Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by deasine

Not really. At least at Commercial-Broadway, a lot of people will be disembarking at the station to transfer. The issue in Main's case is that not a lot of people from downtown will get off and take the LRT when they could've rode a bus to where ever they needed to get to.

That is demonstrably false. People will take rail transit even if it is slower solely because it is easier to understand where it is going and it is perceived as much more reliable. Especially in situations where there are transfers, people are unable to compared total trip times and instead measure in their heads segment times - if the first segment wins for skytrain, and later parts of the trip can be slow and people will make the wrong call due to lack of information. Only 1-2% of users will use a trip planner and avail themselves of things like next bus alerts to help plan a more effective route.

That being said, I don't think there will be much capacity problems given the changes in travel patterns that come with building a fuller network. In any case, this study would show the problem and rule it out so no need to worry.

[OhioGuy]

The Transport Politic site has a new write-up regarding the Broadway corridor:

Can Vancouver Afford to Abandon SkyTrain for its Broadway Route?

Moreover, should riders hoping to get to UBC be expected to settle for 16 mph average speeds on light rail or buses — the fastest they’re expected to run even with exclusive lanes? The Canada Line travels at a significantly speedier average speed of 22 mph.

Today, downtown Vancouver has a 49% transit commute share, pretty high for any city; on the other hand, UBC is only able to attract 27% of commuters by transit (despite a very high student population), and Fairview’s even worse, at 21%. A relatively slow light rail line cannot provide the kind of mobility improvements possible with a fast, automated SkyTrain line.

The advantages of building the route as a SkyTrain line accrue as you zoom out, too; combined with the proposed Evergreen Line, a new UBC route could provide a direct link from Coquitlam and Port Moody to the city’s western edge, serving as the region’s new east-west mainline. By expanding the transfer-free links to UBC, the number of transit riders can be expected to increase substantially.

[TransitJack]

I'm not sure that if M Line is expanded west intersecting with C Line at Broadway City Hall would be a better option to getting downtown. The Cline Trains going towards Waterfront are pretty packed at Broadway City Hall already. I think you would have better luck to continue to transfer at Commercial Broadway (at least they send empty trains to that station during the rush hours).

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

That is demonstrably false. People will take rail transit even if it is slower solely because it is easier to understand where it is going and it is perceived as much more reliable. Especially in situations where there are transfers, people are unable to compared total trip times and instead measure in their heads segment times - if the first segment wins for skytrain, and later parts of the trip can be slow and people will make the wrong call due to lack of information. Only 1-2% of users will use a trip planner and avail themselves of things like next bus alerts to help plan a more effective route.

That being said, I don't think there will be much capacity problems given the changes in travel patterns that come with building a fuller network. In any case, this study would show the problem and rule it out so no need to worry.

Even for regular commuters? I can't imagine me taking the SkyTrain, then taking the LRT to get to Arbutus when one 16 gets me there. The point being, how many commuters will be getting off at Main Street from downtown to transfer onto the LRT? The passengers taking the Expo Line eastbound head east, not west.

There's a document Im' looking for and I believe nname or officedweller might have instant access to: the diagram indicating expected passenger loads on the SkyTrain network along with the Evergreen Line.

Edit: Looks like Jarrett of Human Transit thinks the same: http://www.humantransit.org/2010/04/vancouvers-broadway-corridor-options-announced.html

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, regular commuters make bad decisions all the time since they have imperfect information. Unless one seeks it out, you would never know where the bus at a stop went. Considering the low traffic on trip planners, I have to believe there is a huge information market failure here. There is a bunch of network theory for autos that showed this by proving you can decrease travel time by eliminating road choices that provide poor performance. You could actually have an environment where including the skytrain past the c-line if you provide a reasonably good LRT from Main is worse since people will make the bad choice to transfer twice. (depending on traffic demands further west who you want to force the double transfer on)

[CLC]

Originally Posted by OhioGuy

The Transport Politic site has a new write-up regarding the Broadway corridor:

Can Vancouver Afford to Abandon SkyTrain for its Broadway Route?

May as well check "The Livable Blog" for other side of the opinion, be sure to read the comments section:
http://www.livableregion.ca/blog/blogs/i...broadway_rapid_transit_alternatives_lack

[deasine]

Scanning the comments, I see Patrick Condon's response is mainly about project cost and cost per person, which is a good point. But that brings up the question, why was 2.8 billion the figure that was quoted for the UBC Line?

[usog]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Yeah, regular commuters make bad decisions all the time since they have imperfect information. Unless one seeks it out, you would never know where the bus at a stop went. Considering the low traffic on trip planners, I have to believe there is a huge information market failure here.

Wait, what? Tripplanner is actually not used that much? Everyone I know uses it at least occasionally. Or is just my generation

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I'm not sure that if M Line is expanded west intersecting with C Line at Broadway City Hall would be a better option to getting downtown. The Cline Trains going towards Waterfront are pretty packed at Broadway City Hall already. I think you would have better luck to continue to transfer at Commercial Broadway (at least they send empty trains to that station during the rush hours).

Yes, but in the current situation, it is much cheaper to increase capacity on the C-Line than the Expo Line. You can buy 10-15 more C-Trains for less than $200 million and thereby greatly increase the amount of capacity into downtown, without spending a cent on the stations or OMC.

By comparison, Expo Line needs all of its platforms extended in order to increase its capacity, at a cost of at least $100 million per station (and then you still need to buy rolling stock and OMC space). Remember that the cost previously announced for upgrading Expo Line is in the billions.

So you could definitely argue that the cheapest way to help Expo Line's busiest section is actually to extend Millennium Line over to the C-Line and encourage passengers to transfer there.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by usog

Wait, what? Tripplanner is actually not used that much? Everyone I know uses it at least occasionally. Or is just my generation

In Portland I believe the study was less that 2% of system users ever used their online trip planning or next bus service (which was also available by phone). The number was used in the context to justify spending money to upgrade their next bus system to have physical displays at main stops and stations.

I don't think any system would really by far from that level in all respects. Even at 5% it would be a pretty tiny portion of ridership.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by deasine

Scanning the comments, I see Patrick Condon's response is mainly about project cost and cost per person, which is a good point. But that brings up the question, why was 2.8 billion the figure that was quoted for the UBC Line?

the monetary cost may be up to debate (depends on the source of his figure). I also don't agree with his rule of thumb of "The higher the speed the harder the access." Light rail is infamous for bring inconvenience for a few cities' examples I know of, and for light rail to function as "rapid transit", I don't see Translink would plan to have station spacings as close a PC would imagine.

[squeezied]

I also wouldn't consider narrow station platforms out in the middle of a busy and congested artery as ease of access.

[CLC]

Is Metro news the first local paper to report on the 6 Translink options:

http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/local/article/507069--translink-mulls-six-options-for-broadway

Interesting to notice:

Meggs said rapid transit through the Broadway business district would carry about 150,000 riders a day — more than the Canada Line and second only to the original Expo Line.

[CoastMeridian]

I recently went through the TransLink UBC Line discussion, and I have to admit, the SkyTrain + tram/LRT idea doesn't sound too bad. Maybe there's a chance the LRT will appease the west side NIMBYs?

I'd still prefer SkyTrain all the way to UBC though, or if that's not possible, SkyTrain to Arbutus, then B-Line in a median lane (like with the 98 B-Line) and expand SkyTrain later on.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I'm not sure that if M Line is expanded west intersecting with C Line at Broadway City Hall would be a better option to getting downtown. The Cline Trains going towards Waterfront are pretty packed at Broadway City Hall already. I think you would have better luck to continue to transfer at Commercial Broadway

Perhaps. Keep in mind, however, that many trips are suburb to suburb. People living in Burnaby work in Richmond and vice-versa. Both are major employment centers. Right now it can make perverse sense to route via downtown. I have tried crossing the gap by bus and was not convinced that it was faster or more convenient than changing at Waterfront: there is one less transfer (if you start on the M-line) and service is more consistent. It is also, as you say, easier to get a seat - but I suspect few would travel the extra distance if the gap were closed.

Routing via the gap would also make sense for anyone headed to Yaletown. And although they would be travelling against the peak direction, also consider those who live downtown but commute to the suburbs.

P.S.: I'm confused about transfers. I meant that if the M- and C-Lines linked up there would be one less transfer compared to taking the bus. Today, Expo-Line riders can save a transfer by going via downtown, but of course that would not change. Also, transferring from M to Expo is very quick compared to catching a bus.

[The_Henry_Man]

Zach Shaner really nails it with his article on the UBC Line rapid transit. Totally sums up the ultimate conclusion that's coming from this debate:

http://www.zachshaner.ca/2010/04/vancouver-skytrain-all-the-way-to-ubc-an-illustrated-argument/

Most of us on this board, and many others in our region as well as many outsiders and experts understand that the extension of the Millennium Skytrain to UBC is basically common sense. The only people who'll never get it are guys like Patrick Condon, Zwei, and NIMBYs in West Point Grey. The VERY minimum that should be done is the M-Line to Arbutus, and then BRT (probably upgraded 99B) to UBC, only as a temporary measure in case there really is no money to do so, and then continue the M-Line extension to UBC from there contingent on more funding.

I'm going to post my response about all this on Translink forums tonight (Today was my last class for one of my courses. So I have a bit more time now). I'll post that up here as well.

[officedweller]

I've only just gotten up to speed too.

I'd prefer SkyTrain all the way to UBC - but the Combined RRT-LRT option doesn't look too bad and it could eventually be extended down the Arbutus corridor.

Comments:

Option 2 - LRT Alternative 1
Introduces a transfer for those going from M-Line to Broadway Corridor. For connectivity, this only makes sense to me if it starts on Broadway at Broadway & Commercial Station. I don't think it's realistic to have LRT travel from VCC-Clark Station to Broadway & Commercial Station (there's not much room in the Grandview Cut, the grades are steep around there and a tunnel would be too expensive/overkill) - but you'd need a spur to a storage yard on the False Creek Flats (the northern route would play double duty). Standard issues about frequency, reliability of RoW, etc.

Option 3 - LRT Alternative 2
Not sure what the additional line on the streetcar RoW from Main St. to Arbutus will accomplish over the LRT Alternative 1, since Alternative 1 still hits Canada Line, M-Line and Expo Line. Seems like an unecessary duplication. Standard issues about frequency, reliability of RoW, etc.

Option 4 - RRT
The option to start on Broadway at Broadway & Commercial only makes sense if it is a PPP using non-SkyTrain technology and not an extension of the M-Line (installing a switch on the Expo Line at Broadway & Commercial had been previously rejected because it would cause severe delays on the Expo Line during construction and eventually constrain capacity on the Expo Line by interlining trains; installing a switch on the M-Line seems to reverse the diversion to the Flase Creek Flats for the high tech offices/UBC Emily Carr/SFU campus)). A transfer also seems to defeat the benefit of bridging the "gap" to the Canada Line. If it is a separate line, where would the storage yard be located?

Option 5 - LRT and RRT
This could be phased-in - starting as RRT and BRT. It will accomplish the important SkyTrain one seat ride between Coquitlam and the Broadway Corridor as originally envisaged for the M-Line. If the LRT is really a local stop streetcar, that could differentiate the RRT and the LRT services, but would be painfully slow out to UBC. This would give the Broadway merchants what they are asking for (i.e. stick it to them? and would be cheaper than tunnelled RRT) and would potentially kick start an LRT/streetcar network using the Arbutus corridor. Personally, if SkyTrain stops at Arbutus, I would rather see an LRT north-south on the Arbutus Corridor and then turning west on Broadway to UBC - that would have less duplication than the proposed combination along the streetcar RoW (but require 2 transfers for those headed downtown from the LRT).

[deasine]

Just a crazy idea if we are insistent on P3 projects (which in this case, it really doesn't matter), but if Lougheed was properly configured so that the tracks of the Evergreen Line don't criss cross with the Millennium Line, it would be possible to P3 the entire Evergreen Line right from UBC to Douglas College.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I'm going to post my response about all this on Translink forums tonight (Today was my last class for one of my courses. So I have a bit more time now). I'll post that up here as well.

what Translink forums?

Post it in Jarrett's Human Transit blog too, the Translink staff is watching there.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by CLC

what Translink forums?

http://www.translink.ca/forum

Thanks tgill for the correction.