Gore Park

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by emge

But downtown... who do businesses want? Who has the money to spend, and who do they want to attract? The rich ones, (unless you own a Tim Hortons or a Money Mart, perhaps) (Attracting artists and those who bring a positive impact without necessarily spending money is a bit of a different issue). The term "dilution" was used here. If you want revitalization, the proportions of people downtown cannot and will not stay the same.

.

this entire post was great, but this point is key.
The business district downtown and business leaders have been the primary ones holding back the true potential of downtown Hamilton.
They are addicted to their one-way freeways with timed lights, skinny sidewalks and transport truck air-brakes.
Someday I hope we'll get a decent leadership team downtown instead of some hick from Caledonia and old stooges who think Hamilton is the cats meow because we have one-way freeways tearing through the core.
THAT is the number one problem downtown, BY FAR.

[HackD]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

.. because we have one-way freeways tearing through the core.
THAT is the number one problem downtown, BY FAR.

But i do so like what they've done with King St In the past few days between Dundern and James St with the resurfacing - especially yesterday - stripping all 4 (5?) lanes at once down 2" around the manhole covers and marked them with flourescent paint... it certainly brings the speeds down and induces some rolling traffic hilarity while everyone plays dodge-em, I found it especially fun with my vehicle, which has about that 2" ground clearance!

They missed a few of them covers with the flourescent paint, too.

They repaved a few of the lanes last night i think, but predictably, i chose the wrong side of the road when i got on King today.

/sarcasm off
/thread jack off

[MsMe]

I don't go that way often but do need to make another trip to Dundas again soon. I hope they have more lanes open by then or I will be taking a different route. They shouldn't have closed so many lanes at one time.

[adam]

A while back somebody mentioned that there are over 30 lanes of traffic going east and west across the city. A quick look at a map confirms this. Plenty of options for all those single-occupancy vehicles. Of course it will be hard to go 20km above the speed limit like as per usual, but I'm sure people will manage just fine with a few minutes of inconvenient speeds.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I apologize for my mistake.
According to that graph Toronto had the same number of violent gun-related crimes in 2006 as Hamilton would have in 9 years.
The number of people affected in TO in 1 year is the same as would be affected in Hamilton in 20 years.
You can go and enjoy that...I'll stay here and enjoy "spare some change?"

Why are you bringing this up? We are talking about sketchy people in Hamilton's downtown, not about poverty or murders.

Yes, we ALL agree there are much worse places than Hamilton - in Canada and the rest of the world. Yes, MOST of us agree that downtown Hamilton really isn't THAT bad. But we are not comparing Hamilton to anywhere else. We are looking at it independently and talking about why it is in the state it's in, and what measures can be taken to rectify it. Stop talking about Toronto, Oakville, Burlington or Mexico.

People downtown are sketchy. No number of murders in Toronto will change that. I would also rather be panhandled than shot, but I'll tell you something else: I would rather be left alone than panhandled. So lets talk about how we can make downtown even better, rather than constantly comparing it to other (irrelevant) cities.

Whether the sketchies are the cause of Downtown's state, or just a consequence, downtown would be better off without them. There is no disputing this statement.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by crhayes

Why are you bringing this up? We are talking about sketchy people in Hamilton's downtown, not about poverty or murders.

Yes, we ALL agree there are much worse places than Hamilton - in Canada and the rest of the world. Yes, MOST of us agree that downtown Hamilton really isn't THAT bad. But we are not comparing Hamilton to anywhere else. We are looking at it independently and talking about why it is in the state it's in, and what measures can be taken to rectify it. Stop talking about Toronto, Oakville, Burlington or Mexico.

People downtown are sketchy. No number of murders in Toronto will change that. I would also rather be panhandled than shot, but I'll tell you something else: I would rather be left alone than panhandled. So lets talk about how we can make downtown even better, rather than constantly comparing it to other (irrelevant) cities.

Whether the sketchies are the cause of Downtown's state, or just a consequence, downtown would be better off without them. There is no disputing this statement.

I think you've missed some posts in this discussion...some writers are making comments about how it IS worse than in other cities. If people are going to say that, then expect comparisons to other cities.
You can't call it worse than other cities and then tell people to not compare to other cities.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I think you've missed some posts in this discussion...some writers are making comments about how it IS worse than in other cities. If people are going to say that, then expect comparisons to other cities.
You can't call it worse than other cities and then tell people to not compare to other cities.

But you can end it by saying, "That's nice for <city name>, now lets talk about downtown Hamilton in a setting all of it's own."

crhayes, great points and I couldn't agree more. I don't care what sketch exists in Bogota, Veracruz, Vancouver, Toronto or anywhere else. I haven't chosen to plant my roots in any of those places, I've chosen Hamilton. As such, I only care what I have to deal with in Hamilton on a daily, weekly basis.

Are those that hang out in Gore Park a positive or a negative on the city of Hamilton? I'd say a negative, and anyone who says a positive is entitled to their point-of-view. But those who say it's a positive should think about why major retail business won't settle in downtown Hamilton.

I'm confident, one afternoon in Gore Park will send them back to headquarters with suburbs or Burlington in their notes and on their lips.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

But you can end it by saying, "That's nice for <city name>, now lets talk about downtown Hamilton in a setting all of it's own."

crhayes, great points and I couldn't agree more. I don't care what sketch exists in Bogota, Veracruz, Vancouver, Toronto or anywhere else. I haven't chosen to plant my roots in any of those places, I've chosen Hamilton. As such, I only care what I have to deal with in Hamilton on a daily, weekly basis.

Are those that hang out in Gore Park a positive or a negative on the city of Hamilton? I'd say a negative, and anyone who says a positive is entitled to their point-of-view. But those who say it's a positive should think about why major retail business won't settle in downtown Hamilton.

I'm confident, one afternoon in Gore Park will send them back to headquarters with suburbs or Burlington in their notes and on their lips.

You'll be happy to know that I spent an afternoon in the Gore last week and had a great time.
the weather was great, a musician was doing his thing, people were everywhere enjoying the sun.
It's the best spot in the entire city, hands down. Let's work to improve it and lure a few retailers into the area without ruining what makes it great - a people place to hang out, see and be seen.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

You'll be happy to know that I spent an afternoon in the Gore last week and had a great time.
the weather was great, a musician was doing his thing, people were everywhere enjoying the sun.
It's the best spot in the entire city, hands down. Let's work to improve it and lure a few retailers into the area without ruining what makes it great - a people place to hang out, see and be seen.

Yes that is true. I also think we need to get rid of the kid that preaches to everyone - he is scary LOL.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by crhayes

Of course the City is going to have bums and homeless people, but we are saying get them the @&$% out of Gore Park.

In other words, sweep them under the rug.

Originally Posted by crhayes

Gore Park is never going to be the 'Social Center' of the city as long as the low lives of Hamilton are congregating there.

"Low lives"? You do know they're human beings, right? As my grandmother used to say, "There but for the grace of God go you and I."

Originally Posted by crhayes

Get them to return to Barton Street or Concession street

Concession Street is actually quite a hip urban centre - arguably the only such destination on the Mountain.

Originally Posted by crhayes

For every sketchy person on the street in Toronto, at least you have about 20 normal people walking around shopping and contributing to society. It isn't like that in Gore Park.

You seem to have drawn exactly the wrong conclusion in your contrast between Toronto and Hamilton.

If Toronto has more "sketchy" people (really compassionate pejorative, by the way) but still more "normal" people, it follows that the solution isn't so much to get rid, somehow, of the "sketchy" people but rather to figure out how to draw still more "normal" people.

After all, the "sketchy" people in Toronto haven't scared off the "normal" people - far from it. The only reason the "sketchy" people in Gore Park are particularly noticeable today is that they aren't surrounded by gobs of "normal" people going about their business.

Summary: the presence of "sketchy" people isn't the real problem; it's merely the predictable symptom of an urban strategy that for decades has drained investment out of the downtown and decanted citizens to the suburbs.

Figure out how to get money and people flowing back into downtown, and two things will happen:

1. The same absolute number of "sketchy" people will comprise a much smaller share of the total and, hence, a much less intimidating presence; and

2. The absolute increase in investment, innovation and opportunity will draw some of those people out of poverty and into gainful employment, especially if the revitalization is undertaken in such a way as to provide paths out of poverty and avoid ghettoizing poor people in undesirable conglomerates.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

My extent of my travels honestly involve - My home in West Mountain, Mohawk College, and Gore Park.

I find there's a strong inverse correlation between how well people know downtown and how intensely they dislike it.

The most vitriolic letters to the editor in the city's daily paper are from people living on the Mountain or in the suburbs who haven't been downtown in a decade but feel qualified to pronounce on its status and prospects.

There was quite an outpouring of animosity during the summer's one-way, two-way debate, with most of the opposition coming from people who profess never to go downtown, but who really won't go downtown if they have to sit in traffic to do it.

[FairHamilton]

Came across this on Bob Bratina's website and thought it would be of interest on this thread.

Originally Posted by http://bobbratina.ca/

I was interviewed at some length for the Spectator article regarding Gore Park.( The gussying up of Gore Park), and made some strong statements about how I feel we need to deal with the social problems in and around the area. Since these comments weren't printed I'd like residents to know that this is a significant concern for me and all stakeholders...businesses, residents, workers, visitors, etc. What is needed is commitment from City Council and staff to solve this problem. Rather than seeing fewer disruptive individuals in the Core, we're actually seeing more. Aggressive panhandling has become increasingly dangerous, with some restaurant owners telling of individuals walking into their premises, demanding food from patrons, and damaging property if they're rebuffed, such as kicking out door glass. We need to ensure that the responsible officers have enough resources to do the job, and give whatever it takes to bring these behaviours to an acceptable level. Senior Management has to ensure that every department takes into consideration the health of our Downtown Core as it relates to their departments and responsibilities. . No one believes that Hamilton will ever achieve its full potential with the issues that continue to plague the Downtown, despite excellent efforts by many of our employees. We have some great success stories with regard to development, increasing population and growth potential through transit. The work will not be done until residents can feel comfortable coming Downtown at any time of day or night, and actually begin to take pride in their City to the point of bragging about it to others.

[raisethehammer]

some 'restaurant owner' is full of crap. We would have heard about it as a top story in all local media if homeless people were going into restaurants full of people, demanding food and money and kicking in the front window when turned away.
Get real.
Like you always tell everyone - don't believe everything you read.

[SteelTown]

Inspired by a visionary Dane, communities around the world are reacquainting their citizens with the joys of walking and cycling. Can cities in climate-challenged Canada get off car-free as well?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../TPStory/Focus

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Inspired by a visionary Dane, communities around the world are reacquainting their citizens with the joys of walking and cycling. Can cities in climate-challenged Canada get off car-free as well?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../TPStory/Focus

great story....this is what the south leg of the Gore needs.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

some 'restaurant owner' is full of crap. We would have heard about it as a top story in all local media if homeless people were going into restaurants full of people, demanding food and money and kicking in the front window when turned away.
Get real.
Like you always tell everyone - don't believe everything you read.

I don't believe everything I read, but I always look at the source to gauge credibility. I'd direct your 'get real' towards Bob, he's a casual poster to this forum.

[adam]

One incident certainly doesn't mean its an escalating problem.

[raisethehammer]

you don't need to direct any of my comments towards specific posters.
Unless you're looking to simply stir up trouble. I didn't say a thing towards Bob.
My comment simply stated that we would have heard by now if homeless people were barging into restaurants and kicking in windows. Perhaps it happened once in the past 5 years, or 15 years?? maybe never? the point is, I dine exclusively downtown and can't remember ever being panhandled at the front door of a restaurant, let alone inside.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

you don't need to direct any of my comments towards specific posters.
Unless you're looking to simply stir up trouble. I didn't say a thing towards Bob.
My comment simply stated that we would have heard by now if homeless people were barging into restaurants and kicking in windows. Perhaps it happened once in the past 5 years, or 15 years?? maybe never? the point is, I dine exclusively downtown and can't remember ever being panhandled at the front door of a restaurant, let alone inside.

Ah, you told me to "get real" for something Bob wrote on his website (fully credited in my post). No need to tell me to "get real" tell it to the person who wrote it.

And what trouble am I stirring up, and with whom??

I've never seen an atom split, but they tell me they can do it............

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by FairHamilton

Ah, you told me to "get real" for something Bob wrote on his website (fully credited in my post). No need to tell me to "get real" tell it to the person who wrote it.

And what trouble am I stirring up, and with whom??

I've never seen an atom split, but they tell me they can do it............

raisethehammer chooses to believe things only when they support his point. I am beginning to think that he is just another one of the people that we are pointing out. Goodness knows that his logic and thought processes can be pretty sketchy.