Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

I think it's a bit sketchy to spend public money on pro sports and very strange to build a CFL stadium for a nonexistent team. If a team is established it should have to pay to use the facility, but we're not even to that point yet.

Presumably the stadium group will investigate actual uses for a stadium and produce a cost-benefit analysis. Basically they need to come up with reasons why the HRM could use a stadium today.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

No, we totally agree on the need for a build. I think a modest stadium is appropriate, something bigger than Moncton, as we are 3 times the size. Moncton spent 17 mil, so we will end up spending 50-60, I suspect. EDIT OMG I agree with Moncton Rad too. God. Do we have a consensus of the somewhat sane people on the Board on this issue?

That said, if you want CFL, you need a stadium that is bigger/better than that. It's not just about seats and a field, the ancillary revenue is what makes a franchise work or not. So if we go modest and affordable, I contend that we will not be able to support a CFL team.

But then again, I contend that we (or Moncton) can't support a team at all because of our population, so don't listen to me.

I think that we do have a consensus on a modestly priced stadium. As opposed to the disagreements on location, I think the majority of people do agree that a stadium should be built modestly. I don't think that a stadium should be built specifically to attract a CFL team. However, building a stadium that is upgradable in the future to accommodate a CFL team would be a good idea.

In my opinion, the best stadium design will be one that is designed to minimize construction cost and maintenance, while resulting in a facility that will see maximum use. I think the planning stage of building a stadium is a very important stage. (and it has now begun at the municipal level, so I am happy ).

One decision that will have to be made is - should the stadium be:
a) a 10,000 - 15,000 seat permanent structure with frills (example - totally enclosed heated concourses, folding seats, etc.)
b) 20,000 - 25,000 seat permanent structure with few frills (example - non-heated, but sheltered concourses; bench or single piece non-folding seats, etc). Although having the concourses totally enclosed, or not, might seem like a trivial matter, the building code requirements will be significantly different and more costly for totally enclosed concourses. Having washrooms and concessions distributed equally throughout the stadium concourses will increase the cost. Having washrooms and concessions centralized in only a couple locations in the stadium will decrease the cost (and the maintenance cost). Although, option a) is how the expensive stadiums are built, I don't think it will have a big effect on whether people go to events or not (but a roof over the seats will). Having luxury suite and club seats will affect the revenue generating ability of a pro level stadium but it might not be required in a stadium for amateur events (media facilities will be required though).

Personally, I would prefer option b) - 20,000 - 25,000 seat stadium with washrooms/concessions located in a couple centralized locations, and concourses which are sheltered but not totally enclosed. Private suites could be omitted until there is a need to include them.

[TheNovaScotian]

Fenwick, I agree and I'm guessing most people reading this do as well[some chicken little's excluded]. The largest roadblocks I see for this project is the politics. With the election in full swing, Politicians are minding their P's and Q's. What needs to be done to make sure the small support the radically conservative Haligonians are lending this project needs to me re-enforced, like having Mayor Kelly stop talking about it because since the concert fiasco his word is like poison. Or get school gym teachers involved, children are such a force when coordinated to ask questions or put effort into fund raising. The project needs to be less of a pet project of the mayor but be more of a necessity to the average person. I've argued this point with a lot of people most of them are "average" taxpayers and as soon as you tell them their kids might have a better chance at striving to be an athlete that they can watch and look up to, their sold!

As tiring as Wespidels posts can be because "the sky is falling" he does have a point. Nova Scotians have been going deep into governmental debt for years at the cost future generations, when it comes time to give us the barest of infrastructure they do it in spades and tell us we need to pay down the debt.....well its not my debt i was not alive when every dumb witted economic growth idea was taken as gospel. I'm from Cape Breton and seen how well all those ideas worked but when it comes time to give back to the people who have subsidized the rest of the province, we tell them not to get their hopes up and if your lucky you might get stadium.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think that we do have a consensus on a modestly priced stadium. As opposed to the disagreements on location, I think the majority of people do agree that a stadium should be built modestly. I don't think that a stadium should be built specifically to attract a CFL team. However, building a stadium that is upgradable in the future to accommodate a CFL team would be a good idea.

Personally, I would prefer option b) - 20,000 - 25,000 seat stadium with washrooms/concessions located in a couple centralized locations, and concourses which are sheltered but not totally enclosed. Private suites could be omitted until there is a need to include them.

Fenwick, they can always build a modest stadium in the 20,000-25,000 seat range with open concourses and then add a suite/luxury seating tower with heated/cooled concourses later. Many of the US college stadiums (Univ. Akron, Univ. North Texas) that are built for a moderate price include open concourses throughout most of the stadium and closed concourses in their luxury seating tower. Adding a luxury tower at a later date if Halifax gets a CFL team is very practical. Many US Universities have done just that when retrofitting their stadiums.

[1ajs]

Really did this need to turn into a flame war?

Be chill guys

[fenwick16]

Here is an interesting example of a multilevel, open-concourse stadium design (below). It also shows how the washrooms and concession can be centralized in an integrated building attached to the stands (I assume that the washrooms/concessions are in the rounded building in the front). Centralizing the washrooms/concessions is done in many inexpensive stadiums to minimize the stadium complexity (there is no need for plumbing running throughout the stadium, and just the washroom/concession areas need to be heated and enclosed - the stands are then just basic precast components).

This is the Gamla Ullevi Stadium in Sweden - http://www.groundhopping.se/Orgryte.htm . It was built for SEK 335 million or about 53 million US dollars. That works out to about $3000 per seat which sounds about right for an economically built stadium with a roof.

I think that the design possibilities are almost endless - the new Cardiff City Stadium is another example of an economically built stadium that looks good and has all the seats covered.

(source: http://www.groundhopping.se/Orgryte.htm)


In order to keep the price down, I think a low cost stadium will have to be built with concourses that are similar to an open-air (but sheltered) multi-level parking garage. The challenge will be to make the exterior look acceptable. Here is an interesting idea for the exterior - stainless steel expanded mesh (below). Expanded metal is an inexpensive material because of the fabrication method - a flat sheet is stamped with cuts and then the sheet is stretched apart (for example, a 3' x 5' wide sheet could be stretched out to 8' x 4' wide). It can effectively mask the parking garage (or stadium) superstructure while allowing ventilation and protection from birds.

(source: http://www.architecturalwire.com/UofMD.html )


Or a wire mesh weave like at the Halifax International Airport parking garage - HIA parking garage exterior

[fenwick16]

Here is an example of how a football stadium (home of the Miami Dolphins) can be used for baseball (Florida Marlins). A Bing maps link is here - Bing Maps - Bird's Eye View

(source: screen capture from Bing Maps)


Since having removable stands will increase the stadium cost, maybe a possibility would be to have the removable sections built out of steel. Even if it took a couple days to remove these sections, it would leave open the possibility of a stadium hosting some exhibition Blue Jay games and maybe some baseball tournaments. A Canadian football field is wider than an American football field, so such a configuration works even better in Canada. As a side note - it appears as though the upper tier of the stadium has open concourses (this is a way to keep the stadium cost down).

A less ideal configuration is the old Exhibition Stadium configuration in Toronto: (but hopefully a stadium won't be purposely configured like that - it was a short term solution)
(source: http://mopupduty.com/index.php/exhibition-stadium-memoirs/) Here is a link to an image of the old Exhibition Stadium - http://mopupduty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/10331_1195756188141_1655559341_522721_1148399_n.jpg

[Keith P.]

Both of those examples were/are horrible baseball venues. Don't want those.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Both of those examples were/are horrible baseball venues. Don't want those.

I think that the Miami stadium is somewhat different than the general cookie-cutter type football/baseball stadiums in that it is primarily a football stadium that can be used for baseball.

I would think that any stadium in Halifax would be a football stadium first and then it could possibly accommodate baseball. So baseball would be secondary to football/soccer. I believe that Sun Life (Joe Robbie) Stadium is considered to be a decent football stadium.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I believe that Sun Life (Joe Robbie) Stadium is considered to be a decent football stadium.

Spectators complain they are too far away from the sidelines. That is a side effect of it being built to accommodate baseball. Multipurpose stadia are always a compromise and seldom are considered good at any individual use.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Spectators complain they are too far away from the sidelines. That is a side effect of it being built to accommodate baseball. Multipurpose stadia are always a compromise and seldom are considered good at any individual use.

Yes, I have to agree. I just wanted to see what others thought. If the stadium is built in an area with enough space, then sometime in the (distant) future a separate baseball park could be added (maybe 6,000 - 10,000 seats). Then at least the parking could be shared. Kansas City was ahead of its time when it built this complex - Arrowhead Stadium and Kauffman Stadium . Maybe harness racing track could be part of a sports and entertainment district. (It would likely have to be in Burnside though).

PS: A more compact version (and less expensive) version of Joe Robbie (Sun Life) Stadium, is the Stanford Stadium (built recently for $90 million dollars for 50,000 seats). Halifax only needs about half that many seats. I like the Stanford layout below: (it would be better with the upper tier covered, people in the lower tier can go under the upper tier for shelter - like an expanded Events Nova Scotia stadium)

(source: http://www.ami-sf.com/StanfordStadium.htm )

[q12]

I am curious on when we might get some news from the Stadium Committee on some of the directions they are leaning to in regards to Stadium location, size etc.

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=fenwick16;5241727]Yes, I have to agree. I just wanted to see what others thought. If the stadium is built in an area with enough space, then sometime in the (distant) future a separate baseball park could be added (maybe 6,000 - 10,000 seats).

I don't think that Halifax needs a 6,000+ seat baseball stadium anytime in the near future. Many of these new minor league baseball parks can run well over $40 million. I would not plan to add baseball into any stadium design. Football and soccer will be good enough. I still feel that if we get a stadium, it will go more along the lines of a more permanent version of the temporary Empire Stadium in Vancouver. At least it is covered and the design should be affordable.

I doubt that any stadium we build will be heavy into luxury suites and luxury club seats/lounges. Those can add big dollars to a stadium and we need to keep the price of this stadium to be as low as we can in order to sell it to the masses. It will be a lot easier to sell a $60 million stadium with decent concessions/bathrooms but few bell and whistles than a $120 million stadium with luxury suites and club lounges (those can always be added later once we have a CFL team and owner kicking in most of the cost for luxury seating). Unlike some communities across Canada that are on their second or third stadium, we need to crawl before we walk with our first.

[Antigonish]

The thing is Welkin that Luxury Boxes/Suites are what bring stadiums most of their revenue. If you don't bring in sell out crowds week in week out (especially with a 4-14 or overall crap CFL season) then the stadium is losing a lot of money. Luxury suites need to be adequate and plentiful for this to work IMO.

[TedWilliamsHead]

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/1240056.html

Mayor: Stadium partners wanted
Universities seen as funding source
By MICHAEL LIGHTSTONE City Hall Reporter
Mon, Apr 25 - 4:55 AM



If a multi-use stadium is built in the Halifax area, taxpayers, ideally, won’t be footing the whole bill, Mayor Peter Kelly said recently.

The estimated cost will depend on the size of the place, he said, and what amenities may be included at the site.

Regional council in February authorized a $100,000 consultant’s study looking at the business case for the proposed project. Earlier this month, the municipality selected Sierra Planning and Management to work on the study. The Toronto firm is the lead and teaming up with CBCL Ltd. of Halifax and Novita Interpares of Lunenburg on the consultation and business-planning process for the potential facility, said a news release.

City staff have said a stadium could cost up to $60 million, but the mayor said the bottom line is unknown at this point. Kelly said Saturday a few key issues need to be considered.

"It depends on the style, the materials used and, most importantly," the number of venue seats, he said.

Halifax Regional Municipality has appointed a volunteer steering committee to work on the stadium proposal. Kelly said the consultants met with the advisory group, in Halifax, for the first time Wednesday.

Among other things, the committee is to help identify potential sites.

The municipality is one of seven possible hosts in Canada’s plan to put on the FIFA 2015 Women’s World Cup and a test event a year earlier. Host cities are to have a stadium with a minimum seating capacity of 20,000.

Kelly said in order for taxpayers not to have to shoulder the expense by themselves, private-sector companies and other organizations, such as universities and sports associations, would have to come on board, provided the feasibility study concludes the project is viable.

"We’re hopeful that this (stadium) would be financed by many segments of the community."

Late last year, Kelly had "very preliminary" talks with local businesspeople about private sector support for a stadium.

The mayor was also out of town talking to the vice-president of a company that builds modular stadiums and arenas of various sizes and styles. Kelly met with the executive from Nussli Group at a Toronto airport hotel in December.

( [email protected])

[fenwick16]

Thanks for posting this Ted...

It seems as though all the naysayers, or one or two people with many different usernames, were out in force posting their comments today.

[Empire]

Tampa Bay is changing out the 20,000 seats in the St. Pete Times Forum. If the seats could survive our climate or if they aren't fabric lined maybe they could be used for the HRM stadium should they be for sale.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by NISH89

The thing is Welkin that Luxury Boxes/Suites are what bring stadiums most of their revenue. If you don't bring in sell out crowds week in week out (especially with a 4-14 or overall crap CFL season) then the stadium is losing a lot of money. Luxury suites need to be adequate and plentiful for this to work IMO.

I am not saying we don't need luxury boxes, I'm just saying we don't need them right away until we get a CFL team. They can always be added at a later date once we have secured a CFL team. If we can afford them up front, that's fine, but I feel that we are going to have to fight the anti-stadium crowd over this stadium becoming too expensive.

By the way, stadiums don't get most of their revenue from luxury boxes, that is a misconception. Luxury boxes bring in higher revenue per seat, but they also cost a lot more per seat to build. If we had 30 luxury boxes at our stadium leasing for for $35,000 per season, that would bring in revenue of $1,050,000. That would only be the equivalent of 2,593 fans paying $45 a seat for the season. Most luxury boxes seat on average 18 people so, at $35,000 per season that comes out to $216 per person per game. That is a pretty steep price for a CFL game, so it is not a given that we will even sell out 30 luxury boxes in a market like Halifax.

[q12]

Stadium not a hot topic in election

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1240229.html

By CHRIS COCHRANE Sports Columnist
Tue, Apr 26 - 7:48 AM

We’re deep into the federal election campaign and there’s been scant attention paid to what had previously been a hot local topic — the pros and cons of building a new multimillion-dollar stadium in Halifax.

Why has the stadium issue drawn so little attention from the politicians?

Why hasn’t it been thrust into the daily debate in the Halifax riding by those, behind the scenes, who are pushing for or against the project?

The obvious answer is that there’s really nothing left to debate, at least not until the project enters the next phase.

At this point, there are more questions than answers about a stadium.

How much will it cost? How much will the associated infrastructure cost? Will private funding partners come forward?

Will a stadium eventually qualify for financial help under the guidelines of federal infrastructure projects, or will it be tossed on the scrap heap along with other sport stadium projects deemed too professional?

It’s difficult to have meaningful debate when there are this many unanswered questions.

Sure, there’s a deadline for making a stadium decision if Halifax hopes to be one of the hosts for the 2015 FIFA Women’s World Cup. But the more pressing issue is compiling the proper information to see if this is a project worth chasing. And that study process is still going on.

Basically, until the consultant’s report is completed and the city-appointed volunteer steering committee has all the information in hand to study and make a recommendation on the stadium, this project remains only a concept.

Maybe that’s why the stadium issue is treated as less than something tangible in this campaign.

That’s unfortunate. Genuine election debate on the project could have been revealing and informative.

[someone123]

From a federal perspective the stadium is a very small project. Halifax is also unimportant in the election.