Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[m0nkyman]

Looks like the agency is acting as intended. Rights of way were granted for railways and quite often in the past were created by eminent domain so as to create a useful public good. Discontinuing that public good is a breach of the social contract that created them.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

Looks like the agency is acting as intended. Rights of way were granted for railways and quite often in the past were created by eminent domain so as to create a useful public good. Discontinuing that public good is a breach of the social contract that created them.

I agree. There was paperwork that needed to be done and the city didn't do it.

The whole thing is just silly though. Moose is nowhere near being in any sort of position to use the bridge, so now they have forced the city to discontinue or sink money into infrastructure nobody has a viable plan to use.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I agree. There was paperwork that needed to be done and the city didn't do it.

The whole thing is just silly though. Moose is nowhere near being in any sort of position to use the bridge, so now they have forced the city to discontinue or sink money into infrastructure nobody has a viable plan to use.

Good Day.

Afraid I have to agree. All I can see for now is what I posted on the Rural Commuter Rail thread (1267) - Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles5

But crossing the river only to transfer again is exactly what happens at the moment, only at Lebreton, for thousands of people every day.

Unfortunately that's a reality of having two separate transit systems constrained by only a few intersecting points.

.....

There is one big risk in having STO buses do the river crossing at POW. That is that the rail line would need to be discontinued. This would mean that the possibility exists that the POW Bridge would have to be offered for sale for potential use by another rail company first and there is the chance that another entity could actually take ownership of the Bridge.

Good Day.

Absolutely correct. Bridge gone, Opportunity gone.

And thus.... the only quick answer, at the least cost, to both retain the bridge and sample the demand, is to institute the single-track test/pilot service as noted by Eric Darwin of WestSideAction. It would get everybody off our backs and potentially begin the drive to a proper link. (Jimbo notwithstanding.)
They would have to put rail in from the north end of the now new T-Line to C-Line platform, to a new 2001-type platform just to the north, and then reconnect to the south end of the PoW. Run across the bridge to a 2001-type platform on the south side of Tache at the end of the Rapibus line, maybe even with a 2001-type bus platform for the Tache and Rapibus buses to turn into. Yes, the bridge still needs to be refurbished (needs to be done at the least anyway), but the rest is 2001 O-Train pilot cheap. We still have 2 and a half Talents (one to run, one spare, one-half as spare parts), and no signalling requirements with just one shuttle back-and-forth.
Leave service to Les Terrasses Chaudiere as a future possibility. We need a quickie now.
First expansion would be to double-track Lemieux Island to allow two train service. Still need only two operational trains, even if one goes down.
AS for the MUP - a pathway between the two platform ends will do, as there is no service between the two platforms, just the train transferring twice a day.

Problem solved.

UnQuote.

Not the most optimal, and yes, it does require sinking cash, but Jimbo has been neglecting the PoW hoping it would disintegrate. Now, like those dead-beat property owners he likes to denegrate, he will be forced to do something/anything rather than take the heat in an election cycle to discontinue and loose it in full public view.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I agree. There was paperwork that needed to be done and the city didn't do it.

The whole thing is just silly though. Moose is nowhere near being in any sort of position to use the bridge, so now they have forced the city to discontinue or sink money into infrastructure nobody has a viable plan to use.

The city is planning to use it at some point. The CTA has just shaken up the timelines involved. Sooner or later, money will be spent on the bridge one way or another.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The city is planning to use it at some point. The CTA has just shaken up the timelines involved. Sooner or later, money will be spent on the bridge one way or another.

They have had the bridge for 20 years and done nothing. Nor is there a viable plan for the bridge in the works. And with three incompatible transit technologies abutting the bridge it doesn't really make sense to run transit over the bridge. As several have pointed out it will add two transfers for most people without much benefit. I think the CTA has pushed the city into discontinuing the line.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They have had the bridge for 20 years and done nothing. Nor is there a viable plan for the bridge in the works. And with three incompatible transit technologies abutting the bridge it doesn't really make sense to run transit over the bridge. As several have pointed out it will add two transfers for most people without much benefit. I think the CTA has pushed the city into discontinuing the line.

Lebreton Flats has been empty for nearly 60 years but that doesn't mean future plans are impossible (in fact, there's one in the works right now!)

Running transit across the bridge and providing pedestrian usage makes the most sense out of all possible options. Even if it means another transfer it still provides very reliable way to cross the river. When done right, transfers aren't really a big deal, but Ottawa is too accustomed to 0 transfer milk runs. (They may be three different types of services, but all three are very high frequency services.)

In the future, any train service could be extended along the existing Rapibus corridor (even using existing tracks too). If you think that it's not OC Transpo's job to provide interprovincial transit service, then I would suggest thinking about it in a different way. Capital Railway is a federally regulated railway and OC Transpo operates its trains. If costs were adequately split between cities, then Capital Railway could fulfill the roll of providing interprovincial rail service and OC Transpo could continue managing its operations.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Lebreton Flats has been empty for nearly 60 years but that doesn't mean future plans are impossible (in fact, there's one in the works right now!)

Running transit across the bridge and providing pedestrian usage makes the most sense out of all possible options. Even if it means another transfer it still provides very reliable way to cross the river. When done right, transfers aren't really a big deal, but Ottawa is too accustomed to 0 transfer milk runs. (They may be three different types of services, but all three are very high frequency services.)

In the future, any train service could be extended along the existing Rapibus corridor (even using existing tracks too). If you think that it's not OC Transpo's job to provide interprovincial transit service, then I would suggest thinking about it in a different way. Capital Railway is a federally regulated railway and OC Transpo operates its trains. If costs were adequately split between cities, then Capital Railway could fulfill the roll of providing interprovincial rail service and OC Transpo could continue managing its operations.

And if capital railways discontinues the track they can apply for a provincial license - no more vexatious litigation from Mr. Potvin, no tens of millions in costs to Ottawa taxpayers, no doing the federal government's job for them and no more dealing with the CTA.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And if capital railways discontinues the track they can apply for a provincial license - no more vexatious litigation from Mr. Potvin, no tens of millions in costs to Ottawa taxpayers, no doing the federal government's job for them and no more dealing with the CTA.

Sabotaging MOOSE at the cost of a very valuable piece of transportation infrastructure? What a great idea...

You aren't even trying to argue that the bridge doesn't have any sort of transportation value, you just seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against MOOSE.

You could argue forever whether this type of project is the responsibility of Ottawa, Gatineau, or the federal government. But, I think the simplest way to settle it is that it requires the collaboration of all three. More than that, they'd probably have to go to the federal government about it since the feds aren't in the business of micromanaging municipal transit.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Sabotaging MOOSE at the cost of a very valuable piece of transportation infrastructure? What a great idea...

You aren't even trying to argue that the bridge doesn't have any sort of transportation value, you just seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against MOOSE.

You could argue forever whether this type of project is the responsibility of Ottawa, Gatineau, or the federal government. But, I think the simplest way to settle it is that it requires the collaboration of all three. More than that, they'd probably have to go to the federal government about it since the feds aren't in the business of micromanaging municipal transit.

It is not a valuable piece of transportation infrastructure. It is a rusty old bridge that needs massive amounts of money sunk into it, some rusty old track that hasn't been used for passenger rail in decades (and probably needs to be totally replaced). If the five governments ever agree on a plan they can build a bridge that would actually be functional. If the NCC wants to take it over and maintain it then great. It should not be the city of Ottawa's problem.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is not a valuable piece of transportation infrastructure. It is a rusty old bridge that needs massive amounts of money sunk into it, some rusty old track that hasn't been used for passenger rail in decades (and probably needs to be totally replaced). If the five governments ever agree on a plan they can build a bridge that would actually be functional. If the NCC wants to take it over and maintain it then great. It should not be the city of Ottawa's problem.

Is public transit across the river not important to you?

What's the definition of "massive amounts of money"? Current estimates are that it would be around $60 million to repair the bridge and cantilever pedestrian walkways on either side. I'm not an expert on bridge costs, but I would imagine that the cost of demolishing the existing bridge, and then building a brand new bridge would be much much more than just repairing it.

My personal opinion is that the costs of repairing the bridge and operating trains across it should be split, but I don't see what's wrong with the city of Ottawa taking a lead role in that. Obviously you don't want your tax dollars going towards it, but you're not solely funding the city are you? Whether it should be the city's responsibility is clearly going to be a hot topic, but the fact is that the city has shown every indication that they want to keep, and use the bridge.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Is public transit across the river not important to you?

What's the definition of "massive amounts of money"? Current estimates are that it would be around $60 million to repair the bridge and cantilever pedestrian walkways on either side. I'm not an expert on bridge costs, but I would imagine that the cost of demolishing the existing bridge, and then building a brand new bridge would be much much more than just repairing it.

My personal opinion is that the costs of repairing the bridge and operating trains across it should be split, but I don't see what's wrong with the city of Ottawa taking a lead role in that. Obviously you don't want your tax dollars going towards it, but you're not solely funding the city are you? Whether it should be the city's responsibility is clearly going to be a hot topic, but the fact is that the city has shown every indication that they want to keep, and use the bridge.

The PoW bridge is not particularly useful for public transportation as numerous people have pointed out. Quebec commuters have to take a bus well west of downtown, wait for an o-train, take the train for one stop, wait for a Confederation train' take that back east. That is way worse than the 5 minute bus ride to downtown. Ontario residents have to take the train to Bayview, wait for a train, go one stop, wait for a bus. Again this is worse than 5 minutes on a bus. This is possibly useful for some Alymer residents, Ontario residents who work at place de Chaudiere and maybe Carleton students who live in Quebec. That is a pretty small subset of the region's population. This is something rail fans will take once for instagram purposes.

Why should the city of Ottawa play a lead role in an interprovincial transportation transit project? Interprovincial transportation is a federal responsibility. Interprovincial commuting is skewed towards Gatineau residents.

Whose cost estimate is $60M?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The PoW bridge is not particularly useful for public transportation as numerous people have pointed out. Quebec commuters have to take a bus well west of downtown, wait for an o-train, take the train for one stop, wait for a Confederation train' take that back east. That is way worse than the 5 minute bus ride to downtown. Ontario residents have to take the train to Bayview, wait for a train, go one stop, wait for a bus. Again this is worse than 5 minutes on a bus. This is possibly useful for some Alymer residents, Ontario residents who work at place de Chaudiere and maybe Carleton students who live in Quebec. That is a pretty small subset of the region's population. This is something rail fans will take once for instagram purposes.

Why should the city of Ottawa play a lead role in an interprovincial transportation transit project? Interprovincial transportation is a federal responsibility. Interprovincial commuting is skewed towards Gatineau residents.

Whose cost estimate is $60M?

A quick Google search shows that it takes 15-20 minutes to cross the river from Taché to downtown Ottawa. I would estimate that train or bus would take the same amount of time, but one would reduce traffic downtown. Then of course, there's the possibility of extending it along the Rapibus corridor, but I don't think anyone wants to leave the bridge abandoned for another 20 years.

Why should the city run buses into Gatineau? I don't believe the federal government ordered them to. The feds aren't too concerned about what is essentially municipal transit. The only reason this would be at the federal level is because there just happens to be a provincial border in between the two cities. VIA is more up the federal government's alley since it involves inter city transit between cities that aren't only separated by a few hundred metres of water.

$60 million is MOOSE's estimate

Edit: Consider a city like Lloydminster. Should it be the Federal government's job to manage their municipal transit for them simply because half the city is in a different province? (Assuming Lloydminster was big enough to support public transit).
My point is that the federal goverment isn't constantly looking into municiaplities to plan their transit. The NCC hasn't really ever been a part of transit planning. You can certainly make a case that since it's interprovincial, it's the federal government's job, but it's still basically a municipal project.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A quick Google search shows that it takes 15-20 minutes to cross the river from Taché to downtown Ottawa. I would estimate that train or bus would take the same amount of time, but one would reduce traffic downtown. Then of course, there's the possibility of extending it along the Rapibus corridor, but I don't think anyone wants to leave the bridge abandoned for another 20 years.

Why should the city run buses into Gatineau? I don't believe the federal government ordered them to. The feds aren't too concerned about what is essentially municipal transit. The only reason this would be at the federal level is because there just happens to be a provincial border in between the two cities. VIA is more up the federal government's alley since it involves inter city transit between cities that aren't only separated by a few hundred metres of water.

$60 million is MOOSE's estimate

Edit: Consider a city like Lloydminster. Should it be the Federal government's job to manage their municipal transit for them simply because half the city is in a different province? (Assuming Lloydminster was big enough to support public transit).
My point is that the federal goverment isn't constantly looking into municiaplities to plan their transit. The NCC hasn't really ever been a part of transit planning. You can certainly make a case that since it's interprovincial, it's the federal government's job, but it's still basically a municipal project.

It is 5 minutes from downtown Gatineau to downtown Ottawa. It would be a huge waste of time for commuters to re-route to the west. Even people coming from the west there is no way those two transfers plus waiting time would take under 15 minutes. Commuters would demand the busses stay so it would not reduce downtown traffic.

The federal government owns all of the other interprovincial bridges in Ottawa (including those used for transit). It operates bridges in Montreal and Kingston just because they pass over navigable waterways. It also subsidizes interprovincial ferry services on the east coast. If it is purely a municipal project then it is of no value to Ottawa and very limited value to Gatineau.

Mr. Potvin was quite adamant his estimates were very preliminary so I would not assume the 60M is very precise. Also 60M is a huge amount to spend for a project with so few beneficiaries.

[Acajack]

I see the PoW almost like a boutique project for a subsequent phase once the bread and butter issues are addressed and we might be looking to further consolidate the region's transit offerings.

It would be like the REM in Montreal as opposed to the orange and green lines that are the backbone of the system.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

And if capital railways discontinues the track they can apply for a provincial license - no more vexatious litigation from Mr. Potvin, no tens of millions in costs to Ottawa taxpayers, no doing the federal government's job for them and no more dealing with the CTA.

You are wrong there, Ontario laws on Railways are identical to Federal laws. So The city has no choice to fix the bridge if they don't want MOOSE to have it

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is 5 minutes from downtown Gatineau to downtown Ottawa. It would be a huge waste of time for commuters to re-route to the west. Even people coming from the west there is no way those two transfers plus waiting time would take under 15 minutes. Commuters would demand the busses stay so it would not reduce downtown traffic.

The federal government owns all of the other interprovincial bridges in Ottawa (including those used for transit). It operates bridges in Montreal and Kingston just because they pass over navigable waterways. It also subsidizes interprovincial ferry services on the east coast. If it is purely a municipal project then it is of no value to Ottawa and very limited value to Gatineau.

Mr. Potvin was quite adamant his estimates were very preliminary so I would not assume the 60M is very precise. Also 60M is a huge amount to spend for a project with so few beneficiaries.

I don't know where you get the idea its 5 min to Downtown Ottawa by bus from Downtown Gatineau. Its always 15 to 20 min and i live in the downtown area. They way the STO set up there routes its very stupid if you ask me. There use to be 2 routes that went right into the byward market by crossing the Alexandria bridge that would fit your 5 min and they were routes 31 and 21. 21 got canceled and the 31 takes a long way around onto maisoneuve then going onto king edward via autoroute 5. The other routes i have to walk to 15 to 20 minutes just to get to the bus stop so by the time in downtown Ottawa, 40 min has passed.

The only time i get direct bus access in a reasonable time 4 min walk, is during the morning rush hour using suburban express routes and even then its still a 10 to 15 bus ride to downtown Ottawa

[Acajack]

Well, it depends what you define as downtown to downtown, but STO's Planibus which shows schedules for all its routes shows the trip time from Promenade to Portage in Hull to the corner of Wellington and Bank in Ottawa is 8 minutes. I've taken it quite a few times and that sounds about right. Sometimes a few minutes more, and sometimes a few minutes faster even.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You are wrong there, Ontario laws on Railways are identical to Federal laws. So The city has no choice to fix the bridge if they don't want MOOSE to have it

You're misunderstanding the order of operations here.

If Ottawa wants to discontinue part of the line the line (presumably everything North of the station)

It files the appropriate notification.
Another railway or municipality has the option to buy the line (based on a specific formula for cost).
If another railway or municipality doesn't want the line, remaining tracks are pulled up for scrap (after the necessary procedures).
Since capital railways is no longer an inter-provincial railways, it can get a provincial license and no longer be under the jurisdiction of the CTA.

At no point does it have to repair the bridge under federal or provincial law.

This isn't rocket science, railways are abandoned all of the time.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

You are wrong there, Ontario laws on Railways are identical to Federal laws. So The city has no choice to fix the bridge if they don't want MOOSE to have it

Can you please name the identical federal and provincial laws?

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Can you please name the identical federal and provincial laws?

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-10.4/page-20.html#h-73

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/95s02

Those laws look exactly the same to me