PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by 1487

Far better than what is there currently.

Ya, as Alan Greenberger pointed out, to the south is a block long blank wall of the US mint. Onramp to BF Bridge to the north and west. Not much going on even on eastern side, at least immediately across the street. Hard to ask for much from this lot unfortunately. Hopefully the several hundred people eventually living here will make nearby areas more dynamic and stimulate more high-quality development.

[MikeNigh]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Mediocrity marches on:

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/re...t_apartment_complex_at_4th_and_Race.html

I'm confused, what are people wanting here? More stories? Better materials?

[McBane]

Re the slots barn - I'm pretty shocked that meeting the city's zoning requirements was not part of the criteria for selecting a casino proposal. It's just plain stupidity on the state's part not to factor that in. If the city enforces this (admittedly dumb) open space requirement, it means that the winning proposal is not the proposal that will be built. Which means that the entire evaluation process was flawed. If one of the other South Philly proposals included a 100 story casino that could generate $100 million in revenue for the State, would the State had selected that proposal, even though zoning laws would never permit such a tall structure in South Philly? Sure seems like it.

It's truly mind boggling.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

Ya, as Alan Greenberger pointed out, to the south is a block long blank wall of the US mint. Onramp to BF Bridge to the north and west. Not much going on even on eastern side, at least immediately across the street. Hard to ask for much from this lot unfortunately. Hopefully the several hundred people eventually living here will make nearby areas more dynamic and stimulate more high-quality development.

The US Mint is like the Great Wall of China. Lacking windows and any street activity, it pretty much flouts every rule of good urban design. It needs to relocate to an industrial park so we can have our city block back.

I wonder if this might ever be a possibility?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

I'm confused, what are people wanting here? More stories? Better materials?

Yes. And not suburban garden apartments.

Hard to imagine any city worth its salt enabling such a development in such a location. This is the absolute lowest denominator design. The one that says: we have no belief, vision, or expectations for this site. We just want to make some nice cash flow with minimal cost.

This or a surface lot or the existing building - interchangeable and identical in terms of street impact.

What I don't get is why this needs a height variance . . . is this the one case where the planned building is shorter than required? I mean, we'll be able to stand on our heads on the sidewalk and still see over the roof.

The zoning must have been written by lobotomy recipients if a 4-story building at 5th & Race needs a height variance.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by 1487

Far better than what is there currently.

From awful to mediocre is progress, but a missed opportunity at the same time.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

I'm confused, what are people wanting here? More stories? Better materials?

Better materials and better engagement with the street. It's not an optimal spot, but it is within sight of the Mall.

[apetrella802]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

The US Mint is like the Great Wall of China. Lacking windows and any street activity, it pretty much flouts every rule of good urban design. It needs to relocate to an industrial park so we can have our city block back.

I wonder if this might ever be a possibility?

I don't think a mint is supposed to have many ways of access, it has large amounts of silver, nickel, and other metals. The coins themselves are to be protected like a bank.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by apetrella802

I don't think a mint is supposed to have many ways of access, it has large amounts of silver, nickel, and other metals. The coins themselves are to be protected like a bank.

Right. Thus the point that it ought to be in an industrial park, not Old City.

Times were different in the 1950s, but the time has come for it to move.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Right. Thus the point that it ought to be in an industrial park, not Old City.

It's also a public and educational attraction. I loved making visits there when I was a kid. I don't think they'd see much action in an industrial park. We all know that mid-century brutalist designs leave much to be desired. The problem is execution (like the Federal Courthouse monolith), more than location. There was great dismay when the Federal Detention Center was announced for 7th & Arch. They actually pulled off a high-security building very well there.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

It's also a public and educational attraction. I loved making visits there when I was a kid. I don't think they'd see much action in an industrial park. We all know that mid-century brutalist designs leave much to be desired. The problem is execution (like the Federal Courthouse monolith), more than location. There was great dismay when the Federal Detention Center was announced for 7th & Arch. They actually pulled off a high-security building very well there.

Agreed on all counts. But this is beyond mid-century brutalism. It's a single-story factory. An idiotic use for a downtown lot. It just really doesn't work at that location.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Agreed on all counts. But this is beyond mid-century brutalism. It's a single-story factory. An idiotic use for a downtown lot. It just really doesn't work at that location.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's not like it makes widgets. It makes little kids' lunch money. It's a special case. That said, although I don't want to turn Philadelphia into Houston, I sometimes we can go too far in segregating activities within a city. A reasonable mixture of activities enhances, rather than detracts from the local fabric. All play and no work makes for a dull city. There's always room for another residential bloc and corner cafe. I for one and glad there's some business going on here (even if it's government sponsored). My beef here is that new residential bloc will look cheap and appears to have little going for it at street level.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Yes. And not suburban garden apartments.

Hard to imagine any city worth its salt enabling such a development in such a location. This is the absolute lowest denominator design. The one that says: we have no belief, vision, or expectations for this site. We just want to make some nice cash flow with minimal cost.

This or a surface lot or the existing building - interchangeable and identical in terms of street impact.

What I don't get is why this needs a height variance . . . is this the one case where the planned building is shorter than required? I mean, we'll be able to stand on our heads on the sidewalk and still see over the roof.

The zoning must have been written by lobotomy recipients if a 4-story building at 5th & Race needs a height variance.

enabling? Someone brought the property and wants to build apts there. They need some approvals, but this isnt the city "enabling" anything- its the market at work. If it was a suburban apt building it would be surrounded by 300 parking spaces and 20 acres of useless lawn. There is nothing suburban about the project aside from the fact that its only 4 or 5 floors.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

From awful to mediocre is progress, but a missed opportunity at the same time.

But you are OK with the warehouse? NOt sure what part of this project is a downgrade over a brick warehouse that does nothing to enliven the block.

[Larry King]

Wasnt someone proposing a hotel at that site a few years back? Shame that didnt go

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

The US Mint is like the Great Wall of China. Lacking windows and any street activity, it pretty much flouts every rule of good urban design. It needs to relocate to an industrial park so we can have our city block back.

I wonder if this might ever be a possibility?

It would have to be in a touristy spot as it is a high visitor traffic spot.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

I'm confused, what are people wanting here? More stories? Better materials?

Originally Posted by Larry King

Wasnt someone proposing a hotel at that site a few years back? Shame that didnt go

There were two really nice designs from ~2012/2013 timeframe which are much nicer than this design. Shame they didn't go through and this might.





Compared to:

[RonnieStevens]

The second hotel design looks sweet. kinda looks like it shares design elements with the Bridge development up the street. Woulda been nice...

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by 1487

enabling?

Enabling in the sense that, as discussed elsewhere, the City doesn't have minimum design standards regarding materials, street engagement, density. A shame, we ought to, but we can't for political reasons - because most Philadelphians don't actually care about materials and street engagement, and fear density.

Frustrating in the sense that ambitious projects are put through the wringer in order to get approval, while low end garbage like this slides through with minimal hassle. Our community standards and inputs seem only to be imposed on large exciting projects, but not low end underachieving provisional crap like this.

There's something deeply perverse about a zoning/planning regime that makes garbage design the uncontested norm and penalizes quality.

These developers . . . stupefyingly lame. Just trash.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by 1487

But you are OK with the warehouse? NOt sure what part of this project is a downgrade over a brick warehouse that does nothing to enliven the block.

Six of one one half dozen of the other.