Regional and Intercity Bus\Rail Transportation

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is not your concern if Rockland decides to offer a commuter bus service if it is funded by Rockland taxpayers.

You don't pay provincial and federal taxes? How'd you manage that?

Also, I am going to enjoy the laughs when those of you advocating for this get what you want and suddenly find that OC Transpo is competing for funding with all these smaller transit service, after two decades of exurban growth. Toronto went through that in the 90s under Mike Harris. Maybe Ottawa needs its own learning experience.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Toronto went through that in the 90s under Mike Harris. Maybe Ottawa needs its own learning experience.

What are you referring to? Mike Harris cut transit funding broadly, but I don't recall any fights between the TTC and regional services.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We can't stop them. We can make sure they carry the full cost of the decision to live there though.

The balance between the cost borne by each of the parties involved (home owners and buyers, developers, levels of government, etc.) is largely the result of what are democratic debates and decisions though.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Indeed. Which is why exactly why amalgamation was a bad idea. It's looking worse in Ottawa than Toronto these days.

I do tend to agree that Ottawa was amalgamated too extensively, but prior to amalgamation the suburbs were all fighting to have developers build more homes in their cities/townships.

We should. There should be no exclusive R1 anywhere in the city. Let people build what they want on their land.

While I do agree that zoning (especially R1) is way too restrictive, allowing anyone to build anything on their land is too permissive (there is a happy middle ground). Some types of industry needs to be kept at a distance from land used for residential purposes. Certainly R1 and R1.5 should be combined and it should become R-R1 (for low-medium residential-retail).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You don't pay provincial and federal taxes? How'd you manage that?

Also, I am going to enjoy the laughs when those of you advocating for this get what you want and suddenly find that OC Transpo is competing for funding with all these smaller transit service, after two decades of exurban growth. Toronto went through that in the 90s under Mike Harris. Maybe Ottawa needs its own learning experience.

I think you should worry a whole lot more about GO Transit and the TTC than a couple of buses running around exurban Ottawa, if provincial and federal taxes are a concern.

I am not concerned if we are making a more accessible region.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

What are you referring to? Mike Harris cut transit funding broadly, but I don't recall any fights between the TTC and regional services.

I think at one point under Harris municipalities ran GO Transit and probably 905 outvoted 416. Might be what he is referring too.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Of course, people move around. I could say the same thing about Gloucester and Nepean. What happened to all the old farm families? But a deteriorating economy also pushes people out, so new families also preserve old businesses.

What you are talking about is change. We all know that change is impossible to avoid. We can't avoid people moving to small town Eastern Ontario. The services offered should reflect those changes, rather than saying, NO, you can't have that because ........ (some theoretical preferences being applied to other people).

Gloucester and Nepean aren’t rural anymore (except Potemkin greenbelt). Suburbs didn’t fix whatever challenges the former rural communities had, they eliminated the rural communities.

You can’t stop people from moving, but a lot of moving decisions are based on government decisions, you can change those incentives.

In an environment where there are brownfield, greyfield, and greenfield sites all over the urban boundary of Ottawa, to me it makes little sense to incentivize exurbanization of eastern Ontario and the destruction of rural communities.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think at one point under Harris municipalities ran GO Transit and probably 905 outvoted 416. Might be what he is referring too.

Thanks, never knew that. It looks like Harris downloaded it to municipalities for about 3 years, then took it back.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

Thanks, never knew that. It looks like Harris downloaded it to municipalities for about 3 years, then took it back.

I didn't remember that either. Downloaded January 1, 1999, took it back, January 1, 2002. This was a strange choice when it required another level of cross-municipal management for GO, the opposite of Harris' attempts to streamline bureaucracy.

There were a lot of bad transportation decisions made during those years. The downloading of much of the provincial highway network, the sell off of Highway 407, and the ending of regular capital funding for transit projects.

[lrt's friend]

I think everybody here should watch the following 40 minute video. There are so many ideas presented here on modernizing transit and making it more useful and attractive to a wider spectrum of the population. It directly speaks to the future of regional transit in the GTA but many ideas can be directly applied to Ottawa on a smaller scale. Ottawa cannot have the same scale of rail service but many of the concepts can be translated to enhanced bus service and speaks to regional transit.

If you have been following my comments over the years, I have been advocating a transit grid so our focus is not so much on downtown commuting. This is especially important as commuting may become less important post-covid. I have also been advocating building transit much earlier in the development cycle, something that is specifically mentioned in this video. We cannot continue to always build roads first, and transit much, much later.

This is also relevant to building our regional transit, whether by bus or rail in the longer-term. Our discussion should be about accessibility of our greater community and not about urban sprawl. Urban sprawl will continue to happen and there are many complex factors beyond building a regional transit system that are much more important in creating urban sprawl. Continued promotion of auto dependence in our suburbs and exurbs will definitely accelerate urban sprawl by necessity. Auto dependence will always mean bigger roads and bigger parking lots, which all produce wasted space and reduced density.

Enjoy this video. I certainly did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGddh6l5lz8

[Truenorth00]

Can't reduce "auto dependence" while facilitating living further and further from the core. That's a simple fact.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa's future inter-city bus service — more players in deregulated world?
The Ford government is dissolving the Ontario Highway Transport Board, which for decades controlled the entry of private companies into the inter-city bus market.

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Apr 04, 2021 • 2 hours ago • 3 minute read



On July 1, for the first time in a century, inter-city bus travel in Ontario will be deregulated and service options thrown wide open.

But, where rubber meets the road, nobody seems sure what this means for the travelling public.

The Ford government is dissolving the Ontario Highway Transport Board, a little-known arms-length organization that, for decades, controlled the entry of private companies into the inter-city bus market.

For better or worse, the old regulatory framework was the reason giants like Greyhound were able to dominate the more popular routes and could abandon less profitable ones that were still vital to smaller communities. (The board gave a licence holder the right to oppose new players trying to take up service slack.)

Ottawa, meanwhile, finds itself at major crossroads. Not only did Greyhound stop service in May 2020 — the pandemic cratered the market — but the central bus station on Catherine Street, opened in 1972, will no longer be used and, in fact, has been sold.

No bus service, no station. Now what?

The City of Ottawa has said it is in discussion with Greyhound about the possible use of an LRT hub, one that would combine light-rail, possibly transitway service and inter-city connections.

(About 10 years ago, the company was eyeing the VIA Rail train station on Tremblay Road, an option all the more attractive now because it has an LRT stop and is close to the southeast transitway.)

We do know there are millions at stake. The central station once had roughly 100 arrivals and departures daily — more on weekends — and a bustling parcel service. Buses departed hourly for Montreal, making it one of the busiest routes in Canada.

Terry Johnson is president of Transport Action Canada, a consumer advocacy group that has been following inter-city bus developments in Ontario.

What became clear at public hearings on deregulation, he said, was the vital nature of bus service to small communities: for students, for medical appointments, for anyone in a remote community trying to escape a dangerous situation, for tourism and family connections.

“(The Ministry of Transportation) wanted deregulation as a goal, but what they heard and what people asked for is service coverage. We don’t want just two big companies going head-to-head over (routes from) Toronto-Montreal,” he said this week.

“It is not clear that deregulation is going to magically fix this.”

When travel begins to resume, it is likely many smaller players will enter the market, using smaller buses in the 10-seat range that are cheaper to buy, maintain and operate and have less regulatory oversight. (Will Uber-style apps come into play, too?)

Johnson could only speculate as to what the service landscape would look like.

“I don’t know. Probably for the next year, we will be recovering from the pandemic. So companies that might ordinarily jump in with both feet will just put a toe in the water.”

Ontario Northland is among the players filling in the gaps. It has service west from Ottawa to places like North Bay, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie and even as far as Winnipeg. (It conveniently has stops at both CHEO and the General campus of The Ottawa Hospital.)

Four regional bus companies, meanwhile, are proposing a coast-to-coast bus “coalition” that would permit travel all the way across Canada. (Greyhound abandoned its western routes in 2018 and is not among the four proponents: The Wilson Group in Victoria; Pacific Western Group of Companies of Calgary; Kasper Transportation of Thunder Bay; and Coach Atlantic Maritime Bus of Halifax.)

They are calling on the federal government to establish a national regulatory board that would support a cross-Canada network with hub-and-spoke service at major cities. One of the first steps they’re seeking is a feasibility study costing roughly $150,000.

Greyhound, meanwhile, has been silent on its Ottawa plans.

Its last statement was in October, when it said it would announce “well in advance” the location of the new station in the capital.

There are those who worry that de-regulation will mean less oversight over the safe operation of buses, whether that be maintenance schedules, type of equipment and the training and licensing of drivers.

One imagines the outrage that will follow a serious accident caused by faulty equipment or an ill-suited driver. In June 2018, three Chinese tourists were killed when their tour bus slammed into a rocky embankment along Highway 401, injuring most of the 37 on board. There were questions raised about the competency of the driver, on the job for about a month.

Wherever the station, whoever the carriers, it does seem like a bumpy road ahead.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-291-6265 or email kegan@postmedia.com
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...egulated-world

[Truenorth00]

Move this article to the intercity bus terminal thread.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa's future inter-city bus service — more players in deregulated world?
The Ford government is dissolving the Ontario Highway Transport Board, which for decades controlled the entry of private companies into the inter-city bus market.

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Apr 04, 2021 • 2 hours ago • 3 minute read



On July 1, for the first time in a century, inter-city bus travel in Ontario will be deregulated and service options thrown wide open.

But, where rubber meets the road, nobody seems sure what this means for the travelling public.

The Ford government is dissolving the Ontario Highway Transport Board, a little-known arms-length organization that, for decades, controlled the entry of private companies into the inter-city bus market.

For better or worse, the old regulatory framework was the reason giants like Greyhound were able to dominate the more popular routes and could abandon less profitable ones that were still vital to smaller communities. (The board gave a licence holder the right to oppose new players trying to take up service slack.)

Ottawa, meanwhile, finds itself at major crossroads. Not only did Greyhound stop service in May 2020 — the pandemic cratered the market — but the central bus station on Catherine Street, opened in 1972, will no longer be used and, in fact, has been sold.

No bus service, no station. Now what?

The City of Ottawa has said it is in discussion with Greyhound about the possible use of an LRT hub, one that would combine light-rail, possibly transitway service and inter-city connections.

(About 10 years ago, the company was eyeing the VIA Rail train station on Tremblay Road, an option all the more attractive now because it has an LRT stop and is close to the southeast transitway.)

We do know there are millions at stake. The central station once had roughly 100 arrivals and departures daily — more on weekends — and a bustling parcel service. Buses departed hourly for Montreal, making it one of the busiest routes in Canada.

Terry Johnson is president of Transport Action Canada, a consumer advocacy group that has been following inter-city bus developments in Ontario.

What became clear at public hearings on deregulation, he said, was the vital nature of bus service to small communities: for students, for medical appointments, for anyone in a remote community trying to escape a dangerous situation, for tourism and family connections.

“(The Ministry of Transportation) wanted deregulation as a goal, but what they heard and what people asked for is service coverage. We don’t want just two big companies going head-to-head over (routes from) Toronto-Montreal,” he said this week.

“It is not clear that deregulation is going to magically fix this.”

When travel begins to resume, it is likely many smaller players will enter the market, using smaller buses in the 10-seat range that are cheaper to buy, maintain and operate and have less regulatory oversight. (Will Uber-style apps come into play, too?)

Johnson could only speculate as to what the service landscape would look like.

“I don’t know. Probably for the next year, we will be recovering from the pandemic. So companies that might ordinarily jump in with both feet will just put a toe in the water.”

Ontario Northland is among the players filling in the gaps. It has service west from Ottawa to places like North Bay, Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie and even as far as Winnipeg. (It conveniently has stops at both CHEO and the General campus of The Ottawa Hospital.)

Four regional bus companies, meanwhile, are proposing a coast-to-coast bus “coalition” that would permit travel all the way across Canada. (Greyhound abandoned its western routes in 2018 and is not among the four proponents: The Wilson Group in Victoria; Pacific Western Group of Companies of Calgary; Kasper Transportation of Thunder Bay; and Coach Atlantic Maritime Bus of Halifax.)

They are calling on the federal government to establish a national regulatory board that would support a cross-Canada network with hub-and-spoke service at major cities. One of the first steps they’re seeking is a feasibility study costing roughly $150,000.

Greyhound, meanwhile, has been silent on its Ottawa plans.

Its last statement was in October, when it said it would announce “well in advance” the location of the new station in the capital.

There are those who worry that de-regulation will mean less oversight over the safe operation of buses, whether that be maintenance schedules, type of equipment and the training and licensing of drivers.

One imagines the outrage that will follow a serious accident caused by faulty equipment or an ill-suited driver. In June 2018, three Chinese tourists were killed when their tour bus slammed into a rocky embankment along Highway 401, injuring most of the 37 on board. There were questions raised about the competency of the driver, on the job for about a month.

Wherever the station, whoever the carriers, it does seem like a bumpy road ahead.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-291-6265 or email kegan@postmedia.com
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...egulated-world

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Move this article to the intercity bus terminal thread.

I guess it could live there as well. It's more about the future of the industry than it is about any specific new Ottawa bus terminal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can't reduce "auto dependence" while facilitating living further and further from the core. That's a simple fact.

That is actually a fallacy. The best way to reduce "auto dependence" is to make communities more walkable, allowing people to buy there daily needs from stores that are within easy walking distance, while providing good transit options to there place of work, regardless where that is (hint, it may not be downtown). This can be just as easily implemented in a rural town as it can be in a huge metropolis, it just takes the political will. Fighting improvements to transit will only increase "auto dependence."

Here is an interesting video on grocery stores in Amsterdam. There is nothing to stop these small, community grocery stores from being built anywhere, not just in big cities.

• Video Link

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

I guess it could live there as well. It's more about the future of the industry than it is about any specific new Ottawa bus terminal.

Neither thread is quite right. As you say, the other is about Ottawa's bus terminal and this thread is about Regional Bus & Rail Transportation (not intercity bus transportation, like provided by Greyhound).

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is actually a fallacy. The best way to reduce "auto dependence" is to make communities more walkable, allowing people to buy there daily needs from stores that are within easy walking distance, while providing good transit options to there place of work, regardless where that is (hint, it may not be downtown). This can be just as easily implemented in a rural town as it can be in a huge metropolis, it just takes the political will. Fighting improvements to transit will only increase "auto dependence."

Here is an interesting video on grocery stores in Amsterdam. There is nothing to stop these small, community grocery stores from being built anywhere, not just in big cities.

A commuter system like "go transit" that is based around park and ride does in no way shape or form position itself for a 15 minute neighborhood. Those that move it there to use such a system will continue to use there car that they can use to get to transit for every other facet of life.

Because again unless this is teamed with some form of urban boundary in these communities and the stations do not have park & ride, the customer base for a "go transit" system are people looking for a specific type of house not just an "affordable home" as you seem to suggest. This type of home being SFH with large sq ft and lot. (Ex equinelle kemptville and etc)

Now I have no problem with someone buying such a home, and I am not suggesting they be banned.

But those that choose by there own volition to live very far from work should bear the cost of that choice and as for the city of Ottawa it should not try to push its supply problem onto the rural communities that surround it. A supply problem that has solutions that can be implemented in Ottawa such as the elimination of R1 zoning and other such intensification policies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is actually a fallacy. The best way to reduce "auto dependence" is to make communities more walkable, allowing people to buy there daily needs from stores that are within easy walking distance, while providing good transit options to there place of work, regardless where that is (hint, it may not be downtown). This can be just as easily implemented in a rural town as it can be in a huge metropolis, it just takes the political will. Fighting improvements to transit will only increase "auto dependence."

Here is an interesting video on grocery stores in Amsterdam. There is nothing to stop these small, community grocery stores from being built anywhere, not just in big cities.

• Video Link

Sure bud. Show me anywhere that such communities are actually being built outside the greenbelt, and I'll agree it's a fallacy.

Here in the real world, we think townhouses are density despite the fact that they come with driveways and garages, required to drive to the grocery store for that weekly trip.

Officially, we have a 15 min city policy now. In reality, it's tokenism when they put up a Mac's in your hood and count it as your grocery store.

It's also interesting how you pick and choose from Not Just Bikes, while ignoring the thrust of his message. What do you think he would say about the sprawl you're offering apologetics for? He literally made a video saying he moved to Amsterdam to avoid raising his kids in Canadian suburbia because he thought it was terrible for them:

• Video Link

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

A commuter system like "go transit" that is based around park and ride does in no way shape or form position itself for a 15 minute neighborhood. Those that move it there to use such a system will continue to use there car that they can use to get to transit for every other facet of life.

Who says it has to be to be like "go transit" and be "based around park and rides?" Have a look at the Netherlands. They have a great system of commuter rail and buses to small, rural, walkable communities. The key is in how we build those communities. The problem is that is that Toronto is the only city of reference many people on here have seen.

My only reference to GO transit was to point out the inequity that the province fully funds it, but does little to help greater Ottawa.