Downtowns are back

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

The Washington MSA has competing Downtowns. If you ask people what Downtown is, you'd get either Tysons, Rosslyn, or Downtown D.C. I'll admit when I thought of Downtown DC, my mind immediately pictured Rosslyn, since that's what I traditionally associate with Downtown (highrise corporate HQs).

That said, most of D.C.'s growth is Downtown-proximate, but just outside it:

Atlas District
1990: 3,666
2000: 3,209
2010: 3,867
2020: 6,594

Navy Yard
1990: 2,087
2000: 1,825
2010: 2,794
2020: 11,036

Noma
1990: 157
2000: 89
2010: 66
2020: 5,198

Potomac Yard (Southern National Landing)
1990: 0
2000: 244
2010: 900
2020: 3,710

Rosslyn
1990: 6,499
2000: 7,142
2010: 8,491
2020: 10,647

Tysons (only a portion is built out)
1990: 11,241
2000: 15,846
2010: 19,627
2020: 26,374
Fairfax County Goal: 100,000

I lived in Reston. Nobody considers or called Tysons or Rosslyn downtown. Hell, people in Fairfax think anything in DC is "downtown" because Fairfax county is so suburban.

Rosslyn is tiny btw. Why would anyone consider that downtown? Is it a "downtown"? Sure, but nobody calls it that. Most citiies have these districts.

[Manitopiaaa]

Originally Posted by LA21st

I lived in Reston. Nobody considers or called Tysons or Rosslyn downtown. Hell, people in Fairfax think anything in DC is "downtown" because Fairfax county is so suburban.

Rosslyn is tiny btw. Why would anyone consider that downtown? Tysons as Fairfax County's downtown? Sure. But I don't know anyone who refers to it like that. It's still unwalkable, office park hell.

Because it's the tallest neighborhood in a metro area best known for being an amorphous blob of non-descript low-rise buildings?





I doubt most Washingtonians could even name where Downtown is. Officially, it's the section between the White House and Capitol, but most people would just call that Chinatown/Penn Quarter/Federal Triangle. Some might even say Farragut Square, which is actually in Golden Triangle. I can't recall anyone ever even saying to me "let's go Downtown."



And there's really nothing to draw anyone to the area, unless your idea of a good time is getting screamed at by mentally ill Green Line homeless in Chinatown. Which is precisely why so much corporate growth is in Alexandria/Arlington/Tysons.

I do agree that Tysons is a hellscape and extremely hodgepodge as a business district, but it's also the fastest growing skyline in the metro area, with 4 metro stations now, and the tallest building in the metro area. It's essentially a Houston Uptown or Atlanta Midtown scenario.

[LA21st]

Yes, Rosslyn is a office district/skyline. But nobody refers to them as downtown, as is the same for any city. Century City in LA is never called downtown because it has highrises.

For DC, downtown will always be downtown DC for most DMV residents. I've never heard of this confusion you've speak of for the metro area.

I 'm born and raised in NOVA. There are multiple "downtowns" in the DC area, but that's true for many cities at this point.

[Manitopiaaa]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Yes, Rosslyn is a office district/skyline. But nobody refers to them as downtown, as is the same for any city. Century City in LA is never called downtown because it has highrises.

For DC, downtown will always be downtown DC for most DMV residents. I've never heard of this confusion you've speak of for the metro area.

I 'm born and raised in NOVA. There are multiple "downtowns" in the DC area, but that's true for many cities at this point.

Well that gets back to whether the "Downtown" being studied is simply the neighborhood called 'Downtown' or whether "Downtown" is just an American term of art to refer to the principal CBD.

Downtown NYC is Lower Manhattan (they coined the term), but the CBD is undoubtedly Midtown. I think the confusion here is that when I think of Downtown DC, it's not the CBD. It shares that function with other clusters.

Also, on the point of nobody knowing what Downtown DC is, apparently here's the actual official boundary of Downtown (different from the Downtown BID). Imagine telling someone in Union Market or Foggy Bottom that they live in "Downtown."

[LA21st]

I was talking DC vs it's burbs. It's clear downtown DC functions like the regions' downtown by a considerable margin over Tysons.
You're right. For the city of DC, most people are confused what is included as downtown. I agree. But I think Foggy Bottom is downtown, just a residential part of it?

As for Manhattan, sure. But Manhattan is a different beast. Most of it is "downtown" south of central park.

[iheartthed]

"Downtown" in NYC is extremely nuanced. In Manhattan and the Bronx it's used in place of "south" as a cardinal direction. Most people probably refer to the "downtown" region of Manhattan as "lower Manhattan" to avoid misinterpretation. Some people may even consider up to 14th Street as "downtown" but this isn't the same as lower Manhattan, which is mostly south of Chambers Street. To complicate it even more, when you say "downtown" in Brooklyn it almost always refers to downtown Brooklyn.

But in the context of this discussion, "downtown" means Midtown Manhattan.

[llamaorama]

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

I do agree that Tysons is a hellscape and extremely hodgepodge as a business district, but it's also the fastest growing skyline in the metro area, with 4 metro stations now, and the tallest building in the metro area. It's essentially a Houston Uptown or Atlanta Midtown scenario.

It's almost a perfect twin of Atlanta's Buckhead if you think about it.

Both are anchored by two big fancy malls across the street from each other, connected to the city by a 1970s era heavy rail system, and surrounded by tree-covered spaghetti sprawl.

[Manitopiaaa]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

"Downtown" in NYC is extremely nuanced. In Manhattan and the Bronx it's used in place of "south" as a cardinal direction. Most people probably refer to the "downtown" region of Manhattan as "lower Manhattan" to avoid misinterpretation. Some people may even consider up to 14th Street as "downtown" but this isn't the same as lower Manhattan, which is mostly south of Chambers Street. To complicate it even more, when you say "downtown" in Brooklyn it almost always refers to downtown Brooklyn.

But in the context of this discussion, "downtown" means Midtown Manhattan.

That was my thinking (that 'downtown' is being used as a term of art to mean the CBD), but then Yuri posted Lower Manhattan figures for New York, not Midtown. So I'll admit I'm not sure what 'downtown' definition we're supposed to use

Originally Posted by llamaorama

It's almost a perfect twin of Atlanta's Buckhead if you think about it.

Both are anchored by two big fancy malls across the street from each other, connected to the city by a 1970s era heavy rail system, and surrounded by tree-covered spaghetti sprawl.

Yeah, never thought of it that way. That's a much better parallel. And they have similar histories, with the age of the car and suburban flight (Buckhead is even voting on becoming an independent city this November).

I don't think people realize how much office space has been pushed to the suburbs. Fairfax County, VA, actually has more office space than Washington, D.C. now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the whole, DC's downtown debate, I was reading through commercial real estate website and was surprised a lot of them don't even reference a Downtown.



CBRE calls it "East End" It has 45 million square feet of office space, so is the largest in the region, but not by much (Tysons is now at 30 million square feet of office space, and 16 million of that came in the past decade: https://wtop.com/business-finance/20...led-by-tysons/). And if we use the Downtown Business Improvement District boundaries, then Tysons actually already has more square footage, even if it's still very disjointed.

Curiously, they also categorize the Golden Triangle and parts of Foggy Bottom as the CBD, further muddying the lines between CBD vs. Downtown.

[LA21st]

I think you're taking the CBD thing too seriously. Tysons could have more office space than the CBD of DC in 15 years, it won't matter. It's always gonna be a suburban office district/node. Downtown DC area (whatever you want to call it) is still much larger than Tysons ever will be.

West LA has more office space than downtown LA, but it's not downtown to anyone. A larger employment area? Sure. But it's not the center of anything.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Not much to say about Downtown Buffalo. Even though it's posting a decent growth, it still has a very small population and low density. Lots of room for improvement.

I guess the most remarkable news comes from the city and the MSA, growing for the first time since 1940-1950 and 1960-1970, respectively.

While the population growth may be small in Buffalo's central business district, the amount of development in Greater Downtown area which includes the medical campus and Larkinville has been in the multiple Billions worth, a figure that the tiny CBD pop growth doesn't show.

Major Development completed since 2010 Census

•$375M UB medical school
•$290M Gates Vascular Institute
•$272M Oishei Buffalo Children's Hospital
•$172M LECOM Harborcenter mixed use project including full-service Marriott hotel, twin pad ice arena, workout/training facility, fine dining restaurant, giant sports bar, parking garage (adjacent to the KeyBank NHL arena)
•$137M Robert H. Jackson US Courthouse
•$130M Seneca Creek Buffalo casino
•$110M Delaware North HQ including Westin Hotel
•$110M Coventus Medical office/R&D building
•Tens of Millions of dollars expansions to Roswell Park Comprehensive Cancer Center
•countless buildings downtown and in Larkinville rehabbed into residential, office space, mixed-use, hotels, new restaurants
•Explore & More children's museum down by the water in Canalside

•Buffalo's tallest tower 529ft/161m and 1.2M square feet (former Marine Midland bank/HSBC tower) now rechristened Seneca One Tower by DC-based developer Douglas Jemal

•$150M makeover
•repainted exterior in terracotta and gun metal
•adding 115+ apartments
•redoing office space
•Buffalo-based M&T Bank alone spending $58M (separate from main rehab cost) inside the structure for a technology hub

I'm sure benp will let me know if I missed anything major

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

That's red mark, including the Mall is precisely what I called Downtown Washington on the list. The shape matches perfectly with the census tracts.

About your question, it's really Downtown what I'm talking here, not CBD, although in most cases they're the same. I've opened the thread with São Paulo whose CBD is no longer in Downtown for the past 30-40 years or so.

[Yuri]

@Wigs, let's bring Rochester:

Downtown Rochester



------------------------------ 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Density

Downtown ---------------------- 5,638 ------ 4,430 ------ 3,974 ------ 3,776 ---- 27.3% ---- 11.5% ---- 5.2% ------- 1.8 km² --- 3,207.1 inh./km²

Rochester -------------------- 211,328 ---- 210,645 ---- 220,167 ---- 230,463 ----- 0.3% ---- -4.3% --- -4.5% ------ 92.6 km² --- 2,281.4 inh./km²

Rochester MSA ------------- 1,090,135 -- 1,079,640 -- 1,062,452 -- 1,025,220 ----- 1.0% ----- 1.6% ---- 3.6% --- 8,459 km²


Downtown following the national trend and growing strongly. As the comparison is inevitable, it's much more populated than Buffalo's.

Rochester (city) growing for the first time since 1940-1950 and regarding the MSA, Rochester has the distinction to be the only major metro area in the Northeast/Great Lakes to have never had experienced negative growth.

[Skintreesnail]

The Rochester growth is nice to see; grew up near there. Surprised of the higher density than Buffalo. Buffalo has some pretty dense neighborhoods right outside it's downtown (Allentown, west village, Elmwood), but obviously needs more mixed use downtown. Hopefully the Canalside district will add some residential.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Rochester has the distinction to be the only major metro area in the Northeast/Great Lakes to have never had experienced negative growth.

Well the Rochester Metro geographic area is over double the size of Metro Buffalo

Glad to see downtown and city of Rochester doing well!

Partially removing/downgrading the sunken inner loop highway was one of the smartest things imho that Rochester has done in the past decade.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/03/...ester-highway/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_Loop_(Rochester)

Rochester downgraded the dark purple part and turned it into an at grade "complete street"
https://www.cnu.org/sites/default/fi...nner_loop.jpeg

[Yuri]

^^
I didn't notice they had part of their freeway loop removed. Very nice to see it, specially it seemed quite tight, strangling their Downtown.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Downtown Birmingham




------------------------------------ 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Density

Downtown ------------------------- 3,488 ------ 3,972 ------ 3,568 ------ 4,153 ----- -12.2% --- 11.3% --- -14.1% ------- 3.8 km² ----- 916.2 inh./km²

Birmingham Metro Area ----- 1,180,631 -- 1,128,047 -- 1,052,238 ---- 956,844 ------ 4.7% ----- 7.2% ---- 10.0% -- 13,675 km²


I have the soft spot for the underdogs, so I really liked to say something good about Downtown Birmingham. However that's the lowest density I found anywhere, population falling badly, a mess.

And the metro area, well, watches its former rivals Atlanta and Nashville to grow insanely while it posts anemic growth.

[TimCity2000]

^ curious as to which areas you used to define as "downtown" birmingham?

there's no way it has lost residents over the last 10 years. downtown is one of the few growing areas of the city.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

That's red mark, including the Mall is precisely what I called Downtown Washington on the list. The shape matches perfectly with the census tracts.

About your question, it's really Downtown what I'm talking here, not CBD, although in most cases they're the same. I've opened the thread with São Paulo whose CBD is no longer in Downtown for the past 30-40 years or so.

note the east end has completely filled in during the past 20 years

(by comparing to the CBRE map above)

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

^ curious as to which areas you used to define as "downtown" birmingham?

there's no way it has lost residents over the last 10 years. downtown is one of the few growing areas of the city.

It's the two census tracts bordered by the freeway loop on three sides and the railway south. It's the area showed in the pic.

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

note the east end has completely filled in during the past 20 years

(by comparing to the CBRE map above)

I'll check each census tract later. I don't remember which ones were pushing Downtown Washington up.

[TimCity2000]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

It's the two census tracts bordered by the freeway loop on three sides and the railway south. It's the area showed in the pic.

personally, i'd include census tract 45.02 as well, which also appears in the pic (upper right).

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

personally, i'd include census tract 45.02 as well, which also appears in the pic (upper right).

Birmingham was hard for me because neither Wikipedia nor Google brought definitions of it. I guess this concept is not much used there.

That census tract you mentioned is growing, but it doesn't do much to increase the overall density.