TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Lets look at The TCH outside of Ontario.

MB is complete
SK is complete
AB is complete
NB is complete

BC, QC, PEI, NS and NL are all not fully 4 lane highways.

Ontario may have the greatest chunk, but NL is not far behind. BC has the issue with building on the mountains.

QC will be fully completed within a few years.

PEI will likely never be twinned.

NS, will likely take several decades.

Name me another country in the world with a 4 lane divided highway that stretches more than 7500 km long, and has a population density of less than 4 people per square km.

The fact is, the upgrading is based on city AADT. It is not based on actual need.

basically, yes.

Australia is very similar, except their east-west roads are even less up to speed.

[MolsonExport]

New Brunswick has a lot of twined highways, but the economy does not seem to be benefiting much.

[Doady]

The article I linked did mentioned increased freight truck traffic on the highways due to the loss of railways, and many of the collisions there involved freight trucks. So I think there are economic case for twinning, if not to encouraging new economic activity then at least to better facilitate existing economic activity.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Doady

The article I linked did mentioned increased freight truck traffic on the highways due to the loss of railways, and many of the collisions there involved freight trucks. So I think there are economic case for twinning, if not to encouraging new economic activity then at least to better facilitate existing economic activity.

That is really not the issue in Northern Ontario. In NS, most of their rail lines are gone. Many cities and towns no longer are connected by rail. The same cannot be said for Northern Ontario.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is really not the issue in Northern Ontario. In NS, most of their rail lines are gone. Many cities and towns no longer are connected by rail. The same cannot be said for Northern Ontario.

But it can be said about Upper Ottawa Valley from Matawa to Ottawa.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

But it can be said about Upper Ottawa Valley from Matawa to Ottawa.

.... sadly. However, that is not the worst part of our highways.

[Loco101]

The biggest issue for highways in Northern Ontario is head-on collisions with transport trucks. I know that four-laning a highway won't make our economy boom. But it would be good for Canada as a whole and should be getting federal funding.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The biggest issue for highways in Northern Ontario is head-on collisions with transport trucks. I know that four-laning a highway won't make our economy boom. But it would be good for Canada as a whole and should be getting federal funding.

First one, if traffic and other factors (such as alternative routes) really don't warrant twinning, MTO should just put barriers between the 2 lanes so people can only pass at passing lanes. Also, we should have a rule where, if there are 4 or more cars behind you and you are only going 105 kph max, you have to move over or else cops can ticket you for holding up traffic.

Second one, while twinning TCH in NB did not improve economy there (I'm aware that a study suggested that widening highways doesn't necessarily bring opportunities), doing so in Northern Ontario may be a different story because in this case we're bringing back the cross-country traffic from the states. As swimmer_spe said, currently it's 2500 on 17 and 2500 on 11. If 17 (or 11) is twinned, I dare say we will be looking at 10 000 on the twinned highway. Also, who knows, perhaps Port Algoma will get busier.

Third one, lolol I think Ontario (and Quebec) have bullied other provinces too much to deserve federal funding, unfortunately.

[sonysnob]

You're not going to "bring back" much traffic by twinning either Highway 11 and 17. There may be a small increase in traffic, perhaps in the order of a few hundred extra cars per day during peak travel times in the summer, but nothing that's going to have any real measurable economic impact to the communities that the Trans-Canada passes through, and certainly not enough economic impact to justify the expense of highway twinning.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

You're not going to "bring back" much traffic by twinning either Highway 11 and 17. There may be a small increase in traffic, perhaps in the order of a few hundred extra cars per day during peak travel times in the summer, but nothing that's going to have any real measurable economic impact to the communities that the Trans-Canada passes through, and certainly not enough economic impact to justify the expense of highway twinning.

I guess the 4-lane divided freeway will only go from Whiteshell to Dinorwic (a suburb of Dryden) (or to Ignace if we wanna be generous), from Shabaqua Corner to east side of Nipigon River, and finally from SSM to Arnprior then. In the long term, too.

As for the rest, we just barricade the 2 lanes and make passing lanes here and there.
With 2.5 meters of shoulder, 3.7 meters of lane, and 1 meters of lane separation (82 cm for Ontario tall wall, and 9 cm each direction), we only need (2.5 + 3.7) * 2 + 1 = 13.4 meters for width, and most part of 17's already wider than that.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

You're not going to "bring back" much traffic by twinning either Highway 11 and 17. There may be a small increase in traffic, perhaps in the order of a few hundred extra cars per day during peak travel times in the summer, but nothing that's going to have any real measurable economic impact to the communities that the Trans-Canada passes through, and certainly not enough economic impact to justify the expense of highway twinning.

A twinning project cannot just be based on number of cars. There are other factors at play in the region.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A twinning project cannot just be based on number of cars. There are other factors at play in the region.

Like what? (I’m playing devil’s advocate right now.)
If the risk of head-on collision is high, an easy solution will be an Ontario tall-wall separating the 2 lanes such that passing opportunities are strictly at passing lanes.

Also here’s my 2 cents on AADT: If it’s below 6K but if further investigations reveal that there are at least 2880 trucks using the highway per day, twinning should also be considered. 2880 trucks per day = 1 truck every minute per direction. Can you imagine cruising down TCH just to meet trucks every 1.5 km?

IMO an ideal plan will be like this: start designing when there are 2304 trucks per day, secure funding when there are 2592, then actually twin the highway when the number hits 2880.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

First one, if traffic and other factors (such as alternative routes) really don't warrant twinning, MTO should just put barriers between the 2 lanes so people can only pass at passing lanes. Also, we should have a rule where, if there are 4 or more cars behind you and you are only going 105 kph max, you have to move over or else cops can ticket you for holding up traffic.

Second one, while twinning TCH in NB did not improve economy there (I'm aware that a study suggested that widening highways doesn't necessarily bring opportunities), doing so in Northern Ontario may be a different story because in this case we're bringing back the cross-country traffic from the states. As swimmer_spe said, currently it's 2500 on 17 and 2500 on 11. If 17 (or 11) is twinned, I dare say we will be looking at 10 000 on the twinned highway. Also, who knows, perhaps Port Algoma will get busier.

Third one, lolol I think Ontario (and Quebec) have bullied other provinces too much to deserve federal funding, unfortunately.

Ontario has bullied Northern Ontario more than anywhere else.

[Doady]

I would say the biggest and more blatant attack by the province on anywhere would the Mike Harris government's massive cuts to social housing and transit funding which the City of Toronto bore the brunt of. Mike Harris is from Northern Ontario.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Doady

I would say the biggest and more blatant attack by the province on anywhere would the Mike Harris government's massive cuts to social housing and transit funding which the City of Toronto bore the brunt of. Mike Harris is from Northern Ontario.

Even the north disliked him as a premier though. It was a bummer to hear that he killed the project to build that interchange between Thunder Bay Expressway and Dawson Road (Red River Road). (Well, there were many other dumb things that he did.)

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Like what? (I’m playing devil’s advocate right now.)
If the risk of head-on collision is high, an easy solution will be an Ontario tall-wall separating the 2 lanes such that passing opportunities are strictly at passing lanes.

Also here’s my 2 cents on AADT: If it’s below 6K but if further investigations reveal that there are at least 2880 trucks using the highway per day, twinning should also be considered. 2880 trucks per day = 1 truck every minute per direction. Can you imagine cruising down TCH just to meet trucks every 1.5 km?

IMO an ideal plan will be like this: start designing when there are 2304 trucks per day, secure funding when there are 2592, then actually twin the highway when the number hits 2880.

That assumes that almost 50% of the traffic on a given stretch of highway with an AADT of 6,000 are trucks. That's an unrealistic assumption.

I don't have quick access to the percentage of commercial traffic along sections of the TCH in northern Ontario, but from looking at studies for the Highway 69 twinning, the percentage of commercial vehicles is much more in the range of 10-20% of total traffic. So that would mean, approximately 600-1200 trucks per day. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable estimate for other sections of the TCH.

See for yourself, page 3-1:

http://highway69.ca/highway69/559toshawa...0Transportation%20Needs%20Assessment.pdf

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Video of some recently twinned sections of the Trans-Canada Highway:

• Video Link

I found a crazier version: https://www.youtube.com.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Doady

I would say the biggest and more blatant attack by the province on anywhere would the Mike Harris government's massive cuts to social housing and transit funding which the City of Toronto bore the brunt of. Mike Harris is from Northern Ontario.

No he hurt Northern Ontario much more in so many ways with the exception of North Bay, his hometown. The downloading to municipalities is still hurting us today. His government made more cuts to Northern Ontario per capita than elsewhere in the province. With the exception of Nipissing, the PCs didn't win any seats here and Harris remains someone who makes most of us angry.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

No he hurt Northern Ontario much more in so many ways with the exception of North Bay, his hometown. The downloading to municipalities is still hurting us today. His government made more cuts to Northern Ontario per capita than elsewhere in the province. With the exception of Nipissing, the PCs didn't win any seats here and Harris remains someone who makes most of us angry.

He made the largest city in Northern Ontario by area.... and it is larger in area than the entire GTA!!

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Loco101

No he hurt Northern Ontario much more in so many ways with the exception of North Bay, his hometown. The downloading to municipalities is still hurting us today. His government made more cuts to Northern Ontario per capita than elsewhere in the province. With the exception of Nipissing, the PCs didn't win any seats here and Harris remains someone who makes most of us angry.

And you think downloading onto municipalities didn't hurt the rest of Ontario?

That's why can't take you people seriously. Even with under Northern Ontario premier with an anti-urban agenda, somehow it was the less urban Northern Ontario that suffered the most, not Canada's largest city. Northern Ontario are always the victims and Southern Ontario are always to blame.