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  #241  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 12:35 AM
Tropics Tropics is offline
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
Gondola
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.7-3.5M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 17-18 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 3-4 minutes

Ped/bike/bus bridge
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.5-2M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 0 minutes
Also shortens trips between other destinations in the NW and SW that gondola wont, plus it benefits cyclists and pedestrians, and it may be upgradable to rail one day.
A gondola is a very pedestrian friendly form of transit that turns a very long walk (that not many people are likely to do in poor weather) into a quick scenic ride over the river to a stop that allows for a quick walk into the Foothills or university. A gondola could fairly easily be built to allow bikes to also be brought on board to allow for the merging of biking and a gondola trip.

My condo is in Spruce Cliff and when I was going to university I can guarantee I would not have walked to University even with a bridge that went straight out of Spruce Cliff (there is already a pedestrian bridge under Crowchild). I definitely was not going to take the LRT due to the transfer and extra time investment, and I am not a fan of busses so that was out. I most certainly would have taken a gondola trip though, just as if I lived in Spruce Cliff still and worked in DT Calgary I would definitely take the LRT to work.

In the world of transit busses have a stigma, people are a lot more likely to take the LRT or a well built gondola trip that would never consider taking a bus. It might not be right, but that is certainly the reality for many people.
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  #242  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 2:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
The way I see it, here are the options:

No change
Capital: $0
Operating Cost: $1.5-2M/yr

Gondola
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.7-3.5M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 17-18 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 3-4 minutes

Ped/bike/bus bridge
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.5-2M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 0 minutes
Also shortens trips between other destinations in the NW and SW that gondola wont, plus it benefits cyclists and pedestrians, and it may be upgradable to rail one day.

I think the Gondola has the best chance of spurring development at Westbrook, but it can only serve a limited number of terminals before it negatively affects service between others. My mind isn't made up on which way is the best way to go. I also do not yet have a clear picture of the costs/challenges of building a bridge out of Spruce Cliff.
Roller Coaster
Capital:$52M/2.5km
Operating Cost: Unknown, but carneys are cheap.
Shortens all trips by some factor of Awesome x Awesome

Capital costs are based off of the longest coaster I could find. Not sure what distance we would need, but I believe the costs are competitive with what you listed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Dragon_2000
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  #243  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 3:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
Roller Coaster
Capital:$52M/2.5km
Operating Cost: Unknown, but carneys are cheap.
Shortens all trips by some factor of Awesome x Awesome

Capital costs are based off of the longest coaster I could find. Not sure what distance we would need, but I believe the costs are competitive with what you listed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Dragon_2000
That would be amazing.
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  #244  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 3:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Buses/Roads, Trains/Tracks are also pretty hefty on the maintenance. I wonder what the comparison would be.
There is a reason ski hills tend to replace lifts every 15-20 years. The wear and tear of so many moving parts and the fact that each installation is basically custom and will always require very expensive custom parts. The quoted operating costs can't include depreciation.

Couldn't LRT work between Westbrook and U of C? It could follow the road down to Edworthy, cross the river, go to Foothills, Children's, and then the existing University station. It would likely require many elevated sections to mange the grades. It could eventually extend south to MRU and then follow the SW ring road to connect to the south line and maybe even the SE line. Of course we'll all be long dead by then.
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  #245  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:04 AM
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RyLucky RyLucky is offline
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Originally Posted by Tropics View Post
A gondola is a very pedestrian friendly form of transit that turns a very long walk (that not many people are likely to do in poor weather) into a quick scenic ride over the river to a stop that allows for a quick walk into the Foothills or university. A gondola could fairly easily be built to allow bikes to also be brought on board to allow for the merging of biking and a gondola trip.

My condo is in Spruce Cliff and when I was going to university I can guarantee I would not have walked to University even with a bridge that went straight out of Spruce Cliff (there is already a pedestrian bridge under Crowchild). I definitely was not going to take the LRT due to the transfer and extra time investment, and I am not a fan of busses so that was out. I most certainly would have taken a gondola trip though, just as if I lived in Spruce Cliff still and worked in DT Calgary I would definitely take the LRT to work.

In the world of transit busses have a stigma, people are a lot more likely to take the LRT or a well built gondola trip that would never consider taking a bus. It might not be right, but that is certainly the reality for many people.
I agree with you. Actually, I've probably crossed that valley a thousand times on bike or foot and another thousand by transit (I've worked, studied, and volunteered at UofC, Tom Baker, Foothills, HSC, ARBI, and Shaganappi GC).

Gondola would be the way to go if you are heading to one of the terminals. However, I'm not sure if it would help you much if, say, you were heading from your condo in Spruce Cliff to Market Mall, assuming you would have to walk to Westbrook - gondola to Foothills - and transfer to another bus to Market Mall. A bridge on the other hand might mean a lot of bus routes could pass right through Spruce Cliff and take you to wherever you want to go. And, of course, some people would ride or walk too. Like you said, long walks are no fun, and adding a bridge would cut >2 km off the journey. Maybe one day a bridge could be upgraded to rail.

Like I said, I haven't made up my mind one way or the other. Just playing devils advocate. I'm a little worried that folks (including myself a bit) are in love with the gondola idea just because of how cool it would be.
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  #246  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:09 AM
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What the heck, here's my master plan from a few years back
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  #247  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
There is a reason ski hills tend to replace lifts every 15-20 years. The wear and tear of so many moving parts and the fact that each installation is basically custom and will always require very expensive custom parts. The quoted operating costs can't include depreciation.

Couldn't LRT work between Westbrook and U of C? It could follow the road down to Edworthy, cross the river, go to Foothills, Children's, and then the existing University station. It would likely require many elevated sections to mange the grades. It could eventually extend south to MRU and then follow the SW ring road to connect to the south line and maybe even the SE line. Of course we'll all be long dead by then.
Possibly, but a proposal for a transit road/bridge through edworthy was so controversial when it was in the draft Calgary Transportation Plan that it was deleted and virtually promised never to be spoken of again. It's thought a gondola would have a much lower impact. Nevertheless, it's a ways away still (beyond the 10 yr horizon for RouteAhead) so it'll be a while before it's seriously revisited.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.850886
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  #248  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:20 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
There is a reason ski hills tend to replace lifts every 15-20 years. The wear and tear of so many moving parts and the fact that each installation is basically custom and will always require very expensive custom parts. The quoted operating costs can't include depreciation.
I'm not sure this is true. The usual reason for a ski hill replacing lifts is to increase capacity and uplift speed, and they are very slow to replace them, with there still being many 2 and 3 man fixed grip lifts on the hills. When they do come to replace them, the old lift is often moved to a different location, or sold to a different hill - suggesting that they are in fact quite reliable even after many years. I don't see how each installation is particularly custom - especially compared to a rail system.

Railways aren't exactly maintenance free either!
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  #249  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:36 AM
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I have to agree that an LRT through Edworthy will ruin the park. Something between Spruce Dr SW and 29th St NW would have less impact on the valley, but would be at least as disruptive to residents. Picture Edmonton's LRT bridge, elevated in the valley and below grade within the neighbourhood.

A double-decker bridge with bus on the top and pedestrian on the bottom, eventually flipped so pedestrians go on the top and rail on the bottom?
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  #250  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 9:32 AM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
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I would say that any proposal for a bridge there would have the communities in the area arising en masse. But they’d have to be careful where they put the gondola as well. Going down the gully between the golf course and Cedar Cr. would not be a winner either. There was a proposal to expand the golf course into that area some years ago, but an overflow meeting with about 95% of the people against opposed put an end to that. You might be able to take it down west of Cedar Cr., but it’s going to be a bit tricky wherever you do it because of the power line. I wonder if there’s any chance that they’d move or bury that power line?
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  #251  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
What the heck, here's my master plan from a few years back
I think this is a pretty decent long term plan, especially if a few of the routes start as limited stop buses, then BRT (dedicated lanes) and finally

1. Yellow line. This is a pretty good idea. I wonder what the likelihood is of using the CPR ROW through downtown to connect the two ends of the line when they are LRT? It just might be feasible. One comment though is that the south portion should go over the causeway and south via Cedarbrae/Palliser rather than through the Weaslehead. There just aren't any riders in that area. Also, going through 26th avenue in the SW seems problematic.
2. Green line. Many parts of this would be quite costly for little ridership- such as the extension in the NE past Stoney, or the portion through Country Hills/Shaganappi. The South portion makes sense to me, but most of the northern section doesnt.
3. Red line. Interesting ideas. You are basically combining the North Crosstown with the 52nd street BRT and adding in a south crosstown on Anderson. However, if the southern portion will just be a limited stop bus, why build a new river crossing at Anderson rather than just using the Ivor Strong and going up via 24th street?
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  #252  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 4:38 PM
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The quickest win I see there is adding an LRT station at Northland Village Mall (or is it shoppes). I would like to see how much it would slow down the system.
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  #253  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 8:48 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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The entire Green Line was just quoted by a City of Calgary at $4.5 billion for 43 (might have been 45) kilometers at a legislature committee.
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  #254  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
The entire Green Line was just quoted by a City of Calgary at $4.5 billion for 43 (might have been 45) kilometers at a legislature committee.
Any idea how they might have got a number like that if they haven't exactly decided on the north segment route?
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  #255  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 10:09 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Any idea how they might have got a number like that if they haven't exactly decided on the north segment route?
It's entirely possible they have a list of options internally all costed - it's often not in a government's (or the populations) best interest to release routes too early as it can have negative influences, like NIMBYs whining.

$4.5B is a lot, but not unreasonable. Having a figure is a good thing at least, it will give us a target to aim for.
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  #256  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
I think this is a pretty decent long term plan, especially if a few of the routes start as limited stop buses, then BRT (dedicated lanes) and finally

1. Yellow line. This is a pretty good idea. I wonder what the likelihood is of using the CPR ROW through downtown to connect the two ends of the line when they are LRT? It just might be feasible. One comment though is that the south portion should go over the causeway and south via Cedarbrae/Palliser rather than through the Weaslehead. There just aren't any riders in that area. Also, going through 26th avenue in the SW seems problematic.
2. Green line. Many parts of this would be quite costly for little ridership- such as the extension in the NE past Stoney, or the portion through Country Hills/Shaganappi. The South portion makes sense to me, but most of the northern section doesnt.
3. Red line. Interesting ideas. You are basically combining the North Crosstown with the 52nd street BRT and adding in a south crosstown on Anderson. However, if the southern portion will just be a limited stop bus, why build a new river crossing at Anderson rather than just using the Ivor Strong and going up via 24th street?
1.Yeah, when I made that "yellow line" I wanted to somehow better connect the Beltline with the LRT. Since then, I've reconsidered, and would probably now keep the line on 10th/CPR until Crowchild. As for following 37th St instead of 14th St, my rationale was to avoid competition with the SLRT, encourage bidirectional travel on the red and orange lines, avoid additional crossings at Fish Creek, and allow for massive Sprawl in Evergreen. I also had imagined that it would allow development along 37th (Imagine the view from the 6th floor of a retirement home there! - It's all just a bit of fantasy anyway..). 14th St could also work.
2. Green Line. The reason I extended it so far is because I was trying to imagine what Calgary would look like in 50 years. Already, it is very difficult to get between the NW and NE by transit, and I thought the city might one day need a connector that runs north of Nose Hill. In my imagination, it would be BRT for years, gradually being upgraded bit by bit, eventually allowing a big non-stop arc from new communities east of the Airport, to YYC, through the NW to UofC and Foothills and MRU, etc.
3. Red Line. One thing that bothered me about the last iteration of RouteAhead was how disjointed everything was. For instance, if I lived in Forest Lawn and was going to SAIT, I'd much prefer to take one route rather than transfer; same if I lived in Vista Heights and worked in Quarry Park; or lived in Braeside and worked at the PLC. Having two high-frequency routes terminate at the same point creates needless transfers, especially when they head opposite directions from the hub. As for your point about Ivor Strong, I think it's a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
The quickest win I see there is adding an LRT station at Northland Village Mall (or is it shoppes). I would like to see how much it would slow down the system.
I've always felt it was a little strange to have no station and Northland, but it wouldn't help the situation with Foothills, ACH, West Campus, and Market - all of which have a far greater need. That said, I think a station at Northland would be at least as busy as Dalhousie, Crowfoot, and Tuscany. We also could have built it for a lot cheaper than adding Tuscany...
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  #257  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2014, 10:42 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Also, important to remember west LRT was $550 million in ~2005 for a pretty bare bones line (without land and LRT fleet costs iirc). In project planning I think it would be called minimum functional requirement. Lots of at grade crossings, ground level running as soon as possible. For the low Green line quote.

Last edited by MalcolmTucker; Feb 4, 2014 at 10:57 PM.
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  #258  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2014, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
The entire Green Line was just quoted by a City of Calgary at $4.5 billion for 43 (might have been 45) kilometers at a legislature committee.
Hmm. I only get ~38 km for Country Hills to Seton; I wonder if this includes future extensions? In any case, $100M per km seems like a fairly lowball estimate; at grade is in the range of $50M per km, no?
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  #259  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2014, 12:35 AM
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Hmm. I only get ~38 km for Country Hills to Seton; I wonder if this includes future extensions? In any case, $100M per km seems like a fairly lowball estimate; at grade is in the range of $50M per km, no?
It may include substantial underground sections in the core.
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  #260  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2014, 7:48 PM
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One idea I had for raising money for this project- what if they sold long term transit passes? Obviously this is just a rough idea but here's what I was thinking:

- 10 year commitment required. (not sure how you'd enforce that.)
- $150 per month. So slightly higher than a current pass, but you are building the new system.
- Ground get broken right away (figuratively, obviously some planning needs to occur.)

If you could get 100,000 people to sign up, that represents a commitment of $1.8 B over 10 years. Now I know 100,000 sounds high; I'm thinking that in addition to NC and SE users signing up, you could get others who might look at the long term value of the pass (by years 8-10 it could be cheaper than the future price), and those who may do it for the sake of wanting to be one of the builders of the new line. Maybe even set aside park and ride spots for these pass holders.

I know that does leave a shortfall, but hopefully you could get the province and the federal gov't to help cover some of the rest. Maybe also get some input from businesses (I don't know if there's a way to make this a tax deduction)
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