NEW YORK | 175 Park Avenue (Grand Hyatt) | 1,581 FT | 92 FLOORS

[ChiND]

Following SOM’s Instagram post yesterday, RXR posted this tower on Instagram today.

[streetscaper]

Don't link it, or tell us what it said, or anything!

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Don't link it, or tell us what it said, or anything!

It didn’t say anything. It was just pictures, which I tried to link.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by ChiND

It didn’t say anything. It was just pictures, which I tried to link.

Ahh got it!.. Thanks!

[NYguy]

Cover boy



https://rxr.com/sustainability/

[ChiND]

Let’s keep our fingers crossed that this is not pie in the sky.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Let’s keep our fingers crossed that this is not pie in the sky.

Why would it be? Is every other proposal without a tenant pie in the sky?

[streetscaper]

I would say, yes, many are (and you just never really know which ones are)!

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by jackb

Yes.

I partially agree, the one I'm kind of hopeful about is 350 Park (since it has a tenant, obviously).

The one exception is WTC2, which is basically required to be built in some form at some point.

I disagree unfortunately. I feel if that were really the case it would have been built already.

[DCReid]

Looking at the threads for NYC buildings under construction now, you'll see it takes at least 5-10 years and sometimes longer from the initial plan to the build out. The initial thread was late 2019, so it's been 6 years. 270 Park Ave, JPMC, started in early 2018, and even with the rendering unveiled in early 2022, it's just now getting done. 740 Eighth Ave, the Time Square building, started way back in 2008 and 520 5th Ave, the residential masterpiece, in 2011. I think a bigger concern is a change in the plan, as happened with some of the other proposals without a lead tenant from the near beginning. Some proposals have come out better, such as the residential masterpiece of 520 5th Avenue. This proposal is already a masterpiece, so it is concerning as time passes with no firm commitment.

[montydawg]

Previous projects had the advantage of low interest rates, which can dramatically increase the economics of a project.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I would say, yes, many are (and you just never really know which ones are)!

Originally Posted by jackb

Yes.

The one exception is WTC2, which is basically required to be built in some form at some point.

Originally Posted by DCReid

Looking at the threads for NYC buildings under construction now, you'll see it takes at least 5-10 years and sometimes longer from the initial plan to the build out. The initial thread was late 2019, so it's been 6 years. 270 Park Ave, JPMC, started in early 2018, and even with the rendering unveiled in early 2022, it's just now getting done. 740 Eighth Ave, the Time Square building, started way back in 2008 and 520 5th Ave, the residential masterpiece, in 2011. I think a bigger concern is a change in the plan, as happened with some of the other proposals without a lead tenant from the near beginning. Some proposals have come out better, such as the residential masterpiece of 520 5th Avenue. This proposal is already a masterpiece, so it is concerning as time passes with no firm commitment.

Originally Posted by montydawg

Previous projects had the advantage of low interest rates, which can dramatically increase the economics of a project.

Many of you have been on this forum long enough to have seen proposals - particularlu NY proposals get built. You know that it doesn’t happen overnight. You’ve seen projects stalled, even after construction began, only to be completed later. You’ve seen a massive development on the west side stalled for years, only to see an entire city’s worth of skyscrapers get built - with more on the way btw. That includes towers larger than the one planned here.

Now, I can forgive not being attuned to the NY office market, and how the lack of anything being built now leads to an explosion of construction. I can even overlook understanding how dire that situation is in the city’s top business district.

But how in the f*ck you can come the the conclusion that a 2msf office tower, built on top of a massive transit terminal, with a hotel component already in place by the way, is somehow visionary or pie in the sky? It makes no sense. If that were the case, then no proposal makes sense.

Listen, skyscrapers get built in their own time, not at the whim of the skyscraper nerds. That’s just a fact. And they’re almost hardly ever - at leadt in NY - built on the developer’s timeframe. Some of you have been around long enough to know that, and should know that.

And just so we’re all clear, this won’t be the last massive tower to get built in the city. There will always be more. All any of you have to do is sit there, and wait.

[ChiND]

If they get a deep pocketed investor that can front development costs without resorting to loans, it would be ideal. They could build on spec. I’d like to see RXR partner with His Royal Highness MBS.

Blackstone is also a possible partner. They could buy a 1m sg condo and self-finance 40 to 50% of the tower.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Many of you have been on this forum long enough to have seen proposals - particularlu NY proposals get built. You know that it doesn’t happen overnight. You’ve seen projects stalled, even after construction began, only to be completed later. You’ve seen a massive development on the west side stalled for years, only to see an entire city’s worth of skyscrapers get built - with more on the way btw. That includes towers larger than the one planned here.

Now, I can forgive not being attuned to the NY office market, and how the lack of anything being built now leads to an explosion of construction. I can even overlook understanding how dire that situation is in the city’s top business district.

But how in the f*ck you can come the the conclusion that a 2msf office tower, built on top of a massive transit terminal, with a hotel component already in place by the way, is somehow visionary or pie in the sky? It makes no sense. If that were the case, then no proposal makes sense.

Listen, skyscrapers get built in their own time, not at the whim of the skyscraper nerds. That’s just a fact. And they’re almost hardly ever - at leadt in NY - built on the developer’s timeframe. Some of you have been around long enough to know that, and should know that.

And just so we’re all clear, this won’t be the last massive tower to get built in the city. There will always be more. All any of you have to do is sit there, and wait.

I've said this before, but I guess I'll repeat myself. I don't think anyone (or at least not most here) is saying nothing will be built here. We just have a mild concern that this won't be built as currently proposed here, meaning with just about the current height and more or less the current design. One Vanderbilt, with basically all the advantages you mention of 175 Park Ave, still managed to be downgraded in height (not too much but still) and the top's design (it looked more soaring and more impressive before imo). And that was in an economic climate that was more permissive to development than our current one. We're not crazy for holding our breaths until this very expensive- and lavish-looking development is well along the way in its current (or potentially better) state.

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by jackb

My view after 13 years on this forum is: Until I see a tenant, a proposal is nothing more than architecture porn. And until its complete, no project is safe from getting cut down to size.

Having a tenant is still no guarantee but at least it's a step in the right direction.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I've said this before, but I guess I'll repeat myself. I don't think anyone (or at least not most here) is saying nothing will be built here. We just have a mild concern that this won't be built as currently proposed here, meaning with just about the current height and more or less the current design.

And not a single one of you has explained a valid reason why other than it's not moving on your terms. There's nothing special about this office tower other than the height. You can repeat it as much as you like, but it's nonsense.

Originally Posted by jackb

But we have been on this forum long enough to see lots of totally serious proposals not get built (even projects that had already started construction! *ahem Chicago Spire, 2WTC*).


My view after 13 years on this forum is: Until I see a tenant, a proposal is nothing more than architecture porn. And until its complete, no project is safe from getting cut down to size.

Well you see, that's why there is a PROPOSAL section and a CONSTRUCTION section. NOTHING is guaranteed to be built until it IS.

But again, you people still seem to think that things move on YOUR time, and that's just ridiculous. 15 Penn Plaza was approved 15 years ago. How's it going? 3 Hudson Yards was around so long people have already forgotten it once went by the name of Girasole. 2 WTC has seen multiple designs. We're still sitting at street level. But at least 4 WTC now has a plan to get built. BTW, how's that one rising? Even smaller projects like 415 Madison haven't managed to get out of the ground. 343 Madison has been around forever. They finally got it approved, and they say they will build on spec. They say. But somehow THIS is the tower that won't get built. Sure. Tell me more. I can never understand the rationale some of you have that everything that CAN and WILL be built in New York City must ALL be built at the same time, and TODAY. That's not how it works. And that's not how it has ever worked. And it's not going to start working like that now. If you don't have the patience or fortitude to wait out developments, then perhaps this isn't for you. But it gets very annoying looking at what amounts to the kid in the back seat saying "are we there yet?" No. We're not there. And we'll get there when we will.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by NYguy

And not a single one of you has explained a valid reason why other than it's not moving on your terms. There's nothing special about this office tower other than the height. You can repeat it as much as you like, but it's nonsense.

lol past experience with other developments alone is enough valid reason to not be 1000000% confident in this proposal. Jesus

I'm not lamenting the timeline, I'm concerned about potential design changes (value engineering)

Past experience should also teach me that you won't understand my position yet again though and that there's no use in arguing this point ad nauseam lol

Well you see, that's why there is a PROPOSAL section and a CONSTRUCTION section. NOTHING is guaranteed to be built until it IS.

But again, you people still seem to think that things move on YOUR time, and that's just ridiculous. 15 Penn Plaza was approved 15 years ago. How's it going? 3 Hudson Yards was around so long people have already forgotten it once went by the name of Girasole. 2 WTC has seen multiple designs. We're still sitting at street level. But at least 4 WTC now has a plan to get built. BTW, how's that one rising? Even smaller projects like 415 Madison haven't managed to get out of the ground. 343 Madison has been around forever. They finally got it approved, and they say they will build on spec. They say. But somehow THIS is the tower that won't get built. Sure. Tell me more. I can never understand the rationale some of you have that everything that CAN and WILL be built in New York City must ALL be built at the same time, and TODAY. That's not how it works. And that's not how it has ever worked. And it's not going to start working like that now. If you don't have the patience or fortitude to wait out developments, then perhaps this isn't for you. But it gets very annoying looking at what amounts to the kid in the back seat saying "are we there yet?" No. We're not there. And we'll get there when we will.

I, for one, don't care about the timeline. I'm super confident something massive will be built here.....eventually. Whether it's tomorrow or 5 years from now, something's going up here. I'm much more concerned about the height and design being more or less maintained. That, I (and many of us) have much less confidence in. How many times has 15 Penn changed its design lol?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I absolutely despise the bandwagony way these clickbait Youtube videos are named. The only way that title could have been worse is if "Actually" was at the end of it.

“said tower”

[ChiND]

This tower is tailor-made for Blackstone. The Hudson Yards West is the only other option for a gigantic tower that can house them. (I cannot see them moving to the vile Hotel Penn site.)

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

lol past experience with other developments alone is enough valid reason to not be 1000000% confident in this proposal. Jesus

I'm not lamenting the timeline, I'm concerned about potential design changes (value engineering)

Past experience should also teach me that you won't understand my position yet again though and that there's no use in arguing this point ad nauseam lol

Nothing about this tower suggests there will be any design changes. NOTHING. There have already been tweaks, but that happens with every tower. Your “fear” of a design alteration is just that. Nothing that anyone shouldvtake seriously.

As for me, you ask me when this tower will start? I have no fucking clue, but it will likely be when there is FINANCING. Imagine that. However, some of you ate only offering opinions out of your ass, and expect it to be taken seriously. That contributes nothing. What it does tell mecis that maybe this thread needs a rest until there actually IS something constructive to add.