TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

Now that gets me coming up with a highly improbable hypothesis/scenario: What if the municipality of Temagami bans trunks along 11?
For one, if T Bay can consider banning trucks on a provincial highway, I don't see why Temagami can't do the same.
Secondly, there are too many fatal accidents on that stretch.
Most importantly, that forces trucks to detour via QC 101. I do wanna imagine how things play out if such ban is ever considered.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now that gets me coming up with a highly improbable hypothesis/scenario: What if the municipality of Temagami bans trunks along 11?
For one, if T Bay can consider banning trucks on a provincial highway, I don't see why Temagami can't do the same.
Secondly, there are too many fatal accidents on that stretch.
Most importantly, that forces trucks to detour via QC 101. I do wanna imagine how things play out if such ban is ever considered.

They're not banning trucks on a provincial highway, though. They're banning them from a municipal road that happens to bridge a gap between two provincial highways. Between Highway 11/17 and Highway 589, Dawson Road is a municipal street with no signage to indicate that it is connecting to provincial highways other than the following:

A single direction sign beside the southbound offramp on 11/17 just before Dawson Rroad
A single reassurance sign just past the intersection of Dawson Road and Highway 589, referring to that stretch as Highway 102 East.

That's it. That's 100% of the signage designating Dawson Road as a provincial highway between the two other provincial highways it interacts with. There are some street signs in a few places where the city has called it "Highway 102", "Hwy No. 102" or "Hwy 102" but they're not King's Highway navigation signs, they're just regular street signs appearing above, beside or below (there's no consistency) Dawson Road street signs.

The same follows for Arthur Street between Highway 11/17 and Highway 130. There is no signage, other than city installed white-on-green street signs, that indicates that that road is a provincial highway, because it isn't a provincial highway.

Highway 11/17 leading west from Harbour Expressway is the provincial highway, and it's the only east-west provincial highway serving the city proper.

The main reason the city hasn't yet banned trucks from 102 and Arthur Street isn't because they're provincial highways, it's because the MTO wouldn't allow the city to erect signs on 11/17 advising truck drivers of the restrictions. Considering the city is now behaving as if this is possible (previously they wouldn't even entertain the idea, now it's becoming policy) suggests that the MTO has revised their stance on signage indicating upcoming vehicle restrictions on municipal roads. We might even see the city's signage indicating a ban on jake brakes moved up to the city limits, instead of the point where the municipality takes control of the road.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/oliver-paipoonge-mayor-slams-dawson-road-truck-ban-839825

The City of T Bay probably didn’t intend this, but if passed, it’s forcing the province to twin 11-17 all the way to Shabaqua Corners and bypass Oliver Paipoonage “prematurely”. (MTO wasn’t even planning to twin TCH until 2030 lol.)

No it isn't. All that truck traffic has to go through Ignace, Dryden and Schreiber, etc., and they're even larger than Kakabeka Falls, so this isn't going to change anything.

Oliver Paipoonge is in a really shitty situation now, because they both want a by-pass (to keep trucks out of Kakabeka Falls) but also oppose the by-pass (to keep traffic in Kakabeka Fallls). They will also no doubt oppose the downloading of the rest of 102 to the local municipalities, meaning the existing highway used as a by-pass by most travellers will remain in place.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by vid

No it isn't. All that truck traffic has to go through Ignace, Dryden and Schreiber, etc., and they're even larger than Kakabeka Falls, so this isn't going to change anything.

Oliver Paipoonge is in a really shitty situation now, because they both want a by-pass (to keep trucks out of Kakabeka Falls) but also oppose the by-pass (to keep traffic in Kakabeka Fallls). They will also no doubt oppose the downloading of the rest of 102 to the local municipalities, meaning the existing highway used as a by-pass by most travellers will remain in place.

I was gonna suggest that MTO should make the bypass closer to the town even if that means a wider river crossing but then I realized that won't happen.

Edit: I'm gonna say something cold now. When a serious (but hopefully not fatal) accident happens, the towns will cry for a bypass.
Also, Schreiber? I thought most trucks will use 11 instead of 17 between Nipigon and North Bay.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Now that gets me coming up with a highly improbable hypothesis/scenario: What if the municipality of Temagami bans trunks along 11?
For one, if T Bay can consider banning trucks on a provincial highway, I don't see why Temagami can't do the same.
Secondly, there are too many fatal accidents on that stretch.
Most importantly, that forces trucks to detour via QC 101. I do wanna imagine how things play out if such ban is ever considered.

A municipality can try to ban trucks along a provincial highway but it won't work.

For Temagami, the MTO has control of Hwy 11 through the entire municipality including the town portion. Temagami's municipal council has no authority over Hwy 11 anywhere. The MTO maintains it and the province pays for it.
It is not a connecting link.

Now connecting links are different. They are municipal roads/streets that are part of a provincial highway but are controlled and paid for by the municipality. An example is Hwy 101 that goes through the urban part of Timmins between Porcupine and Kamiskotia Road. The City of Timmins regulates that section and can pass by-laws concerning it. I'm pretty sure that it's the same thing for Dawson Rd/Hwy 102 in Thunder Bay.

Connecting links have been unpopular with municipalities because they are very costly. The municipalities are always begging the provincial government for funding for them. It's for that reason that they wouldn't actually ban trucks or then they certainly wouldn't get provincial funding.

But lately the ON government is giving less money for connecting links so a municipality may try to do something to garner attention but back off when a point has been made.

[vid]

I can see Thunder Bay just going ahead with it here, we're generally fairly stubborn and independent and unwilling to back off of a decision once we've made it. If the city passes a by-law prohibiting trucks from Dawson Road, that decision won't be reversed for a long time.

Except for a mall at the junction of Highway 11/17, at this point, there is no actual need for trucks to use that road other than as a shortcut, so the business case presented by businesses on Arthur Street doesn't even apply there. I can easily see them passing that by-law even if it gets amended to only include Dawson Road. The province would probably react to it by just cancelling all of highway 102, or downgrading it as a westward extension of Highway 589.

[Dengler Avenue]

Meanwhile, I noticed that twinning 11 from Smooth Rock Falls to Hearst requires expropriating a lot of private properties (which is funny because I don’t see many of those along 17 or along 11 from Englehart to Cochrane, except in towns). Would that in turn make the cost higher than twinning 17 by taming Lake Superior shore mountains?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Meanwhile, I noticed that twinning 11 from Smooth Rock Falls to Hearst requires expropriating a lot of private properties (which is funny because I don’t see many of those along 17 or along 11 from Englehart to Cochrane, except in towns). Would that in turn make the cost higher than twinning 17 by taming Lake Superior shore mountains?

Unless those are multimillion dollar properties, it would still be cheaper to expropriate.

[sonysnob]

Video of some recently twinned sections of the Trans-Canada Highway:

• Video Link

[Dengler Avenue]

Great video! Thanks sonysnob.
Ps: I'm surprised that left shoulder's virtually non-existent and that right shoulder's pretty narrow at some places too.
Ps: I wonder why MTO wanted to turn 69 into a full freeway right from the beginning, instead of just upgrading it to a dual-carriage way like it did with the 11 towards North Bay. I mean, it's cheaper that way and, with the extra cash, more kilometers can be twinned. Interchanges can be added later on (with the exception of some, such as 69/64) wherever MTO sees fit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Great video! Thanks sonysnob.
Ps: I'm surprised that left shoulder's virtually non-existent and that right shoulder's pretty narrow at some places too.
Ps: I wonder why MTO wanted to turn 69 into a full freeway right from the beginning, instead of just upgrading it to a dual-carriage way like it did with the 11 towards North Bay. I mean, it's cheaper that way and, with the extra cash, more kilometers can be twinned. Interchanges can be added later on (with the exception of some, such as 69/64) wherever MTO sees fit.

1) To save cost.

2) Because the plan is Highway 69 will be resigned to 400 once it is complete.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Meanwhile, I noticed that twinning 11 from Smooth Rock Falls to Hearst requires expropriating a lot of private properties (which is funny because I don’t see many of those along 17 or along 11 from Englehart to Cochrane, except in towns). Would that in turn make the cost higher than twinning 17 by taming Lake Superior shore mountains?

The properties between Smooth Rock Falls and Hearst are probably some of cheapest land you can buy in the province.

[Dengler Avenue]

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/2018/02/21/fatal-accident-at-hwy-17
The driver of the passenger vehicle was pronounced dead on scene. Highway 17 at B Line near Pembroke is closed until later today.

At this point, even upgrading that busy stretch (Read: Arnprior to Deep River) to a super-2 may be a good start.

[Dengler Avenue]

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...g-a-life-worth

The title should be self-explanatory.
The article was published a while ago, but it provided some perspectives.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...g-a-life-worth

The title should be self-explanatory.
The article was published a while ago, but it provided some perspectives.

For some reason, it just goes to the main page.

[Dengler Avenue]

Try looking up “How much is saving a life worth” in National Post then.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Try looking up “How much is saving a life worth” in National Post then.

I have driven that stretch.

Why not lower the speed limit and do more enforcement?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I have driven that stretch.

Why not lower the speed limit and do more enforcement?

For speed limit: The windy part, sure; the straight section, leave it as is.
For patrol: Policing cost might interfere with twinning cost...?

[Doady]

Here is article from CBC years back about the high amount of deadly accidents on the untwinned portion of Highway 17 west of Ottawa.

Twinning of 'death highway' a slow work in progress
There were more than 56 fatal crashes on Highway 17 from 2001 to 2010

By Paul Jay, CBC News

Municipal officials in Renfrew County are hopeful after recent meetings with the province that work to expand Highway 17 beyond Arnprior, Ont., can become more than just wishful thinking.

For years mayors in the region have been calling on the province to speed up the twinning of the Highway to communities like Renfrew, Pembroke and Petawawa.

Locals consider the highway dangerous because it is only two lanes, cuts through many communities and, as it is part of the TransCanada highway network, has a higher than normal volume of trucks on the road.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/twinning-of-death-highway-a-slow-work-in-progress-1.2431276

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Doady

Here is article from CBC years back about the high amount of deadly accidents on the untwinned portion of Highway 17 west of Ottawa.



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/twinning-of-death-highway-a-slow-work-in-progress-1.2431276

Oh yea I've read it before. It sucks that even the federal government would not provide money to twin it when it's right outside of the national capital region.

The county fought hard to finally get the design phase going as of August 2017.