most middle class families plus 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security. 29.65% would be: up to $34,660. There are pre-tax savings but many people under median income save nearly nothing for retirement, and after the Trump tax changes, almost nobody can itemize deductions.
  
• Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

So before deductions, this family could be paying up to $56,310 in taxes. That's effectively 48% of their income.

This doesn't account for either the standard deduction or itemized deductions; it doesn't account for how tax brackets work; and the property taxes for a new build townhouse are absurdly high. I'm not going to bother trying to calculate a hypothetical family's tax burden, but this is nowhere near a realistic example.

[aquaticko]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I completely disagree that it's such a small part of overall income. Let's say you're a family of 4 making median income ($116,900) in the Portland region.

• 8.75% State. $10,150
  
• Federal: 22-24% for most middle class families plus 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security. 29.65% would be: up to $34,660. There are pre-tax savings but many people under median income save nearly nothing for retirement, and after the Trump tax changes, almost nobody can itemize deductions.
  
• Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

So before deductions, this family could be paying up to $56,310 in taxes. That's effectively 48% of their income.

Now let's look at that housing payment a little more closely. Personally, I think if you earn the median income then you should be able to afford the median priced home. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but the median home price in Portland is $534,000. So $500k for a home is a little conservative. Assume this family miraculously has 20% down and took out a loan of $400k for the townhouse. Your monthly payment is going to be about $3000 per month before including property taxes (not to double count). That's $36,000 per year, or 30% of the household's income on housing.

Of course there are a million exceptions and scenarios, but in this situation, you're looking at 78% of a median income family's salaries evaporating before anyone even has had a chance to pay for groceries, phone, utility bills, car payment, clothes, entertainment. This hypothetical family is left with $25k per year, or $2150 per month to manage all other expenses. Half of households in the region earn less than this.

This is why taxes are an important topic for people, and not only for the rich.

Several points here:

1.) A HUGE part of this problem is housing costs. It used to be the case that people said <15% of income should go to housing. We all know how it's come to be normalized at ~30% (I, personally, pay about ~50% of my income in rent [excluding utilities], if I don't work overtime; thankfully I'm not supporting anyone, and I live cheaply). Building enough housing to reduce costs--and related property tax valuations--is a generational problem which is about to be as off-the-radar as a solution as it's going to be for several years. (Needless to say, building housing such that the additional expense of car ownership isn't functionally required is pretty head-in-the-sandily rejected by a lot of people, despite the countless benefits awaiting us in doing so.)

2.) Another part of this is that income growth has been stagnating everywhere in this country, for a long time, outside of the very highest tax brackets.

3.) We were originally talking about Portland's tax competitiveness relative to other jurisdictions. If the difference between the city/metro and other places is <10%, it's probably not actually making a big difference, especially to the people who are so financially constrained that the extra cost of moving is a stretch too far. Again, I'd also argue it points out that other places are letting potential public money slip through their hands.

This is the actual problem. Not only are we taxed quite a lot, we're not getting much in return. I'm sure most people would be perfectly happy paying almost half of their income in taxes if they were seeing major benefits, but many middle income people simply are not seeing the value for money.

Portland has pretty poor performance at Portland Public Schools, even though Oregon spends more per student than 35 other states. Portland Public Schools outpaced statewide performance slightly, but only 55.4% of students proficient in English and language arts, 46.4% in math, and 40.3% in science.

Some of Portland's libraries have essentially become an extension of the homeless support services system in Multnomah County. I recently took the MAX downtown with my 5-year-old to visit the Multnomah Central Library and we will likely never be back with young kids. There were unhoused people smoking fentanyl right in the lobby and others passed out in most of the bathrooms. My son learned a few new curse words that day, too. Not only that, the children's section was pathetic compared to our offerings here in Washington County.

Many of Portland's parks are in a sad state, too. We've been to several recently. The facilities were old and dated, bathrooms were gross and not maintained, pavements were spalling and falling apart in places.

Roads are deteriorating, sidewalk gaps are everywhere, and a lack of cycling infrastructure exists in most of SW Portland despite having some of the highest taxes. On top of that, the public transit in the region doesn't work for most people's situations. I'm grateful the MAX and the bus system exist, but there's no question it requires major system improvements, particularly improving how MAX moves through downtown to improve times. I also think the region needs a circular route, but I have no hope that's in the cards in my lifetime.

I don't think the name of the game is avoiding taxes at all costs. It's a matter of value for money and efficiency of use. Portland is a really unaffordable place to live for a lot of people and I think the central city will have a tough time correcting the population loss, especially if the downtown development continues to flatline and taxes keep going up.

But you do understand that for a lot of people in this country, the only solution to high taxes is lower and lower taxes, rather than better governance, right? I joke that for the past 40-50 years, one of our two major parties has argued that government is inherently inefficient, and the other party has tried to prove them right. Nonetheless, our trajectory right now is neither better governance or lower taxes; it's just worse governance, covered by misleading propaganda that claims lower taxes while secretly everything is privatized and costs remain high (because we don't have a lot of price controls on private industry).

If we live in a democracy with an active/proactive government, we at least have a say in how are taxes are spent. If all we do is complain about taxes and want for the easy way out of ever-lower taxation, everything ends up privatized, and we then have no say in how wealthier and more powerful actors influence our lives.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth specifically, I'm just trying to remind people of the bigger trend here.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

This doesn't account for either the standard deduction or itemized deductions; it doesn't account for how tax brackets work; and the property taxes for a new build townhouse are absurdly high. I'm not going to bother trying to calculate a hypothetical family's tax burden, but this is nowhere near a realistic example.

You're right, that was lazy of me. But my overarching point still stands that it's far more expensive to live in Portland when we're comparing apples to apples, and taxes play a role in that.

I singled out townhouses for property taxes because everywhere I look, urbanists, policymakers, affordable housing professionals and planners are constantly talking about how missing middle housing needs to be built because it's cheaper than houses on single family lots but they don't usually bring property taxes into that discussion.

Townhouse and condo affordability has been used as the primary argument to allow 3-6 units on traditional single family lots. I could only find two 3-bedroom condos for sale in greater downtown for under $500k. One had a tax bill of $8.5k per year with a $900/mo HOA and the other had a $7.7k tax bill and a $1,040/mo HOA. Neither of them have garage parking, just on-street.

And while the sale prices of townhouses and condos often are indeed lower than detached single family, once you factor in the high property taxes in Portland along with the HOA fees, they really aren't more affordable than naturally occurring affordable housing in the form of single family homes and townhouses farther out. Building more housing is needed, but the tax burden for attached housing is sky high in the city and I think it should be lower given how little infrastructure they use on a per unit basis. In most of the cases I found, the property taxes for townhouses in Portland would be between $700 and $1000 per month. And it's not just new builds.

Here's a townhouse built in 1996 in Southwest Portland. It sold in 1996 for $169,000 and its yearly tax bill is now $8,349.80. Here's another townhouse (1600 sq. ft.) in Goose Hollow, built in 1998 which sold for $371k in 2011. The property taxes are $11,172 per year. Here's a townhouse built in 2009 in the Overlook neighborhood with a yearly property tax bill of $10,920. Here's another with $8k per year. So it's not out of the realm of possibility to pay between $8k and $11k per year on an attached townhouse in Portland at this moment in time, which is likely to go up 3% per year for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, my entire point is that it's quite a bit more expensive to live in Portland, and there's virtually nowhere that's affordable for median income families in or around downtown. There's some subsidized housing, but downtown (inclusive of NW) is predominantly for higher income people and that needs to change.

Here's a townhouse that recently sold near Elmonica Station. The property taxes were $3,930 last year and the HOA fee is $265/mo. Even assuming a similar HOA fee, the condos I listed above in the Pearl District or Alphabet District would cost my hypothetical family an extra $4k per year in property taxes.

Alternatively, A median income family near Elmonica could walk their kids to school, walk to the MAX, walk to several excellent parks and rec facilities, including Tualatin Hills Nature Park and Tualatin Hills Athletic & Aquatic Center. Alternatively, I recently saw a post on LinkedIn from a mother who lives in downtown Portland and she said there wasn't even a playground to bring her kids to downtown. Not sure if that's true, but if so, that's a real shame.

A person living near Elmonica could hop on the max and be at Orenco, or downtown Hillsboro, Beaverton or Portland in 20-30 minutes for work or entertainment. They could take the MAX or ride their bike to some of the region's largest employers, including Nike, Intel, Columbia, Knight Cancer Institute, Beaverton School District, or Providence. There are also some potential savings for people who can live car free or car light in downtown. But most families still need at least one car, and you could live car light on the westside MAX line (as I do).

Beaverton Schools has some top rated public schools nearby (International School, Academy of Science & Engineering both rank higher than Lincoln, with better test scores and graduation rates). This family would be living in a neighborhood that's more racially diverse (50% white alone vs. 70-75% white alone downtown) and income diverse.

WCCLS has excellent libraries, particularly for kids, including Brookwood, Downtown Beaverton, Cedar Mill, North Bethany, and Aloha. All while enjoying lower crime and fewer issues with homelessness and drugs.

There are a lot of positive tangibles and intangibles about living in the central city. I've stated myself that I'd love living in Northwest someday. But in addition to the taxes being high, there aren't many units affordable to middle income people.

In summary, my perspective is that Portland needs to vastly increase the supply of housing downtown and it should lower property taxes for attached units. I also think the area needs more amenities like better neighborhood libraries and parks to improve the quality of life for families with young kids.

[mhays]

New townhouses are expensive, but they don't have to be and won't be forever.

For one, they'll gradually get cheaper (in relative terms) as they age--if we get enough of them. They'll be the naturally-occurring affordable units of tomorrow along with every other housing type.

Two, it's expensive to build 2,000 sf, and always will be. But if policy were to encourage smaller townhouses (let's say 1,000 sf) we'd get a lot of them and they'd be much cheaper. Some prices might stay the same or similar per unit (permits, hookups, land, fridge, etc.) but others should drop in proportion to materials used, as developers compete with each other.

A big part of housing affordability is making sure we get enough units to avoid a big scarcity premium--for land (per potential new unit) and for existing housing. Greater Portland has done ok vs. the other big West Coast cities so far, but could do better.

[maccoinnich]

Originally Posted by subterranean

[*]Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

Originally Posted by subterranean

Here's a townhouse built in 1996 in Southwest Portland. It sold in 1996 for $169,000 and its yearly tax bill is now $8,349.80. Here's another townhouse (1600 sq. ft.) in Goose Hollow, built in 1998 which sold for $371k in 2011. The property taxes are $11,172 per year. Here's a townhouse built in 2009 in the Overlook neighborhood with a yearly property tax bill of $10,920. Here's another with $8k per year. So it's not out of the realm of possibility to pay between $8k and $11k per year on an attached townhouse in Portland at this moment in time, which is likely to go up 3% per year for the foreseeable future.

Look, if you're going to base your arguments on newly constructed townhouses then use newly constructed townhouses as your examples (two of three examples were built around the time Measure 50 passed, and are therefore highly affected by the distortions of that measure). Here's a Redfin search for homes in Portland built after 2021, priced between $450K and $550k. The taxes shown on Redfin hover around $6,000/year. Most of them are too new to be able to verify those numbers against previous year’s bills on Portland Maps, but for 5482 NE Cesar E Chavez Blvd we can confirm that the 2023 tax bill was $6,362.32.

[DMH]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I completely disagree that it's such a small part of overall income. Let's say you're a family of 4 making median income ($116,900) in the Portland region.

• 8.75% State. $10,150
  
• Federal: 22-24% for most middle class families plus 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security. 29.65% would be: up to $34,660. There are pre-tax savings but many people under median income save nearly nothing for retirement, and after the Trump tax changes, almost nobody can itemize deductions.
  
• Property Tax on a newly constructed missing middle townhouse valued at $500k (@23 mills): $11,500/yr

So before deductions, this family could be paying up to $56,310 in taxes. That's effectively
48% of their income.

Now let's look at that housing payment a little more closely. Personally, I think if you earn the median income then you should be able to afford the median priced home. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but the median home price in Portland is $534,000. So $500k for a home is a little conservative. Assume this family miraculously has 20% down and took out a loan of $400k for the townhouse. Your monthly payment is going to be about $3000 per month before including property taxes (not to double count). That's $36,000 per year, or 30% of the household's income on housing.

Of course there are a million exceptions and scenarios, but in this situation, you're looking at 78% of a median income family's salaries evaporating before anyone even has had a chance to pay for groceries, phone, utility bills, car payment, clothes, entertainment. This hypothetical family is left with $25k per year, or $2150 per month to manage all other expenses. Half of households in the region earn less than this.

This is why taxes are an important topic for people, and not only for the rich.




This is the actual problem. Not only are we taxed quite a lot, we're not getting much in return. I'm sure most people would be perfectly happy paying almost half of their income in taxes if they were seeing major benefits, but many middle income people simply are not seeing the value for money.

Portland has pretty poor performance at Portland Public Schools, even though Oregon spends more per student than 35 other states. Portland Public Schools outpaced statewide performance slightly, but only 55.4% of students proficient in English and language arts, 46.4% in math, and 40.3% in science.

Some of Portland's libraries have essentially become an extension of the homeless support services system in Multnomah County. I recently took the MAX downtown with my 5-year-
old to visit the Multnomah Central Library and we will likely never be back with young kids. There were unhoused people smoking fentanyl right in the lobby and others passed out in
most of the bathrooms. My son learned a few new curse words that day, too. Not only that,
the children's section was pathetic compared to our offerings here in Washington County.




I don't want to steer this discussion too far off subject, but concerning Central Library, I was Downtown with a friend on a Friday in December, and we were on our way to Happy Hour at Jake's Grill. She had never seen Central Library, so I took her inside for a tour. We wandered through all reading rooms on all three floors and chatted with knowledgeable staff members. We did not check out the restrooms, however. We did not see any homeless people or drug users. The library was beautiful and well-maintained. My friend was very impressed.

Perhaps she and I saw Central Library on a good day. Or perhaps you saw Central Library on a bad day.







Many of Portland's parks are in a sad state, too. We've been to several recently. The facilities were old and dated, bathrooms were gross and not maintained, pavements were spalling and falling apart in places.

Roads are deteriorating, sidewalk gaps are everywhere, and a lack of cycling infrastructure exists in most of SW Portland despite having some of the highest taxes. On top of that, the public transit in the region doesn't work for most people's situations. I'm grateful the MAX and the bus system exist, but there's no question it requires major system improvements, particularly improving how MAX moves through downtown to improve times. I also think the region needs a circular route, but I have no hope that's in the cards in my lifetime.

I don't think the name of the game is avoiding taxes at all costs. It's a matter of value for money and efficiency of use. Portland is a really unaffordable place to live for a lot of people and I think the central city will have a tough time correcting the population loss, especially if the downtown development continues to flatline and taxes keep going up.

I don't want to steer this discussion too far off subject, but concerning Central Library, I was Downtown with a friend on a Friday in December, and we were on our way to Happy Hour at Jake's Grill. She had never seen Central Library, so I took her inside for a tour. We wandered through all reading rooms on all three floors and chatted with knowledgeable staff members. We did not check out the restrooms, however. We did not see any homeless people or drug users. The library was beautiful and well-maintained. My friend was very impressed.

Perhaps she and I saw Central Library on a good day. Or perhaps you saw Central Library on a bad day.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Look, if you're going to base your arguments on newly constructed townhouses then use newly constructed townhouses as your examples (two of three examples were built around the time Measure 50 passed, and are therefore highly affected by the distortions of that measure). Here's a Redfin search for homes in Portland built after 2021, priced between $450K and $550k. The taxes shown on Redfin hover around $6,000/year. Most of them are too new to be able to verify those numbers against previous year’s bills on Portland Maps, but for 5482 NE Cesar E Chavez Blvd we can confirm that the 2023 tax bill was $6,362.32.

Now you're just being intentionally misleading. The $11,500 I stated was for an assessed value of $500k, not the real market value. The property you linked to has an assessed value of $247,300.00 and taxes will rise by at least 3% per year. Additionally, that townhouse you linked to is the only currently for-sale comparable townhome with 3 bedrooms with comparable square footage for under $550k that I could find that was built between 2016 and 2023.

I was looking at comparable properties to my Elmonica example. The townhouses at Arbor Station at Elmonica were built in 2003 to 2004. 17002 SW Berkeley is a 3 bedroom 4 bath with 1800 square feet that sold last year and has a property tax bill of $4,614 per year. So since you had a problem with properties built in the 90s, I've included below a list of Portland properties that were all built after this one, many of which were built right around the financial crisis.

4340 N Michigan Ave (2018) - $7,511/yr

3630 SE 27th Ave (2022) - $7,025/yr

8828 SW 12 Ave (2018) - $8,486

1116 SE Linn St (2007) - $8,540

7509 SW Capitol Hwy (2009) - $8,111

1549 N Prescott St #2 (2009) - $8,428

3618 NE 12th Ave (2013) - $7,771

313 NE Morris St (2016) - $7,736

2614 SW Water Ave (2008) - $9,317

3617 SE Rhine St (2008) - $7,934

At this point, I just don't even know what you're arguing anymore. Portland has higher taxes, housing is expensive and there's not enough of it, water is wet.