CF Pacific Centre Developments

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by s211

Pretty sure that site [the Bay parkade] is hamstrung with some pretty harsh view cone height limits.

The city has imposed a height limit of 88 metres for this downtown site in the CBD next to the Skytrain station.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The most troubling thins is we could lose the hotel rooms altogether. On top of the Empire Landmark, Inn at False Creek, Coast Denman etc., only replaced by a smaller number of much higher end properties. Every level government talks a good game about tourism, but if we keep losing rooms it will wither.

We don't know what Cadillac are planning here yet. A different hotel operator seems as likely as any other scenario until we hear definitive plans. (Leftcoaster?)

It's not like we've seen only closures, and no openings. We've seen two big Marriott hotels in Parq recently, Hotel Blu opened four years ago, Trump opened in 2016.

Two more are coming soon on West Pender (Exchange, and the new one next door). Amacon have one proposed in the Catholic Charities / Northern Electric building on Robson, the YWCA are adding more rooms on Beatty and Onni have an approved hotel in the False Creek Flats. There's a smaller hotel now being put back under the apartments conversion at the Coast Hotel on Denman.

There has been an open house for a redeveloped and much larger hotel on the Park Inn on West Broadway as well.

As I've noted before, the one gap that I can see is that we haven't seen any budget hotels proposed; they're all medium to high end. The changes and control of Airb&b may make a difference, but land values might push those out to suburban locations. Provided they're close to transit, that probably doesn't matter. While apartment rental vacancies are so low, and rents in new units comparatively high, it seems less likely that we'll see too many proposed on Vancouver arterials, however welcome that would be.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The city has imposed a height limit of 88 metres for this downtown site in the CBD next to the Skytrain station.

This really needs to be challenged. The view cone policy has to be some of the stupidest things ever thought of. It also seems to be counter to the city so desire to be green and sustainable.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

For those that keep ranting about underground connections to Pacific Centre:

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/amazon-ol...-redevelopment-vancouver-economic-impact

Holborn's CEO is a pretty worldly kinda fella. He knows what makes a big city tick and I'm sure he won't disappoint.

Originally Posted by osirisboy

This really needs to be challenged. The view cone policy has to be some of the stupidest things ever thought of. It also seems to be counter to the city so desire to be green and sustainable.

You don't say....

It's very ungreen, and causing a lot of good buildings, including heritage structures, to be knocked down to be replaced by relatively low-density structures.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

For those that keep ranting about underground connections to Pacific Centre:

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/amazon-ol...-redevelopment-vancouver-economic-impact

Sounds great on the surface, but the residential portion is worrying. Hope its not a Vancouver classic "mixed use" consisting of 98% residential and 2% ground floor commercial consisting of a coffee shop.

Second, also worrying about the boasts of "big city" development as we have been down this road before only to have only alright designs come out on the other side. (See Telus Garden hype v. finished product).

Finally, even they truly are planning something that actually competes with something that would actually be significant in a a true "big city" they still have to contend with the City of Vancouver and the Urban Design Peabrains who are more than happy to chop things down to their personal tastes so they're not so "imposing, obtrusive, load etc etc"

But here's hoping its for real this time....

[Vin]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Sounds great on the surface, but the residential portion is worrying. Hope its not a Vancouver classic "mixed use" consisting of 98% residential and 2% ground floor commercial consisting of a coffee shop.

Second, also worrying about the boasts of "big city" development as we have been down this road before only to have only alright designs come out on the other side. (See Telus Garden hype v. finished product).

Finally, even they truly are planning something that actually competes with something that would actually be significant in a a true "big city" they still have to contend with the City of Vancouver and the Urban Design Peabrains who are more than happy to chop things down to their personal tastes so they're not so "imposing, obtrusive, load etc etc"

But here's hoping its for real this time....

Look at how Holborn/TA Global added retail units to the Fortis building beside Trump, including helping to set up 49th Parallel cafe at the Fortis lobby. For a place where no retail was originally planned, that's quite an achievement. Therefore I have no qualms about the "boasts".

I suspect Holborn would plunk a mall there at the Bay Parkade site.

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The city has imposed a height limit of 88 metres for this downtown site in the CBD next to the Skytrain station.

The civic election is coming up soon. There is hope for a review of the site.

Even Vision is now starting to realize their prior stupidity by scrambling to allow certain new areas like the Oakridge and East Fraserland neighbourhoods to have towers go much higher. A little too late for them I would say.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The city has imposed a height limit of 88 metres for this downtown site in the CBD next to the Skytrain station.

This site is one considered under the taller buildings policy allowing for up to 700ish feet and a potential to penetrate certain view cones.

Originally Posted by Changing City

We don't know what Cadillac are planning here yet. A different hotel operator seems as likely as any other scenario until we hear definitive plans. (Leftcoaster?)

No comment.

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's not like we've seen only closures, and no openings. We've seen two big Marriott hotels in Parq recently, Hotel Blu opened four years ago, Drumpf opened in 2016.

Two more are coming soon on West Pender (Exchange, and the new one next door). Amacon have one proposed in the Catholic Charities / Northern Electric building on Robson, the YWCA are adding more rooms on Beatty and Onni have an approved hotel in the False Creek Flats. There's a smaller hotel now being put back under the apartments conversion at the Coast Hotel on Denman.

I posted a while back in the Onni on Howe development thread that there is a substantial net gain in hotel rooms that looks to continue in Vancouver. While the lower end is definitely losing rooms, it is mainly the result of high land prices and Airbnb killing their business in dense areas like downtown Van.

Originally Posted by Vin

I suspect Holborn would plunk a mall there at the Bay Parkade site.

Given what you consider a mall, yes it will likely have more than 2 CRUs...

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

This site is one considered under the taller buildings policy allowing for up to 700ish feet and a potential to penetrate certain view cones.

I wish that were the case, but you are confusing a proposal made by city staff many years ago to amend the General Policy For Higher Buildings with the actual policy today.

In 2010, city staff tabled a report to council recommending three downtown higher building sites which would impact protected views in addition to the Queen Elizabeth Park viewcone. The Bay parkade was one of those sites. City council, however, rejected the recommendation and formally reaffirmed the inflexibe application of the Cambie Street and Cambie Bridge view corridors. Consequently, the few sites potentially permitted for higher buildings under the current General Policy For Higher Buildings do not encroach on any of the city-created viewcones other than the Queen Elizabeth Park viewcone.

[LeftCoaster]

Yes you are correct viewcone 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 still overlay the site, however there are some things going on at the city that may cause this to no longer be an issue.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

The city has imposed a height limit of 88 metres for this downtown site in the CBD next to the Skytrain station.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

This site is one considered under the taller buildings policy allowing for up to 700ish feet and a potential to penetrate certain view cones.

Wow, in other words, the Bay parkade site could have a 600>700 footer on it ?! That'd be fantastic!! .... as long as the design complements neighboring buildings.
Atypical for Vancouver, but exciting to consider, as Vancouver finds itself being drawn into the mainstream of 'big city' cities.
(as opposed to the "branchplant town" often derided by Torontonians.)

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Yes you are correct viewcone 9.1.2 and 9.1.3 still overlay the site, however there are some things going on at the city that may cause this to no longer be an issue.

Yeah, what's that? Rumblings about possibly allowing a taller building on Concord's Northeast False Creek site? As you know, however, city staff just quashed a request to build taller on the adjacent Plaza of Nations site on grounds of Cambie Street and Cambie Bridge viewcones.

If there is a material change afoot in city policy, it would be nice to hear about it.

[officedweller]

It would be nice if Council passed an exemption from view cone requirements for developments within,
say, 100 metres of a SkyTrain Station (i.e. essentially "on top of" the station).
That could be a politically justifiable trade-off between transit-oriented development and view cones.

That would solve problems at the proposed Waterfront Hub and for the Bay Parkade (and HBC Building?) sites.

[Prometheus]

A theory regarding LeftCoaster's comment:

Despite its longstanding obstinate attitude on viewcones, maybe the city realizes it would be almost criminally negligent to restrict development to six floors at the site of what will be one of the busiest rapid transit nodes in the entire city: Broadway and Cambie.

As part of the upcoming Broadway Corridor Plan, the city might finally be relenting to common sense and planning a variance to viewcones 9.1 and 9.2, allowing for a scale of development much more appropriate (and necessary) for this vital commercial intersection. This variance could either formally narrow the width of the Cambie Street viewcone so that it no longer passed over the southwest corner of Broadway and Cambie, inadvertently freeing-up the Bay parkade site, which also sits under the western end of the viewcone--or make a special exception for a transit-integrated development on the southwest corner of Broadway and Cambie, which would have the effect of creating a tall viewcone shadow over the Bay parkade site, freeing-up that site under the current General Policy For Higher Buildings, since the only protected view a taller building there would impact is the one from Queen Elizabeth Park.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It would be nice if Council passed an exemption from view cone requirements for developments within,
say, 100 metres of a SkyTrain Station (i.e. essentially "on top of" the station).
That could be a politically justifiable trade-off between transit-oriented development and view cones.

That would solve problems at the proposed Waterfront Hub and for the Bay Parkade (and HBC Building?) sites.

Great idea, and one that makes just too much sense for it not to be official policy.

That whole area (The Bay + parkade, Scotia Tower + new office building + Pacific Centre) has not one but 2 mass transit lines running right underneath/by them that calls for maximum height and density in order to maximize transit use. It just makes too much sense not to do that

[s211]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

A theory regarding LeftCoaster's comment:

Despite its longstanding obstinate attitude on viewcones, maybe the city realizes it would be almost criminally negligent to restrict development to six floors at the site of what will be one of the busiest rapid transit nodes in the entire city: Broadway and Cambie.

My counter-theory. Bureaucrats and politicians are so narcissistic that they think views toward/from city hall are as sacred as can be. They are gods on earth, after all; it's all about them.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by s211

My counter-theory. Bureaucrats and politicians are so narcissistic that they think views toward/from city hall are as sacred as can be. They are gods on earth, after all; it's all about them.

Politicians are narcissistic so they require 700 feet edifices to make their mark.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by logan5

interesting shot with The Exchange building in the background. The facades are going to be almost identical. 1133 Melville is going to end looking like this as well.

It's the onslaught of the International Style (think Guinness Tower and Oceanic Plaza, as well).

Pic by me Saturday:

[LeftCoaster]

I don't really see how The Exchange looks like 609 Granville.

Very different shades of glass to begin with and the Exchange is dark spandrel + primarily vertical expression vs white spandrel and primarily horizontal at 609. expression.

[officedweller]

Pic by me of the Howe St. side today.

PS - The indentations that look like skylights probably were windows/skylights in the original layout.
That was the location of the food court when the mall opened, and I recall it having a "sunken" seating area in the middle
and food kiosks around the perimeter.

PPS - Look, it's a green wall! (without all the costly infrastructure)

[nickbeaulieu]

the original food court was where sephora is now? I thought the original was the underground one where the atrium and waterfall were located (now Holt Renfrew)