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  #2701  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 8:12 PM
whatnext whatnext is online now
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Originally Posted by Shift View Post
Actually, South Surrey is going to grow by leaps and bounds over the next few decades, which is what this bridge will serve. This is where a large chunk of the last remaining developable land outside the ALR in the region is, and it is already booming down there with development.
It will grow but to nowhere near the extent that the Hwy 1 corridor will. And let's not forget traffic volumes at the tunnel have been stagnant, fallen slightly actually.
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  #2702  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 8:20 PM
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LOL, keep trying.
Keep trying on what? Care to respond to my comment rather than disregarding it?
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  #2703  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by M00dy View Post
Keep trying on what? Care to respond to my comment rather than disregarding it?
Does it warrant a response? Of course it is technically possible, that doesn't mean it is wise or in this case, even required. This boondoggle seems to be a pet cause of yours, so let's be honest no argument is going to sway you on it.
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  #2704  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Shift View Post
Actually, South Surrey is going to grow by leaps and bounds over the next few decades, which is what this bridge will serve. This is where a large chunk of the last remaining developable land outside the ALR in the region is, and it is already booming down there with development.
And would we want to encourage that growth to be more automobile dependent (which building a bridge would do), or complete communities with transit-oriented development?
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  #2705  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chikinlittle View Post
And would we want to encourage that growth to be more automobile dependent (which building a bridge would do), or complete communities with transit-oriented development?
Transit-oriented development requires, well, transit - and given the low population and long distance, a Canada Line south of the Fraser is a very long-term project (2070 or later).

In the short-term, all we've got are buses... and they're stuck in the tunnel too. So the best way to improve transit for Delta is to increase roadspace.
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  #2706  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Transit-oriented development requires, well, transit - and given the low population and long distance, a Canada Line south of the Fraser is a very long-term project (2070 or later).

In the short-term, all we've got are buses... and they're stuck in the tunnel too. So the best way to improve transit for Delta is to increase roadspace.
This. Rapid transit will likely never ever come to South Delta, nor should it. My primary interest in this bridge is the improvement it would make for transit and cycling in the area.
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  #2707  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Transit-oriented development requires, well, transit - and given the low population and long distance, a Canada Line south of the Fraser is a very long-term project (2070 or later).

In the short-term, all we've got are buses... and they're stuck in the tunnel too. So the best way to improve transit for Delta is to increase roadspace.
And you can't expect EVERYONE to use transit, just because you cram more busses into a route.

Quite a few high paying jobs, like garbage man, trucker, electrician, and the like require drivers.
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  #2708  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:51 PM
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This. Rapid transit will likely never ever come to South Delta, nor should it. My primary interest in this bridge is the improvement it would make for transit and cycling in the area.
Cycling shouldn't even be a consideration, the amount of commuter cyclists will always be minimal on this route. Designing just to accommodate a few hardcore lycra brigaders out for recreational cycling is ridiculous.
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  #2709  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:53 PM
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What really annoys me is all the work that's already been done for relocating the transmission lines along the 99 corridor. There are a couple of masts that have already been erected. Along with piling and foundation for a couple more. They are basically pointless now.
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  #2710  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:55 PM
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Quite a few high paying jobs, like garbage man, trucker, electrician, and the like require drivers.
Or if you live in Vancouver and your on-call job needs you in Pitt Meadows today and Ladner tomorrow, so you need a vehicle (etc, etc, etc)...

Seriously, let's get a SkyTrain, LRT and BRT rapid network throughout the Metro that connects everything to everything else, THEN we can talk about a car-free society.
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  #2711  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by libtard View Post
What really annoys me is all the work that's already been done for relocating the transmission lines along the 99 corridor. There are a couple of masts that have already been erected. Along with piling and foundation for a couple more. They are basically pointless now.
Media says $70M has been spent so far. That's chump change. Site C is spending that every week.
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  #2712  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Does it warrant a response? Of course it is technically possible, that doesn't mean it is wise or in this case, even required. This boondoggle seems to be a pet cause of yours, so let's be honest no argument is going to sway you on it.
And again you didn't say anything about the technical details of bridge piling. I'll just assume you don't know anything about it.

You know what else is affected by liquifiable soils? A tunnel sitting on/in them with no ground improvements to mitigate the liquifaction.
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  #2713  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Cycling shouldn't even be a consideration, the amount of commuter cyclists will always be minimal on this route. Designing just to accommodate a few hardcore lycra brigaders out for recreational cycling is ridiculous.
You could conceivably commute from Ladner to Riverside Industrial Park south of Steveston Highway.

Regardless, forget about cycling. If we want to improve transit to this part of the region, you need the bridge.

Obviously there are many jobs that require a car, but most don't. It is feasible to have many more people taking transit to work than do today. Replacing the tunnel could be a big step towards that too.
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  #2714  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
And you can't expect EVERYONE to use transit, just because you cram more busses into a route.

Quite a few high paying jobs, like garbage man, trucker, electrician, and the like require drivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Or if you live in Vancouver and your on-call job needs you in Pitt Meadows today and Ladner tomorrow, so you need a vehicle (etc, etc, etc)...

Seriously, let's get a SkyTrain, LRT and BRT rapid network throughout the Metro that connects everything to everything else, THEN we can talk about a car-free society.
This old tired straw-man... Just let it rest. Nobody is saying that. Nobody is expecting that. That would be impossible.

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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
That makes for an outrageous read.

Quote:
[...]

Fixed price not fixed

The bridge was to be built under a fixed-price contract. If any extra, unforeseen work was needed, both sides would have to agree to a change order.

Change orders are common on big infrastructure projects. On the Port Mann project there were more than 130 such orders for $300 million in extra work.

New figures obtained by the CBC show the contractor was paid a total of $572 million above the fixed price.

[...]

Oversight contracted out

B.C. builds infrastructure unlike anywhere else in Canada, by contracting out the top oversight job, and not having a public servant represent taxpayers' interests.

In this case, the top job went to a private sector engineer named Gary Webster.

For $390 an hour, the province hired Webster for a position known as the authority's representative, meaning he represented B.C. taxpayers on the project.

TI Corp said he was just an adviser, but the contract said Webster's role was to "make all consequential decisions," approve change orders and sign monthly invoices after confirming the contractor did the work.

Two TI Corp officials would then sign to approve payment.

Five months into the job, Webster was made a partner at KPMG, which was also in charge of the advisory and audit work for TI Corp which earned KPMG more than $17 million as of the end of last year.

The arrangement was controversial. According to retired ethics professor Ian Greene, the person in charge of a project like this should not also work for the consulting firm hired to both manage and audit the bridge's construction.

"I think it is very dangerous to contract out the management of projects like that," said Greene, who taught ethics at York University's political science department for 30 years.

"How can you serve both the taxpayers and look out for their best interests and also KPMG who employs you?"

"How can you appear to be completely impartial about that?"

[...]

Auditor General's findings

But as early as 2009, B.C.'s acting auditor general raised concerns about Webster's invoice approval process after a routine annual audit.

Russ Jones noted the procedures "were not adequately documented."

In a statement KPMG said, "The [Office of the Auditor General] did not direct any particular review process that TI Corp should follow."

TI Corp said it improved its procedures, and insists intense oversight was in place during the project, but following CBC News inquiries, the crown corporation asked B.C.'s auditor general to review its processes in July.

During the summer of 2009, as construction on the bridge ramped up, the amount of money being spent was beginning to raise questions.

Just five months into the project, Webster and TI Corp had authorized $389 million in payments to the contractor as of August 2009, according to documents obtained by CBC.

But that amount didn't match the progress of construction, say two of the consultants who spoke to CBC and reviewed some of the leaked documents.

The contract says payments can only be made for progress of work, to protect taxpayers if a contractor were to go out of business.

The consultants pointed to more than $100 million in items they say were not related to progress of work.

They include employee moves, vehicles, equipment/insurance premiums, a request-for-proposal fee, and a design success fee, all unusual items to be paid on a design-build contract, say the consultants.

[...]

Hundreds of pages of internal TI Corp and KPMG documents, including invoices, change orders, emails, and spreadsheets, were leaked anonymously to CBC.

One key document was a construction update in January 2012 that warned the bridge opening date would be delayed by 18 months, because of complications with the Cape Horn Interchange in Coquitlam.

The province wanted to stay on schedule, and open the bridge as planned in December 2012, say the consultants.

So TI Corp paid hundreds of millions more for more staff, supervisors, and equipment to speed up work on the interchange.

But construction data, which tracked the progress of the work, didn't match the invoices.

Consultants plotted that progress on a graph.

They discovered that at the time the contractor was predicting an 18-month delay, their analysis showed the interchange was only two months behind.

The contractor, Kiewit Flatiron, declined CBC's request for an interview.

TI Corp told CBC the contractor was dealing with legitimate delays caused by third parties, utilities and weather.

"These delays were out of the control of the contractor, and outside the scope of the Design Build Agreement. TI Corp instructed the contractor to apply resources to complete this section on schedule," said Greg Johnson, TI Corp's director of communications, in a statement to CBC.

KPMG said it rejected the contractor's extension request, and negotiated it down from 18 to six months.

[...]

Extra work not needed

The leaked review contained several other findings.

Even though the report cited delays on the Cape Horn interchange, it said work wasn't actually accelerated on that interchange at all.

Instead, the extra resources, staff and equipment were "reallocated" to the Surrey side of the bridge.

"There was a discordance between the data and the narratives," concluded the review.

While TI Corp and Webster had approved the acceleration invoices, month after month in 2012, they said they acted on all the concerns raised in the review and later renegotiated and got $200 million back.

But the review found another discrepancy.

The final part of the project, the Fraser Heights connecter in Surrey was finishing faster even though that work was not required for another year, according to the contract schedule.

TI Corp rejected any suggestion that the millions paid to speed up the project were spent elsewhere, and says the team working on that part of the project finished early because they were good at their jobs, said a former TI Corp official, who spoke to CBC on background.

KPMG said it was "not the result of any direction on the part of TI Corp but rather reflected the contractor's own decision about how to deploy its resources."

The former TI Corp official who spoke to CBC confirmed that the Crown corporation hired a second auditing firm to review some acceleration invoices in the summer of 2012, to make sure they were not overpaying.

A consultant familiar with the audit told CBC it also concluded that much of the extra work TI Corp had approved to speed up the project was already covered by the base contract.

[...]

B.C. rules not followed

Another example of "weak oversight" was that TI Corp did not establish an audit committee during construction, say the consultants.

All B.C. Crown corporations are supposed to form a committee of experts to oversee spending.

It didn't establish such a committee until 2013, when the bulk of the money was spent and the bridge built.

Sources close to the project say at least $150 million would not have been spent if the project had proper oversight.

Insiders also say B.C.'s procurement rules were not followed on some change orders.

While extra overpasses were needed, and power, rail and sewer lines had to be moved, any other extra construction worth more than $100,000 should have gone to tender.

But that didn't always happen on the Port Mann project.

For example, the $31 million Fraser Heights Bridge and a parking lot in Langley were both sole sourced to Kiewit Flatiron, without going to tender, and were then subcontracted to other contractors, adding layers of extra cost to taxpayers.

The park-and-ride was the worst example, said one of the consultants.

"The government gave away about $100 million and there were three layers of subcontracting and additional markups. The cost was then close to double of what it could have been built for," he said.

TI Corp's former official claimed they did nothing wrong and were allowed to award the work to Kiewit Flatiron using a change order, to avoid having contractors overlapping on the job site.

He said most of the costs of that parking lot were later borne by the Ministry of Transportation and Translink, reducing TI Corp's costs to $26 million.

TI Corp said in the end they paid $300 million for additional work, including $99 million for acceleration and $72 million for extra gravel, some of which was linked to acceleration.

The leaked review said TI Corp was too generous with one of the bigger ticket items needed to build the bridge.

More than three million cubic metres of gravel were used constructing the project. The contract stated exactly how much gravel could be used for free from nearby provincial gravel pits.

TI Corp allowed the contractor to take double what was allowed from the nearest pit.

And rather than rely on provincial gravel from pits farther away, the contractor was also allowed to invoice for commercially purchased gravel which saved time, but cost millions, according to the review.

But KPMG says that gravel was needed and the contractor did not exceed contract limits.

[...]
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...elieve-cost-taxpayers-millions-1.4144535

Anyway, that's an important read when we're talking about the PMB and the Liberal governments' transportation legacy.
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  #2715  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 10:55 PM
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I think everybody's missing a major point in this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikinlittle View Post
And would we want to encourage that growth to be more automobile dependent (which building a bridge would do), or complete communities with transit-oriented development?
If South Surrey is going to "blow up", then they should do so in such a fashion that South Surrey becomes more of a complete community where people can live, shop, and work without having to drive to Richmond or Vancouver. It doesn't have to do with increasing transit across the river, it has everything to do with decreasing the number of trips made across the river per person.

If you can shift 5% of the trips across the river to stay south of the river then you've won. Don't change how the trips are made, eliminate them entirely.

South Surrey could be capitalizing on its location right next to the border somehow, but they seem to just want to become another bedroom community where people have to drive to Vancouver or Burnaby to work.
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  #2716  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ClaytonA View Post
The GMB project was for SOV to commute to work.
Clearly you have no firsthand experience at all of the current state of traffic using this corridor. Think what you want of people living on the floodplain or driving SOV to work, but that is beside the point. Richmond is a massive jobs center, one of the cradles of industry in the region, with way more commuters entering than leaving for work, and its highways are choked with more heavy/commercial traffic than any others in the region including Hwy 1. You could halt all residential construction in Richmond tomorrow, and it would still be a crucial part of the region and a logical place to locate industry, and this corridor would still need upgrading.
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  #2717  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:27 PM
whatnext whatnext is online now
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
You could conceivably commute from Ladner to Riverside Industrial Park south of Steveston Highway.

Regardless, forget about cycling. If we want to improve transit to this part of the region, you need the bridge.

Obviously there are many jobs that require a car, but most don't. It is feasible to have many more people taking transit to work than do today. Replacing the tunnel could be a big step towards that too.
You don't need the bridge to improve transit, you could a two lane tunnel reserved solely for busses (or trucks and busses). The HOV lanes already exist on either side of the tunnel, there's absolutely no reason transit needs a 10 lane bridge.
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  #2718  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SFUVancouver View Post
This old tired straw-man... Just let it rest. Nobody is saying that. Nobody is expecting that. That would be impossible.



That makes for an outrageous read.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...elieve-cost-taxpayers-millions-1.4144535

Anyway, that's an important read when we're talking about the PMB and the Liberal governments' transportation legacy.
I read that this morning. Posted it in the transportation infrastructure thread a few minutes ago.

From my knowledge/read of the article (not having pored over the reference documents yet), there's a lot of things they're claiming that they make look shady on the contractor's point of view, but were really mismanagement on the side of TICorp that led to cost overruns.

A couple quotes I'll highlight:

Quote:
TI Corp told CBC the contractor was dealing with legitimate delays caused by third parties, utilities and weather.
Quote:
And rather than rely on provincial gravel from pits farther away, the contractor was also allowed to invoice for commercially purchased gravel which saved time, but cost millions, according to the review.

But KPMG says that gravel was needed and the contractor did not exceed contract limits.
There's a reason that TICorp was on the hook for the extra gravel.

One thing I definitely agree was shady re: port mann was that they still decided to award to Kiewit/Flatiron after the financier fell through. A P3 and DB project are not the same thing & it should have been awarded to the next lowest bidder.
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  #2719  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by M00dy View Post
I read that this morning. Posted it in the transportation infrastructure thread a few minutes ago.

From my knowledge/read of the article (not having pored over the reference documents yet), there's a lot of things they're claiming that they make look shady on the contractor's point of view, but were really mismanagement on the side of TICorp that led to cost overruns.

A couple quotes I'll highlight:





There's a reason that TICorp was on the hook for the extra gravel.

One thing I definitely agree was shady re: port mann was that they still decided to award to Kiewit/Flatiron after the financier fell through. A P3 and DB project are not the same thing & it should have been awarded to the next lowest bidder.
Also re: this quote:

Quote:
For example, the $31 million Fraser Heights Bridge and a parking lot in Langley were both sole sourced to Kiewit Flatiron, without going to tender, and were then subcontracted to other contractors, adding layers of extra cost to taxpayers.
While maybe one could argue those should have gone to tender, there's some pretty major contract risks in awarding follow-on or interfacing projects after an original contract was awarded. If you didn't have the PMH1 contractor managing these interfacing works & they had any impact on the PMH1 project you'd be looking at more change orders.
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  #2720  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2017, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by M00dy View Post
And again you didn't say anything about the technical details of bridge piling. I'll just assume you don't know anything about it.

You know what else is affected by liquifiable soils? A tunnel sitting on/in them with no ground improvements to mitigate the liquifaction.
OK Mr. Soil Expert, you got me. Since you turned up here just in time for this thread, you're undoubtedly the expert. Might want to look for another gig though.
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