Winnipeg | Osborne Village & Corydon area

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Biff

This misses the point. I understand that having a building full of cops is not a deterrent because there are no actual cops on the street. Putting actual humans on the street every few block does. Being drunk and disorderly is a crime…except in this city. I believe if the police had an actual street presence these people visibly drunk or high could be removed an taken to a sobering centre before any unnecessary altercation takes place - assault, vandalism, b&e.

It works in downtown Chicago.

There are hundreds of cops working in the HQ at any given time. Some fraction of them are going to be coming or going at any given time which ultimately means yes, there are cops on the street, it doesn't change much.

Downtown Chicago is not really comparable. Chicago, like many US cities, has a gentrified downtown and the real issues are all in residential neighbourhoods outside the downtown. The police presence is there to make the tourists and business folks feel secure but that's mostly for show because all the issues are on the south side anyway. 700 homicides per year. Homicide rate 5x higher than Winnipeg. Go to Washington Park at night and tell me again about how Chicago solved crime lol.

The police take 8 hours to respond to robberies. They're not assigning cops to go around downtown arresting people for maybe being intoxicated because there are no resources for it and if they had more resources there are bigger priorities they would put them on anyway. 90% of the time those kinds of things can be dealt with much cheaper and much more effectively by expanding outreach programs.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

WPS already often doesn’t respond to serious crimes because they are too stretched, where are the cops going to come from to stand on the corners?

WPS increased their downtown foot patrols last year, but it hasn’t done much good. People still get randomly attacked by people on meth.

You mistake “building full of cops” for no cops. The cops stationed at the Thompson detachment or at WPS headquarters were constantly coming and going from the building and witnessed lots of things and thought to themselves “nope, not dealing with that again” and kept on going.

“police presence” for standing on a corner in Osborne village in hopes of preventing drunk people from loitering there takes them off of serious violent calls throughout the city which they can’t already keep up with.

All day every single day this is all I deal with in court. Just like cops have admitted they can’t arrest their way out of problems today, standing on a corner here or there won’t have much of an effect either.

Lord knows if they were actually going to go that route, Osborne Village wouldn’t be in my top 25 places for them to start.

Is Manitoba decriminalizing first time DUI offenses? BC and Alberta have, and in at least BC, it's freed up a lot of time in courts for other things, and officers don't have to worry about testifying.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

There are hundreds of cops working in the HQ at any given time. Some fraction of them are going to be coming or going at any given time which ultimately means yes, there are cops on the street, it doesn't change much.

Downtown Chicago is not really comparable. Chicago, like many US cities, has a gentrified downtown and the real issues are all in residential neighbourhoods outside the downtown. The police presence is there to make the tourists and business folks feel secure but that's mostly for show because all the issues are on the south side anyway. 700 homicides per year. Homicide rate 5x higher than Winnipeg. Go to Washington Park at night and tell me again about how Chicago solved crime lol.

I am not naive to the fact that Chicago as a whole is a multitude of times more dangerous than Winnipeg.

I will state again that the police stationed in cruisers every 3rd block or so, with the job of keeping eyes on the streets (not walking in to work from their car) is keeping the areas safer. There is no visible (using that term loosely) intoxication, encampments or violent issues - that I have seen in my travels there.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Biff

I am not naive to the fact that Chicago as a whole is a multitude of times more dangerous than Winnipeg.

I will state again that the police stationed in cruisers every 3rd block or so, with the job of keeping eyes on the streets (not walking in to work from their car) is keeping the areas safer. There is no visible (using that term loosely) intoxication, encampments or violent issues - that I have seen in my travels there.

Yeah but like I said, you're not hanging out on the south side where the poor folks actually are. If you moved all the low-income housing in Chicago to the middle of downtown would that still be true?

The geography of poverty and crime is not the same in Chicago as it is here. Sure there's not a lot of crime in an area that's mostly tourists, business executives and multi-million dollar condos. We don't have that kind of downtown so I don't think we can pretend you just pop some beat cops on the corner and the issues go away. If beat cops had defeated crime in south Chicago then sure that would be a different story.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

The North End has always been that way in the rougher areas, going back 100 years. I am not sure what your point is.

Definitely not. I owned a house in Point Douglas starting around 1982 or 83. At that time I regularly walked from downtown to home and there were no safety issues at all. Starting around 1990 everything started to change. As all the old Ukrainians and Polish folk started dying out the sharks moved in. They bought their houses and turned them into rooming house after rooming house throughout the entire neighbourhood. It took about 5 years to go from great to shit. I finally bailed in 1998 when I realizes that I couldn't even leave my kid in the yard to go even answer the phone for fear of their safety. The moment was sealed when I was jumped behind Metro Meats by two I.P. I got away with a broken arm, many stitches, especially on my head. My friend didn't fare so well. I guess they were mad when I got away and they mangled his face with the construction metal from the renovation going on at the time to Metro Meats.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

Definitely not. I owned a house in Point Douglas starting around 1982 or 83. At that time I regularly walked from downtown to home and there were no safety issues at all. Starting around 1990 everything started to change. As all the old Ukrainians and Polish folk started dying out the sharks moved in. They bought their houses and turned them into rooming house after rooming house throughout the entire neighbourhood. It took about 5 years to go from great to shit. I finally bailed in 1998 when I realizes that I couldn't even leave my kid in the yard to go even answer the phone for fear of their safety. The moment was sealed when I was jumped behind Metro Meats by two I.P. I got away with a broken arm, many stitches, especially on my head. My friend didn't fare so well. I guess they were mad when I got away and they mangled his face with the construction metal from the renovation going on at the time to Metro Meats.

The youth gangs were only getting started in the late 80's. As a teen in the early to mid 80's I never had a worry visiting friends in the North End by bus.

[ColdRain&Snow]

Here are the crime statistics from 1998 - 2022. I would say the most useful statistic is the "Crime Rate per 100,000 Population." The crime rate in 2022 was lower than in 1998. The crime rate in Winnipeg peaked in 2005, then went down until 2014, and has been slowly going up since 2014. In 2022, the crime rate was almost as high as it was in 1998. As far as I understand, the crime rate was lower in the 70's and 80's, but I wasn't alive back then and I haven't seen any statistics on it.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...101%2C20220101

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

Definitely not. I owned a house in Point Douglas starting around 1982 or 83.At that time I regularly walked from downtown to home and there were no safety issues at all.Starting around 1990 everything started to change. As all the old Ukrainians and Polish folk started dying out the sharks moved in. They bought their houses and turned them into rooming house after rooming house throughout the entire neighbourhood. It took about 5 years to go from great to shit. I finally bailed in 1998 when I realizes that I couldn't even leave my kid in the yard to go even answer the phone for fear of their safety.

Higgins Ave was full of drugs and prostitution. Euclid , and the area immediately surrounding it was never safe. Of course, going down North Main and Selkirk or Flora was a lot worse. Who are you trying to fool anyway? You expect us to believe that in 15 years, one could go from the Point Douglas area, through North Main, to downtown and back, and feel completely safe, but 15 years later, you and your family were literally prisoners in your own home? lol. Get real.

Your whole argument that Winnipeg has turned into some kind of hellhole that is a haven for violent criminals, is bordering on comical. If Winnipeg was placed in America, it would actually be one of the safer cities, having a per-capita crime rate of a Spokane, Washington, and lower than criminal hot-sports like Colorado Springs.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

As all the old Ukrainians and Polish folk started dying out the sharks moved in. They bought their houses and turned them into rooming house after rooming house throughout the entire neighbourhood. It took about 5 years to go from great to shit. .

It's a real shame how much the North End went down hill. Driving and walking through there, on some of the back streets you can see some really beautiful old homes, or what once were beutiful homes. I hope some day the area can be fixed up.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

Here are the crime statistics from 1998 - 2022. I would say the most useful statistic is the "Crime Rate per 100,000 Population." The crime rate in 2022 was lower than in 1998. The crime rate in Winnipeg peaked in 2005, then went down until 2014, and has been slowly going up since 2014. In 2022, the crime rate was almost as high as it was in 1998. As far as I understand, the crime rate was lower in the 70's and 80's, but I wasn't alive back then and I haven't seen any statistics on it.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...101%2C20220101

The crime rate for North America seemed to bottom out in 2014. So crime has been rising in the past decade. Just not to the extent that it was for much of the 80s and 90s.

[BlackDog204]

...

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by ColdRain&Snow

Here are the crime statistics from 1998 - 2022. I would say the most useful statistic is the "Crime Rate per 100,000 Population." The crime rate in 2022 was lower than in 1998. The crime rate in Winnipeg peaked in 2005, then went down until 2014, and has been slowly going up since 2014. In 2022, the crime rate was almost as high as it was in 1998. As far as I understand, the crime rate was lower in the 70's and 80's, but I wasn't alive back then and I haven't seen any statistics on it.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...101%2C20220101

I find it very interesting that the rate of charges per 100,000 of youth halved from 2002-2014 and halved again 2014-2022. I'm not sure what to make of that in the context of the rate of crime over that time. It does seem to be a potential reason for my anecdotal opinion of a much greater rate of youth crime in the city and especially in the city core. Less consequences, more opportunity to test boundaries.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Visible law enforcement officers act as a deterrent from antisocial behaviour, so I would say they can prevent crime, or reduce it.

I mean, there have been stabbings at the Millennium Library and at the Cargill Building, both right next door to the police headquarters...

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

I mean, there have been stabbings at the Millennium Library and at the Cargill Building, both right next door to the police headquarters...

There were no visible officers at said locations.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

There were no visible officers at said locations.

So our solution is to have uniformed officers just standing around on every block at all times? The police budget has increased astronomically for 25 years, starving every other department of funding, and despite that they still can't respond to actual calls of actual crimes occurring in a reasonable time frame. So where do we get the budget to hire tons more cops to just kinda stand around all over the inner city all day in case something happens?

It's not like it happens every afternoon. The Graham stabbing was 5 months ago. The library incident was a year and a half ago. So in the meantime you want a bunch of cops to just sit on those corners for months on end doing basically nothing? Is that the most effective use of their time in reducing crime?

You'll never fix the issue if you keep ignoring the actual causes. The common denominator in both those incidents is young kids who are products of our failed CFS system and the rampant FASD problem. Maybe we should address that.

Most violent crimes are impulsive. The perps don't carefully weight the pros and cons. This is especially true of 14 year-olds with FASD and people on meth. Which is why more patrols and longer sentences isn't the deterrent some people think it is.

Also worth noting that the VICTIMS in both cases were vulnerable people. A young girl in the CFS system who was stabbed by her friend and a young homeless guy who was harassed and then stabbed by young hooligans. These crimes happened partly because the victims were vulnerable targets. They were vulnerable targets because of homelessness and the failed CFS system. Maybe we should address that.

Greater police presence has more to do with making middle-class people FEEL safe than protecting the people who are actually at risk - primarily homeless and marginalized people.

[bomberjet]

There is no plan. Status quo. Just keep throwing money at the Police for whatever reason.

[plrh]

What if the police tried a London-style camera monitoring program, with a quick reaction force? It might work well in the downtown area, especially at night. It wouldn't prevent crime at first, but it might if it were effective for a long period. I've seen too many British crime shows.

[Atrial78]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

If Winnipeg was placed in America, it would actually be one of the safer cities, having a per-capita crime rate of a Spokane, Washington, and lower than criminal hot-sports like Colorado Springs.

Having lived in the States, my experience was that crime in most cities was confined to certain areas and not tolerated in others. A lot of the cities were safe, yet the areas with crime could be incredibly violent. I think Chicago would be a good example of this. I do wonder why a fairly gentrified area (and becoming more so) like Osborne Village is seeing these crimes. Proximity to downtown likely plays a role, but the closest areas to OV are the Manitoba Legislature and CanadaLife building - not exactly harbingers of crime.

I lived in Portland, OR prior to moving to Winnipeg. Portland tried limiting the role of policing and decriminalized drug use and unfortunately it was a big failure there. For US standards at least, Portland did try to provide more social and health support. Overall, I do think that policing can play both a proactive and reactive role. However, the biggest part of the solution is tackling poverty, drug use, mental health, etc.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Atrial78

Having lived in the States, my experience was that crime in most cities was confined to certain areas and not tolerated in others. A lot of the cities were safe, yet the areas with crime could be incredibly violent. I think Chicago would be a good example of this. I do wonder why a fairly gentrified area (and becoming more so) like Osborne Village is seeing these crimes. Proximity to downtown likely plays a role, but the closest areas to OV are the Manitoba Legislature and CanadaLife building - not exactly harbingers of crime.

I lived in Portland, OR prior to moving to Winnipeg. Portland tried limiting the role of policing and decriminalized drug use and unfortunately it was a big failure there. For US standards at least, Portland did try to provide more social and health support. Overall, I do think that policing can play both a proactive and reactive role. However, the biggest part of the solution is tackling poverty, drug use, mental health, etc.

I believe even BC is backtracking on some of their decriminalization policies. They just recently received federal approval to recriminalize drug use in public after that policy had negative consequences.

[bon_vivant]

Originally Posted by dmacc

I believe even BC is backtracking on some of their decriminalization policies. They just recently received federal approval to recriminalize drug use in public after that policy had negative consequences.

One of the reasons it failed is because there was (and still is) insufficient treatment and support. Decriminalization helped with reducing backlogs in the courts, but it rendered the cops powerless in keeping things under control on the streets. Decriminalization is not the magic bullet they hoped it would be. Without the other pillars in place (treatment, housing, etc), it's bound to fail.