CHICAGO | Politics and Current Events

[Via Chicago]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Maybe part of it, but the "Heroin Highway" is currently one of the major issues and how many gangs are there selling and vying for drug money. Austin alone has over 13% of all city homicides this year (in 2006 at this time, that percentage was half of what it is today). When you add in the Garfield Parks and North Lawndale, it's 27% of all homicides in the city for a population of only about 173,000.Of course you also have West Englewood, Englewood, New City, Auburn Gresham, and Greater Grand Crossing together with a population of about 192,000 which make up about 30% of all city homicides this year. Such a disparity - but of course the media wouldn't pick up on that. They'd love everyone to believe the entire city is burning.

Who do you think is buying the drugs? News flash: its not confined to those living in the areas that serve as distribution hubs. Its all walks of life, from all income levels, from all parts of the city. Philip Seymour Hoffman died of a heroin overdose. Get this notion that its all just junkies laying on lower wacker out of your head. I know plenty of people making 6 figures who dont think twice about pulling out coke at a party...somehow theyre not demonized though. Funny how that works.

We are all CHICAGO. These issues are not confined by imaginary neighborhood boundaries. This city needs to take a long hard cold look in the mirror for why it is the way it is, and that includes citizens at every level. It certainly is a convenient argument to just say "those people" lack morals, while creating, reinforcing, and benefiting from the conditions that arise from having an oppressed underclass. Bunch of people born on third base thinking they hit home runs. (and before I get the inevitable "but i grew up poor and pulled myself up by my bootstraps!"...congratulations. maybe it would also be helpful to be cognizant of the fact that not everyone was born with the same abilities).

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Who do you think is buying the drugs? News flash: its not confined to those living in the areas that serve as distribution hubs. Its all walks of life, from all income levels, from all parts of the city. Philip Seymour Hoffman died of a heroin overdose. Get this notion that its all just junkies laying on lower wacker out of your head. I know plenty of people making 6 figures who dont think twice about pulling out coke at a party...somehow theyre not demonized though. Funny how that works.

We are all CHICAGO. These issues are not confined by imaginary neighborhood boundaries. This city needs to take a long hard cold look in the mirror for why it is the way it is, and that includes citizens at every level.

LOL - wait, when did I EVER say it is the people who live there buying? Anybody who knows anything about the Heroin Highway knows a lot of the demand comes from the suburbs actually (and a lot of the time it's more middle class white kids buying it up) and people from all walks of life use drugs. Do you seriously think I don't know this? At the end of the day, it's the market and the creation of that market in particular areas which is fucking up some communities.

At the end of the day, it is a narrative that needs to be told regardless of who's using the drugs. Maybe you're sensitive to it, but when you literally have 30% of all city homicides (and a lot of them) occurring in one area (well two areas, individually really), you have a huge issue whether it's economically at the core of it all or safety-wise. While it might be an issue with various city wide policies, it is still a story that needs to be told - unless you want to scare everyone into thinking that the entire city is dangerous when it's not, and actually a large part of it is not. You can debate all you want, but the facts speak for themselves. We can go into a huge discussion - yeah there's a market of all walks of life - everybody with half a brain who knows anything about crime and drugs knows this.


BTW - my brother is a former drug dealer, who was once addicted to Heroin for a little bit (NOT in Chicago area). I'm very well aware of this shit.

[Via Chicago]

Im mainly referring to comments like

Nah. The cause in violence is the low character of the shameless scum who think it's okay to do drive by shootings in the presence of children.

The CAUSE of the violence is a privileged class who dosent have to deal with the day to day shit on the ground. But thats an inconvenient truth.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

Who do you think is buying the drugs? News flash: its not confined to those living in the areas that serve as distribution hubs. Its all walks of life, from all income levels, from all parts of the city. Philip Seymour Hoffman died of a heroin overdose. Get this notion that its all just junkies laying on lower wacker out of your head. I know plenty of people making 6 figures who dont think twice about pulling out coke at a party...somehow theyre not demonized though. Funny how that works.

We are all CHICAGO. These issues are not confined by imaginary neighborhood boundaries. This city needs to take a long hard cold look in the mirror for why it is the way it is, and that includes citizens at every level. It certainly is a convenient argument to just say "those people" lack morals, while creating, reinforcing, and benefiting from the conditions that arise from having an oppressed underclass. Bunch of people born on third base thinking they hit home runs. (and before I get the inevitable "but i grew up poor and pulled myself up by my bootstraps!"...congratulations. maybe it would also be helpful to be cognizant of the fact that not everyone was born with the same abilities).

Oh cry me a river. Always with the sympathy. I don't care what walk of life you came from. These scum are shooting up toddlers and grandmas. Put them in jail and throw away the key. Your apologetic, introspective meditation on this issue does nothing to stop murders, it just enables it further.

If you guys want to carry this on we can do so in the Chicago Politics sub thread, as I'm sure this discussion is becoming off topic.

[prelude91]

Originally Posted by marothisu

Maybe part of it, but the "Heroin Highway" is currently one of the major issues and how many gangs are there selling and vying for drug money. Austin alone has over 13% of all city homicides this year (in 2006 at this time, that percentage was half of what it is today). When you add in the Garfield Parks and North Lawndale, it's 27% of all homicides in the city for a population of only about 173,000.Of course you also have West Englewood, Englewood, New City, Auburn Gresham, and Greater Grand Crossing together with a population of about 192,000 which make up about 30% of all city homicides this year. Such a disparity - but of course the media wouldn't pick up on that. They'd love everyone to believe the entire city is burning.

Interestingly enough though, crimes like Assaults are actually down from a decade ago even with this spike in crime. It's homicides that are up a bit to late-ish 90s numbers.

Not picking on your post, but why do we justify our embarrassingly high murder count by saying it is restricted to a small portion of the city? Shouldn't that make the situation even that much more urgent? I understand less people are impacted when it is contained, but my god, we have really let portions of this city rot away...

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by prelude91

Not picking on your post, but why do we justify our embarrassingly high murder count by saying it is restricted to a small portion of the city? Shouldn't that make the situation even that much more urgent? I understand less people are impacted when it is contained, but my god, we have really let portions of this city rot away...

I don't think anybody justifies the high murder count, but it is a way of defending from people who think the entire city is dangerous. That is the truth of it is, but my post was not trying to turn a blind eye to the issues we face. It is merely showing that it is not necessarily as spread out this year (at least for homicide - point is that those 58 homicides in the past would have been about 30 homicides in Austin and the 28 elsewhere - this year it's way up percentage wise there) than most people might think. It's actually more centralized to these areas this year than other years. It is a big issue - and obviously there's a big reason for why that needs to be fixed.

[Skyguy_7]

You're not alone in thinking that way, TUP. Subsidized housing is only meant to be a temporary supplement to get people back on their feet, when in reality, it creates little incentive to move up and out. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for a lifetime. Give a man a fish, and he'll vote for you.

[Via Chicago]

i think we're in agreement. but its why i get pretty defensive when people pin the condition of the city on certain people or neighborhoods (and go so far as to consider them less than human, as if these conditions were created in a vacuum) while conveniently leaving out the other (and arguably more responsible) half of the equation.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

i think we're in agreement. but its why i get pretty defensive when people pin the condition of the city on certain people or neighborhoods while conveniently leaving out the other half of the equation.

I wasn't trying to pin it on the people of those neighborhoods - my point was that no matter who is contributing to the violence - the violence is occurring in those particular neighborhoods which is a huge issue. One of the things that pisses me off is how people don't understand the impacts. My friend is friends with a wealthy family from the suburbs - and one of their friends' son died of a heroin overdose (also from a wealthy family). We had a discussion about it, and when I told them about the impacts and who's buying in Chicago, indirectly contributing to the violence they had zero idea. Now they're more well aware (well hopefully they remember...)

[Via Chicago]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKp8OV6F64

7:31

"We actually dont like the way we live. But when youre pushed into a way of life, when youre forced into a way of life, how else can you live?"

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKp8OV6F64

7:31

"We actually dont like the way we live. But when youre pushed into a way of life, when youre forced into a way of life, how else can you live?"

Yeah yeah I've seen the clip of that old man. Everybody keeps pointing to that. Does it make you feel better that you got a little cathartic cry out of that? Good for you.

It's obviously sad, but he's a victim, he's who we should be protecting, not the perpetrators. I'm sure his generation wasn't going around murdering toddlers though. But I guess that's somehow my fault.

[the urban politician]

^ No, my problem is with your (and others who make this argument) continued insistence on blaming white people for the actions of thugs.

Countless African Americans did quite well in Chicago. Many are still around, but a hell of a lot simply left. They don't want to live next to gangbangers, and I don't blame them.

You see, gangbangers have low moral character. They probably either had horrible parents or barely saw their parents. They have no scruples about shooting you in the face for $20. I am not to blame for their existence, although I understand that they are employed within the illegal drug trade. A hell of a lot of people don't do drugs either. Stop trying to make everybody feel guilty.

[Via Chicago]

If you dont seem the obvious connection Im not sure what else to say. I suppose ignorance of ones' complicity is bliss.

also, this goes beyond buying drugs. supporting policies and politicians that have allowed these conditions to ferment plays just as large of a role. where do you think all of these firearms are coming from? why are we the only developed country in the world that has these levels of gun related homicides? (thats a rhetorical question, btw. although im quite confident the rise of the NRA and national lobbying for looser gun restrictions played no role at all).

you say those kids came from broken families without fathers? maybe thats because we had politicians (elected by the electorate) who thought putting young black men away at rates far higher than whites (due to harsher sentencing for crack vs coke) played a little role. and how convenient, heres an emerging for profit prison industry ready to accommodate them! hey look honey, our 401k is up...

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Via Chicago

If you dont seem the obvious connection Im not sure what else to say. I suppose ignorance of ones' complicity is bliss.

also, this goes beyond buying drugs. supporting policies and politicians that have allowed these conditions to ferment plays just as large of a role. where do you think all of these firearms are coming from? why are we the only developed country in the world that has these levels of gun related homicides? (thats a rhetorical question, btw. although im quite confident the rise of the NRA and national lobbying for looser gun restrictions played no role at all).

you say those kids came from broken families without fathers? maybe thats because we had politicians (elected by the electorate) who thought putting young black men away at rates far higher than whites (due to harsher sentencing for crack vs coke) played a little role.

Now we're talking. You and I are 100% in agreement on the issue of firearms. Why America has in its DNA this silly idea that everybody gets to have a gun beats the hell out of me. Biggest mistake of the Founding Fathers. And we keep paying the price

Regarding the rest of your post, it's the same old drivel. Apologizing for somebody's shameful behavior. You still have to commit crime to go to jail. Why don't you just go to your local jail and just hug all the inmates? Get it over with already

[Via Chicago]

Our policies regarding incarceration play no role in our state of affairs?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/prison-state/

Meanwhile Wall Street got off scott free for literally causing the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. How many bankers went to prison? Last I checked crimes were committed, as you say. Im sure it has nothing to do with the fact that those who committed the crimes wrote the rules (quite literally, through lobbyists).

[the urban politician]

^ Yes disproportionate sentences for lighter crimes. I get it.

But lets keep locking up people who kill toddlers, thank you. Wall St executives fucked things up, perhaps a few people should go to jail for that, sure. Okay fine.

So? What else do you want to declare? Do you want a megaphone? Should we head to Daley Plaza? Should we invite Jesse Jackson? Why on earth would any of this convince me that we shouldn't be locking up people who kill other people?

[Via Chicago]

I dont have anything to declare, other than that the game is rigged in one sides favor, those who have designed it. The truths are self evident to anyone with critical thinking skills. If you think the point of what Im saying is that killers should be let free, then perhaps you should work on yours.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Blaming these problems on demand is the silliest thing I've ever heard:

A. It's not as if most people going to pick up some smack are just casual users out to grab some drugs before a long night of partying on their investment banker yacht. Once you are using Heroin you are hooked, period. The first bag is free, the second is $10, and the more you buy, the higher the unit price goes. Drug dealer economics 101. Step 1: push drugs with a loss leader Step 2: ??? Step 3: Jack the prices up once your customer is hooked. Step 4: Profit. Most of the people being blamed by Via for this are not casual consumers from the suburbs, they are hooked and blowing thousands of dollars irrationally because the reward center of their brain is royally fucked with chemicals.

B. Demand will never go away. Look at Prohibition, look at the War on Drugs. The drug markets in these areas aren't there because evil whiteys from the suburbs want black people to do their dirty work for them so they can have their party drugs. They are there because demand for these substances exists whether the government likes it or not. Banning the substances (rather than decriminalizing and treating) simply drives the prices up and the activity underground. That turns the marketplace into a perfect breeding ground of organized crime and it at the very core of what has destroyed Black America since the 1960's and 70's when Nixon had a hard on for "law and order".


Point being, blaming demand is never a solution and any attempt to curtail demand usually just results in even more negative consequences. The best things we could do as a nation to resolve this problem permanently would be widespread criminal reform in regards to drug crimes combined with actual Federal laws protecting the rights of poor individuals to use their housing vouchers in any community they desire. If we could simultaneously undermine the business model of street gangs and spread out the impoverished to communities that can better serve their needs, then we would start making real progress towards finally integrating African Americans into American society after 100+ years of claiming that's what we want to do while passing legions of laws that suggest otherwise.

[the urban politician]

^ No, your worldview is one where you create a victim complex. The world has been rigged since humans settled into cities.

But let's not be enablers of people who murder. You want me to feel sorry for them. I just plain don't.

[Via Chicago]

A) heroin is merely one drug. True, I dont know many casual users although I suppose some might exist. There are plenty of casual users of other drugs though. Pot, LSD, MDMA, and all sorts of others are used regularly by people from all walks of life.

B) I agree. Hence why I said those responsible for enacting policies that led to a "war on drugs" are complicit in today's current situation. The country backed these policies and thought they were a good idea. More and more drugs are being added to Schedule 1 every day, even those which have the promise of weaning people off opiates, both prescription and otherwise. Case in point:
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-s...government-ban
^and BTW, the thing no one else has acknowledged is that Big Pharma is the biggest drug dealer of all. They have free reign to advertise opiates on TV, wine and dine doctors to sell their products, and then get people hooked.

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