Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[craner]

A stacked tunnel like jsbertram's design would be cool although I still think there are more inherent risks with a tunnel compared to a bridge. I think a bridge similar to the one near Bowness park is the best solution to go over the Weaslehead.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Interesting to read the Jan 29th Workshop Presentation (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType490/Production/CSWRR/Communities_workshop_1.pdf), and wasn't surprised to see that the tunnelling options need 60 -80 m of ROW space, which is larger than what is easily available on 37th St in Lakeview.

However, I haven't seen anyone bring up the idea that the tunnels could be stacked so the ROW space can be less than 40 m.

I've taken the cut n cover Schematic from page 25 and re-designed it as a stacked cut n cover tunnel.
Building such a tunnel 25 m deep isn't difficult anymore.

An interesting idea. I urge you to submit it for consideration:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4043.htm

Page down to:
A link to the evaluation form can be found here.

For those of you who were un-Canadian enough to show up at one of the open houses (i.e. brave enough to endure -30 windchill to express your opinion on what is most probably an exercise in futility), you can use the above link to have your say.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

In Lakeview I count less than 90 homes in an 85m corridor pushed right against the boundary, plus two phases of the apartments right at 37th and Glenmore. Plenty of homes loose back lane access, and part of their backyards, but the number even with those is below 200. Maybe 80 apartments on top of that.

To get to 500 homes he must be thinking a full corridor including the future hypothetical outer ring road.

A map with 85 m corridors:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&h...820091103928423336.00049d0d11b5f061fc7ee



Depends where and what we are asking it to do. Certainly I wouldn't want to just add a lane to Glenmore and 14th St and call it a day. Cars aren't bad in and of themselves, and stopping the project won't eliminate the trips that this project is destined to serve.

I was doing some more thinking of the 37th St alignment, and it occurred to me that if the tunnels were built using a TBM machine, the western tunnel (for southbound traffic) could be built entirely under the 37th St ROW and the eastern tunnel (for northbound traffic) could be built under the existing housing along the east side of 37th St. (after the appropriate legalities are taken care of). With this concept, it's doubtful any houses would need to be expropriated & demolished.

The new SkyTrain in Vancouver was built through the downtown core using a TBM machine starting from the south side of False Creek, and there is a curved section of tunnels (between Yaletown Stn and Vancouver City Centre Stn for those of you who know the area) that pass under existing condo towers and office towers.

Tunneling under houses isn't without risk, but when there is 100 to 150 feet of earth between your basement and the tunnel, would you even know it's there? I suspect the property owners would rather have a tunnel 100+ feet below them than be kicked off their property. And the homeowners facing the prospect of their back alley becoming the edge of a freeway would also support a TBM tunnel built this way.

The construction pits would need to temporarily use some of the park space at the SE corner of 37th @ Glenmore during construction, but when the tunnels are finished the construction pits would be covered over (or filled in again) and the park re-landscaped.


An alternative location for the construction pits would be at the open space where Southland Dr would extend west to 37th St. From these pits, the TBM tunnels would be dug out north to Glenmore.

With the construction pits located here, a temporary construction road could be built north from Anderson Rd @ 37th St so the construction traffic could use Anderson Rd, or the construction traffic could bypass most of the communities by using the existing 37th St south from Anderson to 22x, then east to connect with MacLeod, Deerfoot or the SERR (which would likely be finished by the time SWRR construction gets going). This may be preferred to get construction traffic separated from regular traffic.

At the final stages of SWRR construction, this temporary construction road would be rebuilt as the SWRR so the 37th St tunnel and the western extension of Southland Dr. can connect to 37th St @ Anderson Rd.

[MalcolmTucker]

I suspect the property owners would rather have a tunnel 100+ feet below them than be kicked off their property. And the homeowners facing the prospect of their back alley becoming the edge of a freeway would also support a TBM tunnel built this way.

Only ten times the cost so we can save the inconvenience of perhaps 400 households (including those north of Glenmore, in Lakeview, and south of the reservoir)

Would be cheaper to just give each household a $100,000 goodwill payment! Even $1,000,000 a house would be cheaper!

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Only ten times the cost so we can save the inconvenience of perhaps 400 households (including those north of Glenmore, in Lakeview, and south of the reservoir)

Would be cheaper to just give each household a $100,000 goodwill payment! Even $1,000,000 a house would be cheaper!

Exactly!

Maybe the province should just come up with a rough plan, figure out what properties would be needed, take the money they were going to give to the reserve, divide that by the number of properties and offer that to the owners. With the kind of premium that would be over the value of the properties, they'd be saying to hell with the neighbors, SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Only ten times the cost so we can save the inconvenience of perhaps 400 households (including those north of Glenmore, in Lakeview, and south of the reservoir)

Would be cheaper to just give each household a $100,000 goodwill payment! Even $1,000,000 a house would be cheaper!

You need at least 336 units in Lakeview and Glamorgan to build the SWRR on the 37 St/Glenmore Tr alignment.

336 x $1m vs. $275m plus land.

I see your point and agree with it. The assessed value of these units is around the $300k mark. As a home owner, if somebody offered me $100-200k above the market value of my house, my attitude would be FU community association, grab the cash, and move to a better neighbourhood.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Jack Doe

You need at least 336 units in Lakeview and Glamorgan to build the SWRR on the 37 St/Glenmore Tr alignment.

336 x $1m vs. $275m plus land.

I see your point and agree with it. The assessed value of these units is around the $300k mark. As a home owner, if somebody offered me $100-200k above the market value of my house, my attitude would be FU community association, grab the cash, and move to a better neighbourhood.

It seems you're forgetting the homes on the western edges of Oakridge, Palliser, and Woodbine that would be expropriated too. Maybe these communities haven't been yelling as loudly as Lakeview has?

The 37th St ROW south of the Reservoir may be wider, but it still isn't 80 M wide to accommodate the freeway-style roads or cut n cover tunnels being proposed. Adding these houses to the expropriation list has doubled your cost of buying all the homes.

Its now starting to look like spending $500 Million on tunnels is cheaper than $600 Million on houses just to tear them down & clear the land - and then you still have to spend another $1 Billion to build the roads & bridges from Glenmore to Anderson.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Only ten times the cost so we can save the inconvenience of perhaps 400 households (including those north of Glenmore, in Lakeview, and south of the reservoir)

Would be cheaper to just give each household a $100,000 goodwill payment! Even $1,000,000 a house would be cheaper!

Have these numbers been pluck'd from the air?
or from your nether-regions?

or have you seen some reports that have already worked out the costs of the 5 options?

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

It seems you're forgetting the homes on the western edges of Oakridge, Palliser, and Woodbine that would be expropriated too. Maybe these communities haven't been yelling as loudly as Lakeview has?

The 37th St ROW south of the Reservoir may be wider, but it still isn't 80 M wide to accommodate the freeway-style roads or cut n cover tunnels being proposed. Adding these houses to the expropriation list has doubled your cost of buying all the homes.

Its now starting to look like spending $500 Million on tunnels is cheaper than $600 Million on houses just to tear them down & clear the land - and then you still have to spend another $1 Billion to build the roads & bridges from Glenmore to Anderson.

Not so much forgetting as ignoring. The provinces' manual for highway construction suggests 90m for an eight lane freeway. This consists of 45m for the road and a 45m buffer (evenly divided on each side). The ROW south of the reservoir is 65m (minimum, larger in some parts) and north of it 26m (68m if you take out the housing fronting on 37 St).

You can fit a 45m roadway into this ROW if you cut down on the buffer or push the road right up against the Tsuu Tina border. You're right that it would take a double row of housing on 37 St in Lakeview and a single row of housing in Oakridge, Palliser and Woodbine to accommodate a 90m ROW. Nobody I know of has suggested this except the Lakeview Community Association and yourself in the quoted post. From my talks with reps from AB Transportation it seems it is their intention is to shoehorn the road into the reduced ROW, thus negating any need to expropriate any housing south of the reservoir.

[MalcolmTucker]

Tunnels are bloody expensive. One that need to be 8 km long to avoid exproriations, that needs substantial fire controls and emergency exists along with exhaust ventilation would be even more. Plus unless you are getting brand new custom boring machines (larger than the ones for 3 lanes for Madrid that are non circular borers - an even wider bore would be much harder as an engineering challenge. At minimum I would put it at $500 million a kilometer (remember the after the fact tunnel bore for airport trail was estimated at around $1 billion for a 1 km long tunnel). My suggestion for huge sales incentives wasn't serious, above perhaps $25 k which is worth it to avoid the legal costs of formal expropriation. There is no way the tunnel would work out to be cheaper than property acquisition. Impossible, out of the question.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Tunnels are bloody expensive. One that need to be 8 km long to avoid exproriations, that needs substantial fire controls and emergency exists along with exhaust ventilation would be even more. Plus unless you are getting brand new custom boring machines (larger than the ones for 3 lanes for Madrid that are non circular borers - an even wider bore would be much harder as an engineering challenge. At minimum I would put it at $500 million a kilometer (remember the after the fact tunnel bore for airport trail was estimated at around $1 billion for a 1 km long tunnel). My suggestion for huge sales incentives wasn't serious, above perhaps $25 k which is worth it to avoid the legal costs of formal expropriation. There is no way the tunnel would work out to be cheaper than property acquisition. Impossible, out of the question.

I agree. Although I'm a big fan of tunnels I don't see anyway it would be viable, except for maybe a stacked tunnel from Glenmore Tr to 66 Av, and even that is questionable.

Besides, if you're going to build a big-ass tunnel, why not go underneath the Tsuu Tina reserve and connect to Sarcee/Glenmore? I think everything below three metres belongs to the province.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Jack Doe

Besides, if you're going to build a big-ass tunnel, why not go underneath the Tsuu Tina reserve and connect to Sarcee/Glenmore? I think everything below three metres belongs to the province.

Is this true? Could we legally "use" the land under a reserve in this country? I just suspect a major legal battle, based on previous history. Did the original treaties even take this into consideration? Has this concept been tested in court in Canada? I'm thinking slant drilling, that sort of thing.

It's something I've never even considered before, and you raised a huge red flag in my head. I'd love to know if anyone has any idea on subsurface rights w.r.t. Indian reservations.

[MalcolmTucker]

Can't go under the reserve without permission - the treaty covers mineral rights, they own the land and everything underneath it in my understanding. And if your building a tunnel to avoid expropriation it would go from sarcee - highway 8 to around southland, around 8 km. Once you set precedent, have to apply it on whole route. People complain all the time why we can't build things anymore it seems - folding to a small group like this would be one past of the reason. If Ýou decide to build it, plow it through.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Is this true? Could we legally "use" the land under a reserve in this country? I just suspect a major legal battle, based on previous history. Did the original treaties even take this into consideration? Has this concept been tested in court in Canada? I'm thinking slant drilling, that sort of thing.

It's something I've never even considered before, and you raised a huge red flag in my head. I'd love to know if anyone has any idea on subsurface rights w.r.t. Indian reservations.

To be honest, I have no idea. The feds had rights to most of the land in the prairie provinces up until the 20's/30's. I thought that sub-surface rights were transferred at that time. Whether that includes federal crown land such as Indian reserves, I don't know. Perhaps somebody with knowledge of treaty or constitutional law could enlighten me.

In the 70's the provincial government formed a quasi-public company (Alberta Energy - subsequently subsumed by PanCanadian to become EnCana I believe) that had the rights to drill underneath CFB Suffield (federal crown land). It was my understanding that the province owned the sub-surface rights throughout the province, including federal land such as Indian Reserves or military bases.

I could be wrong.

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Can't go under the reserve without permission - the treaty covers mineral rights, they own the land and everything underneath it in my understanding. And if your building a tunnel to avoid expropriation it would go from sarcee - highway 8 to around southland, around 8 km. Once you set precedent, have to apply it on whole route. People complain all the time why we can't build things anymore it seems - folding to a small group like this would be one past of the reason. If Ýou decide to build it, plow it through.

I'll defer to your knowledge.

My point was actually why such a tunnel can't and shouldn't be built. I think the money spent on building a 10km tunnel from Anderson to Glenmore could be better spent on building pretty much every interchange and LRT line ever envisaged for Calgary. From a cost/benefit ratio, a SWRR tunnel doesn't make sense to me.

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Can't go under the reserve without permission - the treaty covers mineral rights, they own the land and everything underneath it in my understanding. ...

Absolutely correct. The reserves include the sub-surface rights. There will be no tunneling under the reserve.

When the federal government gave those land grants to the CPR, they also included sub-surface rights. A big chunk of that land was in the Brooks area. When the CPR created the Eastern Irrigation District, they sold the surface rights only to the farmers. When they sold the irrigation district itself to the farmers as a cooperative, they retained the mineral rights for Pan-Canadian Petroleum (once a CP subsidiary, today's Encana) and they paid the EID a royalty. The EID is by far the richest irrigation district.

Almost all crown land sold since was surface rights only.

[DizzyEdge]

Re: under the reserve

Even if you could, wouldn't you need to build surface ventilation and such anyway?

[kw5150]

I personally dont want anything going over my drinking water that involves vehicles. They would have to insure that the bridge would have its own state-of the-art self contained drainage system for all of the shit that comes off of industrail vehicles and cars. Im still not convinced the weaselhead is the best option at all.......there may be more of a battle with the residents than the battle that took place with the Tsuu Tina. I am waiting until I see some real concrete designs. I just dont want to see a bunch of garbage and shit blowing down into that beautiful, hot, sunny valley. Im sure if it is done in the right way, it could be a successful design.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by kw5150

I personally dont want anything going over my drinking water that involves vehicles. .

We already do.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

We already do.

I would assume that the SWRR over the weaslehead (if that is where it is going to go) would have the same hazardous material restriction as the Glenmore causeway does?