Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Empire]

Originally Posted by wespidel

SORRY SPELLING TEACHER EMPIRE, YES IT`S THREE M`S, MINIMUM!

I`m glad we have a Empire for a spelling typing error specialist on here. EMMPIRE I will make sure I mistakenly in my fast two finger computer keyboard typing speedy fashion, give you a lot more tying errors so you can do the corrections, to keep you happy, busy and insulting! EMMPIRE!

PS. EMMPIRE I KNOW AS WELL, (THAN) IS USED IN COMPARSION AND (THEN), LIKE NOW AND THEN! DID I PAST TEACHER EMMPIRE!

I'll let you have the last word. You apparently really need it.

[resetcbu1]

$90,000,000 for new "LED" street lights ,I am all for it but if the province has that much coin to throw at replacing street lights it'd be nice if they could maybe pitch half that much towards a stadium.

ps; how many people do you think are up in arms about that deal,calling the street lights just another white elephant payed for by the tax payers of NS?
My guess few or none

[wespidel]

This has been my point, look what their spending on LED lights which I believe are not as bright as what they previously had in place. But in relation to my point regarding the price of a stadium. This is a stadium development we are talking about not LED lights. It`s astonishing to me that we continue to debate back and forth on the affordable expense to build a 30 to 60 million dollar stadium when it`s outrageously cheap in comparsion to most normal stadium costs and even a 100 million dollar stadium is still at the low end of the spectrum. Yet they have no problem spending 90 million dollars on lights and 114 million on a new convention centre which is a lot less popular than a stadium. So I believe there is absolutely no justification for HRM to indicate to the public that they are looking to build a low end 60 million dollar stadium. I totally believe they are snowing the public and cheating the public because I believe they are treating this project with little or no respect mainly because it`s not for them! I been saying all along that if it was any other project other than a stadium, they wouldn`t be building these other projects as cheap and haven`t. Yet they insist in building a cheap looking stadium eyesore that will not be close to what they should build. So yes their LED 90 million dollar investment only confirms what I have been saying and makes them look really bad and shows how little they want to give back to the public. Realisticly a hundred million dollars should be the starting point, remember the CommonWeath Games stadium was 145 million dollar plus project. I believe the public are being shown very little respect and are definitely being snowed and cheated out a major facility. If a stadium project was truely respected by HRM and the province who don`t even want to support it but keep robbing 40% from the public at the pumps, 24 dollars out of 62 dollars worth of gas they put in their pockets daily, then they wouldn`t be pushing a 30 to 60 million dollar cheap mickey mouse stadium down our throats, would they!. This NDP 40 % gas tax grab is highway robbery!

Dexter`s govt. along could build three 100 million dollar stadiums for the extra 250 million plus they made on their HST additional 2% money grab and their outrageous gas tax on tax grab, that they made another 40 million dollars plus on. Why are they embarrassing the public and even talking about a mickey mouse cover- up cheap 30 to 60 million dollar stadium. They must think the public are so stupid! When I think about the property tax we pay in this city and the highest taxes in Canada that the NDP govt. steal from us every day and what they are spending hundreds of millions of our dollars on, yet they refuse to give anything back to the public to build a decent modern major stadium for our capital city and province. It makes we to want to get out of this city and move to Moncton and I`m not alone.

PS. So to be honest this is no excuse whatsoever, not wanting to build at least a 100 million dollar stadium in Halifax versus a mickey-mouse cheap 30 to 60 million dollar low end eyesore undesirable facility.

If this was a new Metro Centre, it would not be a 60 million dollar facility, it would be a 240 million to 300 million dollar project which the city already have indicated! So there is your answer! Halifax and Dexter`s govt. if you can`t at least build a 100 million dollar stadium, get out of town and bring in a new body of people that are going to give back to the public and have some real vision for our city and province. Stop snowing the public because you wouldn`t be spending 90 million on LED lights or 114 million on a new convention centre that is only 25 % in favour of compared to 75% support for a stadium. It`s about time HRM and the NS Govt. gives back the money they have taken from the public. We are the highest over taxed city and province in Canada. It`s our money and we want it back and used to build a major stadium. Stop treating the stadium project like a barn and cheating the public! Many, hundreds of thousands of over taxed Nova Scotians feel the same and totally agree and the polls in the next elections will show their displeasures!

[FuzzyWuz]

Should we/you/anybody be getting so bent out of shape so soon? I agree that we should be ready to defend all the points we thing they might raise, but the decision to spend and how much to spend has not been made yet. This group is brimming with energy, focus, talent, etc. I think people like Fenwick, Wespidel et al. are having an influence and I have high hopes that we will see good results from their efforts.

my 2 cents.

[hoser111]

Originally Posted by resetcbu1

$90,000,000 for new "LED" street lights ,I am all for it but if the province has that much coin to throw at replacing street lights it'd be nice if they could maybe pitch half that much towards a stadium.

ps; how many people do you think are up in arms about that deal,calling the street lights just another white elephant payed for by the tax payers of NS?
My guess few or none

I propose they install several thousand LED light fixtures in Shannon Park and build some stands with seating n' stuff to hold 'em up!

[fenwick16]

I think it might be best to start thinking in terms of what Halifax/Nova Scotia can afford in a stadium since Prime Minister Harper has stated that the federal government won't fund stadiums and arenas - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/ho...not-to-fund-quebec-arena/article1944214/

Harper noted that Quebecers are the most-taxed people in North America and he said they want their federal dollars spent wisely.

“We will not spend taxpayers' money on a professional sports arena or stadium in Quebec City. And we will not participate in such projects in Regina, Halifax, Edmonton, or my hometown, Calgary,” he said.

“You either fund them all — or you don't fund any. We aren't financing the one here, and the same treatment will be applied equally across the country. . .

“There will be no double-standard.”

The prime minister's toughened tone comes just days after his government made it clear that — despite months of anticipation — it would not get involved in the local arena project.

[someone123]

I personally don't have a problem with the federal government opting out of bankrolling pro sports, as long as they do so consistently.

Public money should be focused on projects open to everybody, like the library.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

I personally don't have a problem with the federal government opting out of bankrolling pro sports, as long as they do so consistently.

Public money should be focused on projects open to everybody, like the library.

True, except it IS a grey area no matter what the apparent consistency.

Take stadia such as Moncton's.
One could argue that they got government money for the event as a whole rather than for the stadium in particular, and that it was for an amateur sporting event rather than professional.
However, setting aside that the delineation between amateur and professional is tenuous at best, and setting aside that the event was not open to everybody, if Moncton goes on to have a CFL team there in the future then the feds will have funded a stadium used for professional sports.

[MonctonRad]

Agree.

If the new Halifax Stadium was marketed as a venue for university sports (football, soccer) and as a host site for the FIFA Women's World Cup, then I think it would still qualify for federal funding.

Just make sure that your funding request makes no mention of the CFL.

[someone123]

My post was more about what governments ought to theoretically fund. I'm aware that in practice this is all very political; unless a city or region wants to be shut out it has to go for as much as it can and present proposals very carefully.

That practicality is one of the main reasons why I do somewhat support projects like a new stadium or convention centre. I don't think that they would be optimal projects in an ideal world but they are good given the way that federal government funding works -- without the shiny, inefficient projects the city gets less money but HRM residents send the same taxes to Ottawa. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.

Still, it would be nice to see things improve someday...

[fenwick16]

This story interested me:

(source: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/l_ian_macdonald/2011/03/17/17661641.html )

Rink rumble now favours Stephen Harper

By L. Ian MaDonald

Having been down the slippery slope of whether the feds should help fund the new hockey arena in Quebec City, Stephen Harper could have given Michael Ignatieff some good advice — don’t go there.

The Conservatives looked at this from every angle, and couldn’t find a way of finessing it in the Quebec City region without paying a huge price in the rest of the country.
.
.
.
It’s hard to know what Ignatieff will get out of it in Quebec City, since the Liberals are not competitive in 418, a two-way battleground between the Bloc and the Conservatives. In the rest of the country, the Tories will push back hard.

Harper already did on Wednesday when he showed up in Quebec City to announce up to $50 million in upgrades for the airport.

“We will spend not taxpayers money on a professional sports arena here in Quebec City,” he said. Nor, he added, “in Regina, Halifax, Edmonton, or my own city of Calgary. You either fund them all or you don’t fund any.”

Harper just took Iggy into the boards.

I think that Michael Ignatieff made a serious blunder in stating that the Liberals would fund the arena in Quebec City, and his reasoning was ridiculous, in my opinion - essentially that it was not an arena but a multicultural centre.

On the other hand, the Conservatives stated that they would not fund stadiums and arenas (because of the public backlash against funding them). However, the Conservatives just promised funding for the Quebec City Airport, and previously stated that gas tax money given back to the municipalities could be used for stadium and arenas. Intuitively, the gas tax money seems to be of no use since it would have to be re-allocated from roads and other infrastructure. Did the Conservatives just find a way to fund stadiums and arenas? - if they help with transportation infrastructure projects that might have previously been funded with municipality gas tax refunds, then won't that free up money for municipalities to put towards stadiums and arenas?

Is this all political wrangling? - things aren't always the way that they seem to be (some might say that they seldom are).

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

....Did the Conservatives just find a way to fund stadiums and arenas? - if they help with transportation infrastructure projects that might have previously been funded with municipality gas tax refunds, then won't that free up money for municipalities to put towards stadiums and arenas?.

The simple answer here is 'no'. No money was 'freed up', most municipalities are facing a serious shortfall on upgrading and replacing existing infrastructure, let alone adding to it. In most cases any new funding will just be used to deal with the infrastructure deficit. This is why the municipalities were asking for a cut of the gas tax in the first place.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The only temporary seats are in the endzones.
I don't know about the elevator, sorry.

I've crawled over and through the structure quite a bit installing the WIFI gear there... there IS an elevator, but it's of the smallish variety and is used primarily as a handicapped lift. I went up and down the stairs a LOT.

[fenwick16]

There is a story in the Chronicle herald today - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/9020221.html#comment-32151 . I am concerned that the recent concert deal will have a negative affect on the outcome.

Kelly says stadium coming to Halifax, just a matter of when

By JOHN LEWANDOWSKI The Canadian Press
Sat, Mar 19 - 7:32 AM

Halifax is about to engage in a debate over building a new stadium that several Canadian cities are wrestling with, some finding a resolution to questions about their needs for stadiums while others are still undecided in a time of fiscal restraint.
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.
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[spaustin]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

There is a story in the Chronicle herald today - http://thechronicleherald.ca/Metro/9020221.html#comment-32151 . I am concerned that the recent concert deal will have a negative affect on the outcome.

You're right to worry. Today's Kelly comments are just quacking from a lame duck. No doubt an attempt to change the channel away from the concert mess.

[wespidel]

Media in Halifax and ignorant cruel mean people stop running Mayor Kelly down. How would you like it if all you ignorant attackers, TV and radio media jobs, were jeopardized by people trying to attack your credibility and livelyhood. I`m totally fed up with the media and these ignorant rude, cruel people in this city. The people of HRM and the media were constantly running HFX. down for not being in the concert business in relation to Moncton`s success and were pushing hard for HFX. to act and compete to get concerts. CAO Anstey, Scot Fergerson and the concert promoter Harold Mackay received the money that Anstey solely controlled. Anstey had the power over the Mayor to make the decision and convinced the Mayor that everything was legal and that he could trust him and his partners. Mayor Kelly was not given the 400,000 dollars, they were! Mayor Kelly`s name was not on these concert contracts. He only signed off trusting Anstey, who is a lawyer and who could only make the final decision, not the Mayor who is not a lawyer. Mayor Kelly didn`t have the authority to make the decsion to give the money, only Anstey had the power to transfer the money, not Mayor Kelly! So the Coast. the Herald and Metro newspapers, certain city councillors, CBC, CTV, Global, CBC radio, 95.7 talk radio, all of you are a disgrace and are two faced. Mayor Kelly has been on all of your stations many, many times over the years and always gave the media his time which helped your listening audience and this is what you do to him. How would you like to be ganged up on as employees and your stations to a degree that you could lose your jobs and your staions could go down, well that`s what you are doing to Mayor Kelly and it`s disgraceful of all of you involved!

The Deputy Mayor Smith, councillor Fisher, councillor Sloane, councillor McCluskey are not included in the above list, they are good people and are good councillors and very respectful towards Mayor Kelly which I respect a lot and they stand behind their Mayor which they should!

Mayor Kelly is a decent, good down to earth person who is trustworthy, and treats everybody with total respect, Mayor Kelly cares about our city and the people of HRM and works extremely hard as Mayor and has done a creditable job and I and a lot of good people I know respect him and believe the same as me that they are mistreating him and attacking his integrity which has no justification nor is fair.


Now to the stadium article in the Herald, Mayor Kelly is definitely on the right track and knows exactly what Halifax needs and knows the model stadium Halifax needs to build and he`s absolutely 100% right. The stadium in Halifax needs to be a two tier twined 25,000 plus permanent seat stadium with all the latest amenities and with a partial roof and with open endzones. I truely believe this is the type of stadium that Mayor Kelly is referring to. Mayor Kelly is going to deliver a major stadium for Halifax! Mayor Kelly is the man that can make it happen along with councillors like Mr. Fisher and the others I mentioned who have vision and as a team, will make it happen. All this other garbage has to stop! Mayor Kelly is a smart man and he knows that if Halifax doesn`t build a major stadium that they will have no chance to receive the bid from FIFA to host the Womens World Cup but he also knows if he builds a major stadium it will be hard for FIFA to say no!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Media in Halifax and ignorant cruel mean people stop running Mayor Kelly down. How would you like it if all you ignorant attackers, TV and radio media jobs, were jeopardized by people trying to attack your credibility and livelyhood. I`m totally fed up with the media and these ignorant rude, cruel people in this city. The people of HRM and the media were constantly running HFX. down for not being in the concert business in relation to Moncton`s success and were pushing hard for HFX. to act and compete to get concerts. CAO Anstey, Scot Fergerson and the concert promoter Harold Mackay received the money that Anstey solely controlled. Anstey had the power over the Mayor to make the decision and convinced the Mayor that everything was legal and that he could trust him and his partners. Mayor Kelly was not given the 400,000 dollars, they were! Mayor Kelly`s name was not on these concert contracts. He only signed off trusting Anstey, who is a lawyer and who could only make the final decision, not the Mayor who is not a lawyer. Mayor Kelly didn`t have the authority to make the decsion to give the money, only Anstey had the power to transfer the money, not Mayor Kelly! So the Coast. the Herald and Metro newspapers, certain city councillors, CBC, CTV, Global, CBC radio, 95.7 talk radio, all of you are a disgrace and are two faced. Mayor Kelly has been on all of your stations many, many times over the years and always gave the media his time which helped your listening audience and this is what you do to him. How would you like to be ganged up on as employees and your stations to a degree that you could lose your jobs and your staions could go down, well that`s what you are doing to Mayor Kelly and it`s disgraceful of all of you involved!

The Deputy Mayor Smith, councillor Fisher, councillor Sloane, councillor McCluskey are not included in the above list, they are good people and are good councillors and very respectful towards Mayor Kelly which I respect a lot and they stand behind their Mayor which they should!

Mayor Kelly is a decent, good down to earth person who is trustworthy, and treats everybody with total respect, Mayor Kelly cares about our city and the people of HRM and works extremely hard as Mayor and has done a creditable job and I and a lot of good people I know respect him and believe the same as me that they are mistreating him and attacking his integrity which has no justification nor is fair.


Now to the stadium article in the Herald, Mayor Kelly is definitely on the right track and knows exactly what Halifax needs and knows the model stadium Halifax needs to build and he`s absolutely 100% right. The stadium in Halifax needs to be a two tier twined 25,000 plus permanent seat stadium with all the latest amenities and with a partial roof and with open endzones. I truely believe this is the type of stadium that Mayor Kelly is referring to. Mayor Kelly is going to deliver a major stadium for Halifax! Mayor Kelly is the man that can make it happen along with councillors like Mr. Fisher and the others I mentioned who have vision and as a team, will make it happen. All this other garbage has to stop! Mayor Kelly is a smart man and he knows that if Halifax doesn`t build a major stadium that they will have no chance to receive the bid from FIFA to host the Womens World Cup but he also knows if he builds a major stadium it will be hard for FIFA to say no!

I would like to believe this wespidel, and it might really be the case. I don't really think that any of the people involved in this were doing it for personal gain. They were doing it for the benefit of the municipality - to hold major concerts in the Halifax area. It is too bad that by not following proper procedures, so much negative press has ensued. Also, there is the risk of wrong-doing when so much money is involved, so in this case the proper procedures should have been followed. It is difficult to judge who deserves the most blame (I am sure that there are people who would support Mr. Anstey also).

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Media in Halifax and ignorant cruel mean people stop running Mayor Kelly down. How would you like it if all you ignorant attackers, TV and radio media jobs, were jeopardized by people trying to attack your credibility and livelyhood. I`m totally fed up with the media and these ignorant rude, cruel people in this city. The people of HRM and the media were constantly running HFX. down for not being in the concert business in relation to Moncton`s success and were pushing hard for HFX. to act and compete to get concerts. CAO Anstey, Scot Fergerson and the concert promoter Harold Mackay received the money that Anstey solely controlled. Anstey had the power over the Mayor to make the decision and convinced the Mayor that everything was legal and that he could trust him and his partners. Mayor Kelly was not given the 400,000 dollars, they were! Mayor Kelly`s name was not on these concert contracts. He only signed off trusting Anstey, who is a lawyer and who could only make the final decision, not the Mayor who is not a lawyer. Mayor Kelly didn`t have the authority to make the decsion to give the money, only Anstey had the power to transfer the money, not Mayor Kelly! So the Coast. the Herald and Metro newspapers, certain city councillors, CBC, CTV, Global, CBC radio, 95.7 talk radio, all of you are a disgrace and are two faced. Mayor Kelly has been on all of your stations many, many times over the years and always gave the media his time which helped your listening audience and this is what you do to him. How would you like to be ganged up on as employees and your stations to a degree that you could lose your jobs and your staions could go down, well that`s what you are doing to Mayor Kelly and it`s disgraceful of all of you involved!

The Deputy Mayor Smith, councillor Fisher, councillor Sloane, councillor McCluskey are not included in the above list, they are good people and are good councillors and very respectful towards Mayor Kelly which I respect a lot and they stand behind their Mayor which they should!

Mayor Kelly is a decent, good down to earth person who is trustworthy, and treats everybody with total respect, Mayor Kelly cares about our city and the people of HRM and works extremely hard as Mayor and has done a creditable job and I and a lot of good people I know respect him and believe the same as me that they are mistreating him and attacking his integrity which has no justification nor is fair.

<deep breath>

It is absolutely shocking to think that there are undoubtedly many people like yourself in this town who are so stunningly ignorant of the facts regarding what has been revealed in recent days. People like this explain why we have been saddled with an embarrassment of a mayor for the last 11 years.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have been away or perhaps in a coma for the last 5 days and thus are not fully aware of what has transpired. Here is what we know:

1. Three days before the concert last July the mayor met with the concert promoter and agreed to provide him with $400,000 in bridge financing via TCL, the Board of which he is a member. The interim CAO, 2 weeks in the chair, would not and could not do this without the mayor's approval.

2. This violates the HRM Charter as the mayor has no such power.

3. TCL asked the CAO on whose authority they should advance the funds. The answer received: the mayor's.

4. For the next 7 months the mayor told no one about the loan.

5. When the facts come to light this week the mayor initially denies all knowledge. He then blames the CAO, who is forced out in an ignominious and humiliating end to an otherwise fine 33-year career. Not satisfied with that, the mayor then tries to lay blame at the feet of the HRM legal department. Lawyers being lawyers, and the mayor being the mayor, he quickly backs down and is forced to apologize when they challenge him on his false statement.

6. Anstey leaves and makes it clear that it was the mayor's doing. The mayor dithers, dissembles, refuses to answer direct questions, and gets into arguments when reporters press him for simple answers.

7. HRMs highly respected and very capable CFO resigns unexpectedly late Friday. She praises Anstey and others in her comments to the press. Tellingly, she does not mention the mayor.

8. Inexplicably, the Herald gives him space to run a rambling, disjointed and unconvincing op-ed item in their Saturday edition. He succeeds only in digging a deeper hole for himself.

The mayor's livelihood is based upon leading the city, both elected and staff, respecting the HRM Charter, and being trusted by the citizens. In less than a week he has shown that he is incapable of doing any of these things. He has been dishonest; he has been evasive; he has been deceptive; he has assigned blame to others who were innocent; he has destroyed at least one career and caused the HRM senior executive to be decimated; and he has done irreparable damage to the image of HRM. It could cost us not only a chance at a stadium, but also a CC and who knows what other opportunities that will now pass us by.

The only reason the mayor ever appeared in the media was to advance the career of the mayor. Now that the tables are turned it is not a pretty sight to see him running for a dark corner. He has proven he is not trustworthy, he has shown total disrespect to both council and senior staff, he has demonstrated a complete inability to act in an informed manner that reflects sound judgment; and he has demonstrated he is unworthy to lead not just HRM, but anything else. He has demonstrated a serious character flaw and shown himself to be only out for himself. Such an individual cannot continue to serve as mayor. He must resign, or be removed.

[spaustin]

Can't add anything more to everything you just said Keith! You're absolutely right. The most distressing part about this whole business is not that it happened, it's how Kelly's dealt with it. All he had to do was admit that he was involved, that they were trying to promote Halifax and that procedures weren't followed that should have been and for that he's sorry. Instead he hid the whole mess from council and the public for as long as he could and then tried to pin the blame on everyone else while pleading ignorance. It doesn't wash. I have to wonder, how many staff reports outlining the City's ability to provide grants only to non-profits came across his desk over the last 12 years? I can't imagine the prohibition against funding commercial ventures was some obscure and unknown rule. Maybe a rookie councilor would have been in the dark, but come on, Kelly has spent his whole life in municipal politics. Hopefully he'll be voted out in 2012 since he's clearly not going to do the honourable thing and resign.

[Empire]

I think it will be very hard for Kelly to find anyone who trusts him now. Councilors, the public, politicians and business leaders may find it hard to work with him or enter into any kind of business arrangement with him. There are too many important projects on the books in HRM that require strong leadership for this to go away quietly. Politicians shouldn't be surprised by a rough ride from the media, especially if they are at the centre of a major scandal. This is the fodder for a boost in newspaper sales.

Under Kelly's "leadership" we have lost the Commonwealth Games, a year of operation of the main sewage treatment plant and now the potential to attract a major concert. Hopefully the stadium and convention centre won't be jeopardized because of this but this sure isn't helping.