Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wouldn't say it's a matter of shame, but it is weird. One wonders why he'd choose Quebec City as his destination?

He’d likely be happier in Ottawa or Toronto.

His fixed costs (rent or mortgage for his commercial place) are going to be significantly lower in Quebec but the downsides seem overwhelming to him, so… his choice.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Cause it's darn purty...

For a restaurant, it’s a good choice: it’s probably the place that’s got the best ratio prices-you-can-ask-for-food vs costs-of-the-square-feet-from-which-you’re-selling-it.

[lio45]

Aaaand... to follow up on my post above... it turns out the Korean guy has good business sense (or at least, shares my view)

CBC reported today that he somehow managed to find French-speaking employees. Huh. Look at that. Quand on veut, on peut!

(i.e. "When there's a will, there's a way" for Mr Korean Dude in Quebec City )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Aaaand... to follow up on my post above... it turns out the Korean guy has good business sense (or at least, shares my view)

CBC reported today that he somehow managed to find French-speaking employees. Huh. Look at that. Quand on veut, on peut!

(i.e. "When there's a will, there's a way" for Mr Korean Dude in Quebec City )

In metro area with 800,000 francophones, he can find French-speaking employees!

Whoda thunk it?

[MolsonExport]

Wow, so Quebec city is like most other large cities in Canada, in that it has some ethnic restaurants that employ people that have challenges speaking the official language?

Quelle horreur!

Thank god for the tongue troopers.

[lio45]

The guy actually got a bit of a break, he operated "illegally" (actually those quotation marks aren't even needed...) for months. I think that's very fair. Business-wise, it's easier if you can use your own family... at first, at least. He got to do that for a while. And now his business is in decent-enough shape that when faced with the binary choice between closing it (the scenario where it turns out the business can't be both legal and commercially viable) or starting to follow the law, he picked the latter.

It's a slippery slope though -- you just can't let people like him break the laws forever. For obvious reasons.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Wow, so Quebec city is like most other large cities in Canada, in that it has some ethnic restaurants that employ people that have challenges speaking the official language?

Quelle horreur!

Thank god for the tongue troopers.

If they had only spoken Korean and served their customers through finger-pointing at things combined with extremely rudimentary French, the story would have been different.

Instead, they were obviously integrating into the steamroller culture, the Quebec-killing one. THAT is kind of a problem, yes. (Which now got fixed, in their case )

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

If they had only spoken Korean and served their customers through finger-pointing at things combined with extremely rudimentary French, the story would have been different.

Instead, they were obviously integrating into the steamroller culture, the Quebec-killing one. THAT is kind of a problem, yes. (Which now got fixed, in their case )

Maybe you should only write in French on this site. After all, writing in that Quebec-killing language is just the biggest betrayal.

My native language is the Quebec-killing one, as was my father's, his father's, his father's father, his father's father's father, and his father's fathers' father's father (all Quebec natives). I am thus an enemy of Quebec, I suppose.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Maybe you should only write in French on this site. After all, writing in that Quebec-killing language is just the biggest betrayal.

This is an international site and I'm writing in the world's lingua franca, the one all users here use as their communication medium. (Note that whenever participating in the Quebec subforum, I'll always post in the same language as everyone else over there. )

My native language is the Quebec-killing one, as was my father's, his father's, his father's father, his father's father's father, and his father's fathers' father's father (all Quebec natives). I am thus an enemy of Quebec, I suppose.

In a certain sense, the answer is an unavoidable yes.

There are degrees too, obviously. You clearly wouldn't register as much of an "enemy", on a scale where Russians are "enemies" of Ukraine, for example.

[JHikka]

Tired of this thread piling-on the Korean, so to change subject:

Quebec - 'Do you consider yourself a Canadian or Quebecer first?'

All:
Quebecer: 52%
Canadian: 44%

Quebecer First Among (X) Voters:
PQ: 86%
CAQ: 60%
QS: 52%
PCQ: 37%
PLQ: 14%

Research Co / October 4, 2022 / n=500 / Online

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

This is an international site and I'm writing in the world's lingua franca, the one all users here use as their communication medium. (Note that whenever participating in the Quebec subforum, I'll always post in the same language as everyone else over there. )



In a certain sense, the answer is an unavoidable yes.

There are degrees too, obviously. You clearly wouldn't register as much of an "enemy", on a scale where Russians are "enemies" of Ukraine, for example.

Just to be clear, I am an enemy of Quebec (not as much as Russians vis-a-vis Ukraine), simply because of my mother tongue?

Wow.



Nous et eux.

[Acajack]

A bit surprised that it had to be pointed out that the language dynamics of any large ROC city cannot simply be mapped onto Quebec with a "hey man, what's the big deal?"

[MolsonExport]

Recall that Jacques Parizeau, a committed separatist, told Time magazine in 1992, "By God, I'll boot the rear end of anyone who can't speak English. In our day and times, a small people like us must speak English."

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A bit surprised that it had to be pointed out that the language dynamics of any large ROC city cannot simply be mapped onto Quebec with a "hey man, what's the big deal?"

Funny how that is the issue that you cling to, rather than the Nous et eux depiction of English speakers as "enemies" of Quebec. One Korean guy in a big city that is 97.9% French speaking mother tongue.


Carry on.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Funny how that is the issue that you cling to, rather than the Nous et eux depiction of English speakers as "enemies" of Quebec. One Korean guy in a big city that is 97.9% French speaking mother tongue.


Carry on.

You and Lio are big enough boys to settle your own matters without me.

As for the English language, yes it is an existential threat for Quebec and the French language in Canada in general.

As for any anglophone being automatically an "enemy" as a result, that depends on the circumstance and their behaviour.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Funny how that is the issue that you cling to, rather than the Nous et eux depiction of English speakers as "enemies" of Quebec. One Korean guy in a big city that is 97.9% French speaking mother tongue.


Carry on.

The issue isn't at all that he's Korean.

Michael Rousseau, white male Canadian CEO of Air Canada, French Canadian origins - same issue.

[le calmar]

Well it looks like things took an unexpected turn for the Korean restaurant owner. The demand has apparently been phenomenal since their story was covered by the media and people are just willing to support them, save for a few rotten apples.

[MolsonExport]

Korean food is so very tasty. You don't want to lose a good Korean restaurant (there are plenty of shitty ones, usually run by non-Koreans [Chinese primarily], but the good ones are divine).

I feel profoundly attached to Quebec and its people/culture, even though I am an Anglophone. I am a very strong supporter of the French fact, and to bastardize a quote by J. Parizeau, "I would kick the butt of any Anglo that refuses to learn French!" But when you have thousands of new settlers coming in from the four corners of the globe, you are always going to have language challenges. The fact that French is a minority language in the greater Canadian reality does not change this. Just visit Chinatown in New York, or Vancouver, or Toronto, and you will encounter scores of citizens that are bereft of English speaking skills. French, I would submit, is a more difficult language to learn in a rudimentary sense (than English) for immigrants who are not from the Francophonie world, because, as was alluded to, English is the sole global language, and is the most prevalent lingua franca for commerce, media, etc. That means that English is picked up, at least bits and pieces thereof, by people around the world, and serves as a base, whereas French, outside of the Francophonie, not so much.

absolutely, newcomers to Quebec must learn French. But fer crissakes, take it easy on them, and give them some time. Ostracizing them only reinforces the view that they are not a part of the family of peoples that make up modern Quebec. And stop pillorying English speakers. It is not our fault that the global language has become English, which is the the result of the success of British colonialism (not the same as praising it), and moreover, America's size and hegemony. Anglo Quebeckers are a very important part of Quebec and its history. Especially with respect to Montreal, my beloved hometown.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Just to be clear, I am an enemy of Quebec (not as much as Russians vis-a-vis Ukraine), simply because of my mother tongue?

Wow.

In a certain sense, yes. And I am sure you're getting it. Nothing against you personally.

On my dad's side, I have a bit of quasi-Belgian ancestry. If I moved to Brussels' northern suburbs, with my unilingual francophone gf, and we settled there and proceeded to give birth to a bunch of unilingual francophone kids, I would not be offended at being considered "an enemy" (in a certain sense) by the Flemish. On the contrary, I'd be intelligent enough to realize that they have a point, it's a cold hard fact.

Despite loving Flanders (which I've visited, and adore. Culturally, architecturally, etc.)



That said, I should probably point out that these discussions always feel strange to me because I've always had a relatively easy time with languages and I would never move somewhere without having a great motivation to become fluent in the local language ASAP. So, I'll just never be in that situation myself and could not ever conceive myself in it.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The issue isn't at all that he's Korean.

Michael Rousseau, white male Canadian CEO of Air Canada, French Canadian origins - same issue.

I'd go further, it's much WORSE for Rousseau than for a fresh-off-the-plane Korean. At least the Koreans have a good excuse, they just arrived here. The demands on them are moderate (basically "if you want to stay here, then you'll aim to integrate into Franco society not Anglo society; otherwise you can move to the GTA, no problem for us").