ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by Zanarkand A East

The "club" crowd is ruining the "lounge" scene too. That's where they go when they're too old to pretend to dance, and just want to "be seen." Some real nightspots would be great for ATLstn, but the the owners will have to enforce a higher standard ... somehow.

Ok, so what's your idea of "real" nightspots that you think would be great for AS that would ensure a higher standard.

[gttx]

The easy answers too this whole question are connectivity and diversity (not of people per se, but of everything else).

Make it simpler and more convenient to get to Atlantic Station. Make Atlantic Station part of the fabric of the city - not some giant mall set apart, as it currently stands. Connect north to Loring Heights. Improve connections south into Home Park. Connections east are hamstrung by the interstate, but you can work to make crossing more efficient by allowing people to use 14th St or Deering Rd (which is currently inaccessible) and making the trip there easy.

Push to improve transit service. A shuttle is nice, but a rail spur or even just a streetcar that went through AS and snaked its way through West Midtown before connecting with the future Beltline would be ideal.

And finally, get people to live there. Atlantic Station's biggest failure was its inability to finish the housing component on time. As a result, they lost a huge number of contracts before the housing market collapsed and a lot of the units are now either rental or just sitting vacant. Without people around - different types of people doing different things at different times of day - the district cannot survive as any sort of "vibrant" place. To do that you need to also free the mix of retail up to actually serve residents. Dry cleaners, delis, shoe repair shops, drug stores, a local pub - they aren't glamorous, but they are places that real people living in real cities actually need and use. The reason more people don't live there now (at least my suspicion) is that it doesn't feel like a live/work/play community. It feels like a suburban mall turned inside-out. And who wants to live on top of that?

[micropundit]

http://www.ajc.com/business/new-owners-new-direction-861946.html

[simms3_redux]

^^^Agreed, and frankly, as it stands now with lots of options available at 1010, Loews, Brookwood, and tons of other buildings in the area, AS's perception problem does it no favors in attracting people to live (though an effort is being made to change that).

The trade area that AS will serve and should serve favors nightspots in West Midtown, Crescent St (minus a couple places), Va-Hi, and Inman Park/PonceyHighlands/Cabbagetown, and of course Buckhead. Opera is the last bastion of decent big city clubbing and even that place can attract an unsavory crowd.

AS needs to attract a few "neighborhood bars" and a couple of them can be more dance oriented. I'm thinking along the lines of that small bar next to Moes and Joes in Va-Hi which has that obnoxious DJ who never takes requests, but still it's a fun place to go and dance like an idiot after a few pitchers of PBR.

I actually do see diversity in these places (granted if diversity to you means 90+% black, then no it's not diverse, maybe 20-30% black at most), but nobody is in the "scene" crowd. Va-Hi is like the meeting grounds of Tech and Emory students (among everyone else), and West Midtown is like the early bird special 30-35 crowd (thinking Ormsby's).

I say if you want to go clubbing and join the "scene" crowd, then go over to Cheshire Bridge Rd. That area is perfect to set up a bunch of superclubs and late night places catering to whoever in the hell cares because it's on Cheshire Bridge (could be Atl's "Meatpacking District"). They should extend last call to 3:30 there and close at 4:00 (or later). There isn't as high of a concentration of residents there and there is already a 1.5 mile strip of clubs (most of them sketchy as hell). The gay clubs are over there and some of the largest black clubs are over there and there are several 24 hour dining establishments there, too.

Late night crowds in Atlanta take on a whole different meaning from other cities. I think Opera often does a good job of trying to attract a mixed crowd, but Atlanta's nightlife is so segregated. In Manhattan you'll see Wall St types, Mad. Ave types, secretaries, etc etc all partying in the Meatpacking District (and all of them work hard and wear suits everyday, and all races, gays and straights). In Atlanta you have the professional crowds generally avoiding the "club scenes" at all costs, and the club scenes are then segregated into black clubs, Hispanic clubs, gay clubs, and white trash clubs. I'm not pressing for "white clubs", just a more professional crowd at at least some of the clubs.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by NYbyWAYofGA

Ok, so what's your idea of "real" nightspots that you think would be great for AS that would ensure a higher standard.

This will be something new, so I can't point to a certain place that already exists (at least that anyone here has heard of).

And if I could, I sure as hell wouldn't tell you, or anyone, for free

I say if you want to go clubbing and join the "scene" crowd, then go over to Cheshire Bridge Rd. That area is perfect to set up a bunch of superclubs and late night places catering to whoever in the hell cares because it's on Cheshire Bridge (could be Atl's "Meatpacking District"). They should extend last call to 3:30 there and close at 4:00 (or later). There isn't as high of a concentration of residents there and there is already a 1.5 mile strip of clubs (most of them sketchy as hell). The gay clubs are over there and some of the largest black clubs are over there and there are several 24 hour dining establishments there, too.

This is pure genius. I used to live near there, and this area feels so remote and buffered, that it would work perfectly for the loud scenester/loiterer crowd.

In Atlanta you have the professional crowds generally avoiding the "club scenes" at all costs, and the club scenes are then segregated into black clubs, Hispanic clubs, gay clubs, and white trash clubs. I'm not pressing for "white clubs", just a more professional crowd at at least some of the clubs.

As a non-white person, I wholeheartedly agree with this. People forget that there are plenty of non-whites that are just as put off by the ignorant club/scenester/loiterer/saggy-pants crowd, which is often perceived (incorrectly, but perception is everything) to be a purely "black" problem. To put it another way, many people think that non-whites, regardless of class, condone this atmosphere. Give me a place in the city where I and other professionals, of any race, can go after work, still wearing a suit, and feel completely comfortable having a few drinks, watching the game, and enjoying some reasonably priced, non-pretentious yet inventive food, without hearing people blaring their "music" outside or screaming at each other in the adjacent booth. Earlier in this forum, someone appropriately called out the Dolce group restaurants at ATLstn for being "thinly-disguised nightclubs:" these are the kinds of places that professionals avoid and scenesters/loiterers overtake. Simple, quality menus and safe surroundings are the way to go.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

^^^Agreed, and frankly, as it stands now with lots of options available at 1010, Loews, Brookwood, and tons of other buildings in the area, AS's perception problem does it no favors in attracting people to live (though an effort is being made to change that).

The trade area that AS will serve and should serve favors nightspots in West Midtown, Crescent St (minus a couple places), Va-Hi, and Inman Park/PonceyHighlands/Cabbagetown, and of course Buckhead. Opera is the last bastion of decent big city clubbing and even that place can attract an unsavory crowd.

AS needs to attract a few "neighborhood bars" and a couple of them can be more dance oriented. I'm thinking along the lines of that small bar next to Moes and Joes in Va-Hi which has that obnoxious DJ who never takes requests, but still it's a fun place to go and dance like an idiot after a few pitchers of PBR.

I actually do see diversity in these places (granted if diversity to you means 90+% black, then no it's not diverse, maybe 20-30% black at most), but nobody is in the "scene" crowd. Va-Hi is like the meeting grounds of Tech and Emory students (among everyone else), and West Midtown is like the early bird special 30-35 crowd (thinking Ormsby's).

I say if you want to go clubbing and join the "scene" crowd, then go over to Cheshire Bridge Rd. That area is perfect to set up a bunch of superclubs and late night places catering to whoever in the hell cares because it's on Cheshire Bridge (could be Atl's "Meatpacking District"). They should extend last call to 3:30 there and close at 4:00 (or later). There isn't as high of a concentration of residents there and there is already a 1.5 mile strip of clubs (most of them sketchy as hell). The gay clubs are over there and some of the largest black clubs are over there and there are several 24 hour dining establishments there, too.

Late night crowds in Atlanta take on a whole different meaning from other cities. I think Opera often does a good job of trying to attract a mixed crowd, but Atlanta's nightlife is so segregated. In Manhattan you'll see Wall St types, Mad. Ave types, secretaries, etc etc all partying in the Meatpacking District (and all of them work hard and wear suits everyday, and all races, gays and straights). In Atlanta you have the professional crowds generally avoiding the "club scenes" at all costs, and the club scenes are then segregated into black clubs, Hispanic clubs, gay clubs, and white trash clubs. I'm not pressing for "white clubs", just a more professional crowd at at least some of the clubs.

Agree with your thinking on restaurants and clubs.

Still, that leaves this as the plan:

1. Get rid of cookie-cutter stores and appeal to high-income hipsters.
2. ???
3. Profit

I'm all for local stores but how do you up rent and then find all these stores? Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. Maybe it will necessarily take some time.

When I think successful unique shops, I'm thinking H&F Bottle Shop or Cacao. They went to Buckhead. It would *really* have to be a new AS to attract those kinds of tenants.

[foxmccleod]

Does anyone know what is going on with the Atlanta Opera building on West Peachtree between 3rd and 4th? The building has been almost completely demolished.

[Zanarkand A East]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Still, that leaves this as the plan:

1. Get rid of cookie-cutter stores and appeal to high-income hipsters.
2. ???
3. Profit

Post of the Century

[BunkyWay]

I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?

I'm just trying to acknowledge the reality of the situation. On WhatNowAtlanta, someone commented that "AS is thug, and once thugged-out, always thugged-out". Do you guys think that this level of thinking is pervasive with the intown crowd, and thus they will continue to stay away from Atlantic Station?

I just hope Atlantic Station can be salvaged. If Toro fails, im afraid Atlantic Station will fail as well.

[BillBanneker]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?

I'm just trying to acknowledge the reality of the situation. On WhatNowAtlanta, someone commented that "AS is thug, and once thugged-out, always thugged-out". Do you guys think that this level of thinking is pervasive with the intown crowd, and thus they will continue to stay away from Atlantic Station?

I just hope Atlantic Station can be salvaged. If Toro fails, im afraid Atlantic Station will fail as well.

Well, Atlantic Station is now seen as "hood"? Can't say I'm too surprised now considering the demographics went I first went there. Hard to believe though considering that it is still new and in Midtown.

[simms3_redux]

I don't know everyone's race here and I don't care, but I do know most of us actually live intown, many of us went to university in Atlanta, and all of us want to see Atlantic Station and Atlanta become a better place. This dialogue is open and honest and exactly the type of dialogue that is not allowed on other sites. Atlanta has a strong hip hop mentality (and we're not talking real hip hop but rather Travis Porter/Jeezy crap) and that mentality/culture is a roadblock to professionalism and true diversity in Atlanta. I know many blacks in Atlanta who are educated, hard working with good jobs, and have way more in common with me, a WASP, than the hip hop scene crowd. As long as the hip hop crowd takes over every new development and every nightspot, the more diverse urban yuppie crowd will be taking their money/living elsewhere. Now it's more of a question of how do you build something that will be enjoyed by the urban intown professional crowd and will be avoided by the "urban" crowd? Atlanta is probably one of only a few cities where developers must ask that question if they are trying to attract a certain segment of the population because the hip hop crowd here is a *huge* segment of the population (which is why we are in a land called the Dirty South).

So, that brings me to my main point of discussion: apparently Geisha House is now closed! (First step done, many more to go)

Also, I noticed the Atlanta Opera building being demolished too! Don't know why or what's going there...another parking lot?

Seems like Atlanta is on a demolishing spree, I just hope they have replacements for everything.

And on the hotel front, I feel like this has been mentioned a while back, but just to be sure: Palomar is re-opening as a Marriot Renaissance and Pacci will close. I'm sad for this because having the Palomar put us in the Palomar league of cities, per se, and I met the executive chef of Pacci and really liked her, so I'm sad for her.

[RobMidtowner]

Don't you think this is getting exaggerated a little bit? I wouldn't consider myself a frequent shopper of Atlantic Station, but the once or twice a month that I do go there, I've never been bothered enough to stop coming back. Granted I was one of the few white people there, but maybe I'm just not as bothered being around a bunch of non-white people.

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?

I'm just trying to acknowledge the reality of the situation. On WhatNowAtlanta, someone commented that "AS is thug, and once thugged-out, always thugged-out". Do you guys think that this level of thinking is pervasive with the intown crowd, and thus they will continue to stay away from Atlantic Station?

I just hope Atlantic Station can be salvaged. If Toro fails, im afraid Atlantic Station will fail as well.

Using terms like "thugged-out" and "hood", let's everyone know of your teabagger, 'er teapartier status.

News Flash for those living under a rock: The great RED state of GEORGIA in 2010 is now home to the LARGEST population of African-Americans (black-skinned people) in the United States of America, displacing New York state.

Is there any wonder that the metro Atlanta would be the primary destination for Blacks returning to Georgia...

Get a grip. African-Americans are not going anywhere (and cannot be easily redirected to live, shop, or play where YOU PEOPLE may want them to be isolated).

There are now more than 1.7 milliion Blacks, more than 500,000 Latinos, and 300,000 plus Asians residing in the 5 core counties.

Diversity has arrived - live with it or "make like a dinosaur and disappear".

[shivtim]

I have to agree with the above two posts. If you're bothered by what you call a "thug mentality," fine, stay out of Atlantic Station. The simple fact is that Atlantic Station is very safe. Just check the APD's crime maps:
http://http://www.atlantapd.org/zone5.aspx
There's far more crime in other parts of zone 5. In fact, in 2011 Atlantic Station has only had nine reported crimes, none of which were violent.

Meanwhile, AS still attracts large numbers of people. Many of them happen to be black, which is no surprise considering the demographics of Atlanta.

I think the changes being made to AS, which are primarily to replace black clientele with white clientele, probably wont succeed.

[(four 0 four)]

I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?

Would a rose by any other name...
See Stewart Avenue's name change to Metropolitan Parkway as an exmple of how well this works.

[BlindFatSnake]

Originally Posted by BillBanneker

Well, Atlantic Station is now seen as "hood"? Can't say I'm too surprised now considering the demographics went I first went there. Hard to believe though considering that it is still new and in Midtown.

[/QUOTE]I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?.[/QUOTE]

You've all seen the commercials that are so prevalent in today's society:

Three white guys and one black guy sitting on a coach watching football and promoting some brand: Bull$hit. Where they do that at?

Three white girls and one black (Anglo-centric) girl dining at a restaurant and enjoying themselves: Bull$hit. Where they do that at?

The real problem in America is WHITE people need to stop running away from the scene when people of color show up.

If the percentage of whites drops below the 80% level, the masses start to disperse in this order: Successful white guys and their trophy (blonde) white girlfriends; less-educated and less-successful white guys and their white female counterparts; and, finally the only white people left are the drug heads and trailer trash looking for a good time with the brothers.

Now that's real talk!

Quit runnning every time the demographics dip below your comfort level of 80/20. Stand your ground... You just may like your new environment... Learn to reach across the aisle and make friends with someone who doesn't look EXACTLY like you.

[BunkyWay]

Originally Posted by BlindFatSnake

Using terms like "thugged-out" and "hood", let's everyone know of your teabagger, 'er teapartier status.

News Flash for those living under a rock: The great RED state of GEORGIA in 2010 is now home to the LARGEST population of African-Americans (black-skinned people) in the United States of America, displacing New York state.

Is there any wonder that the metro Atlanta would be the primary destination for Blacks returning to Georgia...

Get a grip. African-Americans are not going anywhere (and cannot be easily redirected to live, shop, or play where YOU PEOPLE may want them to be isolated).

There are now more than 1.7 milliion Blacks, more than 500,000 Latinos, and 300,000 plus Asians residing in the 5 core counties.

Diversity has arrived - live with it or "make like a dinosaur and disappear".

I thought people understood the use of quotes...

Some will look for any chance to bash white people. It's saddening.

[RobMidtowner]

BFS,

I don't care what color you are, but when you end sentences with "Bull$hit. Where they do that at?" you're not gonna win very many people over. I also disagree with your 80/20 analogy and I'm sure the white people that choose to live in midtown and Atlantic Station would disagree with your mischaracterization that we are drug heads and trailer trash...

[BunkyWay]

I dunno... I guess I'm just skeptical about Atlantic Station's ability to re-do it's image and to recover from such a tarnished reputation. Would a name-change be a good idea?.[/QUOTE]

You've all seen the commercials that are so prevalent in today's society:

Three white guys and one black guy sitting on a coach watching football and promoting some brand: Bull$hit. Where they do that at?

Three white girls and one black (Anglo-centric) girl dining at a restaurant and enjoying themselves: Bull$hit. Where they do that at?

The real problem in America is WHITE people need to stop running away from the scene when people of color show up.

If the percentage of whites drops below the 80% level, the masses start to disperse in this order: Successful white guys and their trophy (blonde) white girlfriends; less-educated and less-successful white guys and their white female counterparts; and, finally the only white people left are the drug heads and trailer trash looking for a good time with the brothers.

Now that's real talk!

Quit runnning every time the demographics dip below your comfort level of 80/20. Stand your ground... You just may like your new environment... Learn to reach across the aisle and make friends with someone who doesn't look EXACTLY like you.[/QUOTE]

You are bothered by white people. We get it.

By the way, I know many black people who associate with whites. Just because you don't like white people doesn't mean that every black person does.

[jnihiser]

Atlantic Station:

Not scary
Not Thug
Great Parking
Almost still a little too Disney urban

My skin color: White.
I don't care what color or SES everyone at Atlantic Station is.
99% of the folks I've seen at AS are just like me...out on the town, looking to do a little shopping, eat, catch a movie, and have a good time.

Pretty standard stuff, really.

If seeing a lot of African-Americans at AS is disconcerting for folks...well...that sounds like a personal issue.

Seacrest out.