Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

and is 500M that bad? The dallas stars are the 15th most valuable NHL team at 420M 11 teams are worth over 500k. So you almost instantly recoup your costs in equity and anything you make at the seasons end is ROI. When/if you sell the team you get your original investment back.

According to forbes the Jets are already worth 358M 5 years later. So lets say Quebec pays 300M for an NHL team they basically gain 50Mish right off the hop in equity and the value of NHL clubs is constantly rising. I don't think 500M although a high number is that out of the question when you would be paying 500M for the Washington capitals today.

The declining Canadian dollar will likely take a bite out of Canadian team values. It's partially what led to the demise of versions 1 of the Jets and Nordiques (and also threatened the existence all other Canadian teams except Toronto and Montreal). I think they are in a better position to weather that storm now, but it will still have a negative impact.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/stadium+fare+changed+dramatically/11268906/story.html

My own personal rankings:
1) IGF Wpg: great atmosphere
2) THF Ham: the one side (w/press box) seems very nice anyway
3) TD Ott: ditto
4) BC Place: too big for CFL
5) Commonwealth Edm: ditto
6) Molson Mtl: great location but not very modern
7) Mosaic Sk: complete dump but atmosphere is great
8) Skydome Tor: Argos cant get out of there fast enough
9) McMahon: horrible game experience - way past its due date

Lions have cut off the upper deck the way thevWhitecaps do except with a 27 000 capacity. Makes the stadium seem smaller and better atmosphere. So BC Place #1 now?

[tomthumb2]

Originally Posted by logan5

Lions have cut off the upper deck the way thevWhitecaps do except with a 27 000 capacity. Makes the stadium seem smaller and better atmosphere. So BC Place #1 now?

I don't know. Those "drapes" look a bit goofy on TV. I know what they're trying to do but not sure it works. Have you been at a game when its set up like that? Does it make it feel better? Other than that it probably is the nicest stadium in Canada - just maybe not the best for CFL games?

I went to a game there before the renos and it was way too cavernous and that roof gave a depressing feel. Since then its been transformed into a real beauty - at least it looks like one on TV!

[isaidso]

The BC Lions used to average just under 40,000/game. Now they're just over 20,000/game. What's happening?

[ZeDgE]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/stadium+fare+changed+dramatically/11268906/story.html

My own personal rankings:
1) IGF Wpg: great atmosphere
2) THF Ham: the one side (w/press box) seems very nice anyway
3) TD Ott: ditto
4) BC Place: too big for CFL
5) Commonwealth Edm: ditto
6) Molson Mtl: great location but not very modern
7) Mosaic Sk: complete dump but atmosphere is great
8) Skydome Tor: Argos cant get out of there fast enough
9) McMahon: horrible game experience - way past its due date

Sounds about right.

[GreaterMontréal]

Molson Mtl: great location but not very modern

the stadium is nice when you drink

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The BC Lions used to average just under 40,000/game. Now they're just over 20,000/game. What's happening?

That's the big question... Most common answers are;

-Ticket prices - Cheapest seat is $34 + charges
-Whitecaps are basically overlapping the season
-Apathy - team is not doing that well and haven't had a great start and had a poor finish to last year
-Core fans are getting priced out and/or are now living in Langley and further out meaning they have to pay bridge tolls on top of parking, tickets, food etc. so it just may be easier to watch it at home on your 60" HDTV

The other things (and I am a Lions season ticket holder):
Half time panel or whatever you want to call it is dull - I like it for before and after the game but not at Half time
Cheerleaders are useless - Every time I see Edmonton with their Cheer Team actually doing flips and stuff, I think that is great!
Need to do more with the in game experieince - They have added a "drum core" to play during the breaks which is cool, but they played once last game
They CFL also needs to pick up the pace and get games back under 3 hours; my kids are beat in the 4th quarter. MLS games are done in 2 hours.

[Oilkountry]

Ive noticed this season IGF's attendance has been terrible I wouldn't say they have seen 25K in the building yet this season even the home opener. As a bombers fans this is concerning for me. to see the corners of the upper deck basicly completly empty along with the entire end zone seating arena. Even a couple chunks of the lower decks seem to be struggling.

As for the lions I don't understand how They have continued with this raised ticket prices model if they have lost %50 of the market. That is absolutely disgusting in terms of not only ticket sales but concession sales as well. Braley can be a greedy idiot and in this case It's killing him. If you lost 10% that's 1 thing it might half way even itself out but 50% Would ring every bell possible in my mind I would let people in the building for next to nothing just to try and salvage the situation

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

the stadium is nice when you drink

So are some of the ladies ive taken home. Doesn't change the reality.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Ive noticed this season IGF's attendance has been terrible I wouldn't say they have seen 25K in the building yet this season even the home opener. As a bombers fans this is concerning for me. to see the corners of the upper deck basicly completly empty along with the entire end zone seating arena. Even a couple chunks of the lower decks seem to be struggling.

Simply put, our fanbase is beaten down. This is a team that has been in the playoffs once in the last 6 years, and during that time has received all kinds of terrible press for things that involve football operations (Mike Kelly debacle, Joe Mack fiasco, gross ineptitude that shifts from one position group to another each season) as well as off-field stuff (stadium cost overruns and bad press due to litigation-motivated finger-pointing). To top it off a lot people can't be bothered to figure out how to navigate their way down to IGF, and of course a NHL team suddenly popped up and has taken a large slice of the local sports market.

The amount of goodwill in this community towards the Bombers is immense. I seriously think people would get behind the Bombers here even more than Sask does for the Riders. But the problem is that goodwill has been brutally squandered for pretty well the last 7 years or so. If the Bombers had even been a few games over .500 in that time instead of going 45-81, I'm sure the fan support would be there and there would be sellouts or near sellouts. But as it stands, the team is basically giving people every reason to stay home and do something else with their money instead.

It's frustrating, because this team should be (and could be) drawing 33,500 fans to every game.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

Have you been at a game when its set up like that? Does it make it feel better? Other than that it probably is the nicest stadium in Canada - just maybe not the best for CFL games?

Have not been to a Whitecaps game yet so I'm going by word of mouth that the atmosphere is better with the drapes.

Originally Posted by isaidso

The BC Lions used to average just under 40,000/game. Now they're just over 20,000/game. What's happening?

To add to the previous list... With each passing year, Vancouver becomes more and more a Seahawks town. Not just increased competition from the NFL but from MLS as well. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse for the Lions as the Whitecaps gain more traction in this city.

[logan5]

Another thing regarding CFL vs MLS. I don't know if Soccer broadcasts are mic'd differently, but the noise level and the singing really come through on the TV broadcasts. It sounds like a place you want to be no matter what the score is or how bad the actual game might be, like it was last night. The CFL broadcasts sound so dead, you would never feel compelled to attend a game live and maybe become a fan of the team. Right now the Whitecaps are killing the Lions from a marketing perspective, so of course the Lions franchise is starting to fade.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by logan5

To add to the previous list... With each passing year, Vancouver becomes more and more a Seahawks town.

This kind of cross-border bandwagoning comes and goes with a team's fortunes. Remember in the 90s when Toronto was ga-ga for the Bills? You don't hear much about that anymore. For a brief time Winnipeggers would head down to Minneapolis in significant numbers to watch the Vikings, but then that cooled off. If the Seahawks miss the playoffs a few years in a row, Vancouver will probably jump off that bandwagon too.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by logan5

Have not been to a Whitecaps game yet so I'm going by word of mouth that the atmosphere is better with the drapes.



To add to the previous list... With each passing year, Vancouver becomes more and more a Seahawks town. Not just increased competition from the NFL but from MLS as well. I'm afraid it's only going to get worse for the Lions as the Whitecaps gain more traction in this city.

I still think soccer is a fad and I'm not really worried about it hurting the Lions long term. Just by comparing the Whitecaps' attendance to their TV numbers, you can see the fans are hardcore, but there's not many of them. Regardless, I don't think they share much of an audience. I know I'm stereotyping, but Whitecaps fans seem to be primarily hipsters while Lions definitely aren't. The Seahawks are only doing so well because the team is doing well. Vancouver is a bandwagon city, so its support will reflect that. Once the Seahawks reign of dominance is over, I think their prominence here will wane as well.

[Acajack]

I kind of see the same thing happening in Montreal and Quebec with the Alouettes and L'Impact.

The Alouettes have slightly higher attendance and I am sure their TV numbers are better, but you definitely sense that L'Impact is doing a lot better on the marketing front. They've been talked about a lot more this summer and this was apparent even before the Didier Drogba signing.

I don't know about Vancouver but I don't think soccer is just a fad here. Immigration to Montreal and Quebec is almost all from soccer-mad countries but the newer generations of native-born kids who play soccer are now transitioning into fans of soccer as a spectator sport. When we were lots of us played soccer but when we got home we all watched hockey, baseball and CFL-NFL. The new generations are different.

Totally unscientific but when I've listened to the major sports radio shows in Quebec (Les Amateurs de Sport, Bonsoir les Sportifs) lately there's been way more soccer talk than football talk. Tonight I happened to hear it and it was soccer talk, but not even about Drogba. It was about the rules and whether FIFA should crack down on diving.

[canucklehead2]

Soccer will always be a niche sport here but I do think it has a home in the major markets which house a diverse array of people from across the planet where soccer is the ONLY sport... I.e. Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary... Personally I still hope that one day we can sustain our own Canadian premier league on par with MLS or better with the attendance # as CFL but that is obviously an up-hill battle...

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

This kind of cross-border bandwagoning comes and goes with a team's fortunes. Remember in the 90s when Toronto was ga-ga for the Bills? You don't hear much about that anymore. For a brief time Winnipeggers would head down to Minneapolis in significant numbers to watch the Vikings, but then that cooled off. If the Seahawks miss the playoffs a few years in a row, Vancouver will probably jump off that bandwagon too.

They did it with their own team why wouldn't they do it with Seattle. One bad year and rogers arena was a ghost town for some games. Vancouver is a tricky market

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

This kind of cross-border bandwagoning comes and goes with a team's fortunes. Remember in the 90s when Toronto was ga-ga for the Bills? You don't hear much about that anymore. For a brief time Winnipeggers would head down to Minneapolis in significant numbers to watch the Vikings, but then that cooled off. If the Seahawks miss the playoffs a few years in a row, Vancouver will probably jump off that bandwagon too.

I think you're probably right. I mean, it's different for places like Windsor which are right on the border and the Detroit teams are right there. Time will tell, although I do think Vancouver will retain a decent Seahawks following in town. But a ''Seahawks town''? That seems like a bit of an exaggeration.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

Soccer will always be a niche sport here but I do think it has a home in the major markets which house a diverse array of people from across the planet where soccer is the ONLY sport... I.e. Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, Calgary... Personally I still hope that one day we can sustain our own Canadian premier league on par with MLS or better with the attendance # as CFL but that is obviously an up-hill battle...

Soccer is not a niche sport here. The old NASL Whitecaps were one of the last teams hanging in there when the league finally called it quits. As long as MLS is alive, the Whitecaps will be alive.

Localized TV ratings are probly around half of what the Lions get, which is pretty good for a 5th year team, and a team that is trying to capture a TV audience twice a week vs the Lions once a week.

[logan5]

Not a huge difference between Lions and Seahawks. Hardcore followers in the youngest demographic is almost identical.


http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Canucks+Whitecaps+give+Lions/10930298/story.html