Calgary's $8 BILLION Transit Plan - The RouteAhead

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Tropics

Westbrook mall is by no means new and certainly most of the sqf of that mall is not terribly profitable past the Safeway and the Walmart. The mall often has vacant stores and is full of dollar stores, cheap cookwear, and other not terribly profitable store types. It is the very type of mall that usually screams that it is reaching it's shelf life.

This is exactly my point, if the owners of Westbrook aren't interested in developing an old, cheap mall, why would the owners of the 130th shopping center want to do it either.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

Though I'd like it a little bit more if there was a BRT link between Westbrook and U of C making it more of a direct trip

The Westbrook to Foothills and UofC Gondola FTW.

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190837

The trip from those two areas on public transit is extremely long for the distance traveled. That gondola is a key link to get people from the SW to the NW without having them have to go downtown and then backtrack back west after a transfer.

MRU is supposed to have BRT from Westbrook and the gondola getting people in the NW to Westbrook on a virtually direct route would save a massive amount of those peoples time.

Plus the Foothills should certainly be linked into public transit infrastructure beyond busses. By linking the Foothills Medical Centre by gondola to the University and Westbrook you are linking it to the two current LRT routes.

Plus, a gondola would look awesome going over the Bow River and add another relatively unique thing to the city.

[Fuzz]

I'd be concerned the amount of wind, specifically westerlies blowing cross wind across the river valley would cause big problems for a gondola.

[Tropics]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd be concerned the amount of wind, specifically westerlies blowing cross wind across the river valley would cause big problems for a gondola.

Tri-cable designs are supposedly quite stable in all but the highest of winds. In freak wind storms where you get gusts over safe levels you would need to potentially shut the gondola down until the wind subsides but that would likely be the freak 1 time per a year wind storms where shingles are torn off of roofs and trees lose branches.

http://gondolaproject.com/3s/

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Sorry to be going back a few pages to respond to this post, but just wanted to clarify something.

LOC2013-0050, for parcel 12787 40 St SE. Looking to increase the density on an I-B designation. I-B is the same designation that much of the office portion of Quarry Park has.

So I picture this area developing as such. Intense office development (more dense than Quarry Park) happening on the north side of 130th avenue, potentially bringing thousands of jobs to the area all based around the train station.

Most of the south side of 130th avenue (still large parcels that would allow for easy redevelopment on a massive scale) is beyond the environmental setback areas that affect the north. Plus, those parcels border on the community of Prestwick, which has many residents already. The south half of 130th Ave could be the higher intensity residential of the TOD, along with the commercial main floors and uses such as restaurants that wouldn't be allowed in the setback areas. This portion would not only bring in many more residents, but many more of the services/retail that the community of Prestwick is currently lacking.

I don't think you'll see that happen for at least 20 years considering they're still building 130th (last parcel by Lowe's). The area I know of that's slated for office is the field right next to Deerfoot which will be an absolute clusterfuck even with transit. Part of the solution is to connect 40th st down to 48th but even then the intersection at 40th and 114th is a gong show every rush hour. The city needs to either build an overpass there or lengthen the dual turn lanes. As it is you have trucks from the flying J blocking that intersection waiting to get into a turn lane to go to Deerfoot. This part of the city is the worst I can think of for this.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Tropics

Tri-cable designs are supposedly quite stable in all but the highest of winds. In freak wind storms where you get gusts over safe levels you would need to potentially shut the gondola down until the wind subsides but that would likely be the freak 1 time per a year wind storms where shingles are torn off of roofs and trees lose branches.

http://gondolaproject.com/3s/

Interesting, Wikipedia says they can operate in winds up to 80 km/h. I wonder if that means cross winds...Has any analysis been done on how many days it would be inoperable per year?

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Interesting, Wikipedia says they can operate in winds up to 80 km/h. I wonder if that means cross winds...Has any analysis been done on how many days it would be inoperable per year?

Mountain gondolas would have more common high-wind conditions I would assume. Is it likely that it would be an issue in the city rather than the occasional extreme example / thunderstorm?

It would make up for those occasional shut-downs by being able to provide regular service after heavy snowfalls compared to the rest of the system.

[Fuzz]

Well they do, and the Sunshine Gondola suffers from it. Calgary tends to get some very strong wind days. If 80km/h is sustained wind limit, it may not be much of a problem, but if it is gusts there must be at least 10 days a year with that strength, probably more.

[Cruzer]

A Gondola link is very intriguing. I was thinking more around a temporary BRT route linking UofC - Foothills - ACH, taking TCH up to Sarcee then Bow Trail to Westbrook onwards to MRU. It doesn't seem overly time consuming considering you're not having to cut through downtown.

Probably a noob question but would these Gondola's be heated?

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Tropics

Tri-cable designs are supposedly quite stable in all but the highest of winds. In freak wind storms where you get gusts over safe levels you would need to potentially shut the gondola down until the wind subsides but that would likely be the freak 1 time per a year wind storms where shingles are torn off of roofs and trees lose branches.

http://gondolaproject.com/3s/

There are lots of tri cable gondolas and trams in extremely windy locations. The biggest challenge is that aerial tramways are very high maintenance. They have many moving parts that constantly wear. The operating costs are enormous.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Doug

There are lots of tri cable gondolas and trams in extremely windy locations. The biggest challenge is that aerial tramways are very high maintenance. They have many moving parts that constantly wear. The operating costs are enormous.

Portland's gondola cost $57M and has an annual operating cost of $1.7M. It travels around 35 km/hr. Depending on how Calgary decided to do it, I think a decent system over the Bow in our economy could be twice as much.

If Calgary's went 35 km/hr between Westbrook and UofC (perhaps with other stops - I'm not sure how that works with Gondolas), a trip would take no more than 8-9 minutes (no stops; 5-6 for Foothills). Currently, to travel between Westbrook and UofC at 9am takes 13 minutes (bus stop to bus stop, no wait) and Westbrook to Foothills takes 23 minutes (one transfer).

I wonder how much operating costs are for comparable bus route service? The 72 (coincidentally) runs 72 times/day, and the same for the 73. If you cut out 12 minutes for each of those (12*72*2), that's about 29 service hours each day (hours of the bus actually being in service), or approximately 9 761 service hours per year. I've read that bus service hours run between $100-175/hour, but varies widely from city to city, and I don't know Calgary's exact cost of service hour, but if it were at the bottom end of that range, that means running the 72/73 between UofC and Westbrook costs around $1 million/year, or if you use the top end, that section of bus routes costs $1.7M/year.

In other words, operating a gondola between Westbrook & UofC would, at best, cost the same as operating the 72/73, but could be more considering a number of factors (wages are higher here than in Portland, extra stations or different technology could affect op cost, etc). The benefit, is that it would provide more frequent service, save 3-4 minutes (much more on certain days) between Westbrook and UofC, save 17-18 minutes between Westbrook and Foothills, and 3-4 minutes between Foothills and UofC.

I could also speculate that there may be other immeasurable benefits, such as possibly attracting new riders with this technology, spurring redevelopment at Westbrook, rebranding the image of UofC and Calgary Transit, improving handicap accessibility to the Hospital, etc. However, the capital cost would be $100-200M - no small amount. For around the same price, I think you could build a transit/ped/bike only bridge between 29th St NW and Spruce Dr SW - in my opinion, this is preferable relative to a gondola.

[MalcolmTucker]

Don't forget as you add stations you up operating costs by a fair bit, assuming that the moving parts and attendants are the cost centre. I think four stations are likely the minimum plus a couple direction changes ( where it might not cost much more to build and run a station). Then you have privacy issues in Parkdale and urban design issues at the university (though the incentive of a good transit link to west campus before condos and other developments happen might outweigh potential difficulties there) and with AHS.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Doug

There are lots of tri cable gondolas and trams in extremely windy locations. The biggest challenge is that aerial tramways are very high maintenance. They have many moving parts that constantly wear. The operating costs are enormous.

Buses/Roads, Trains/Tracks are also pretty hefty on the maintenance. I wonder what the comparison would be.

[milomilo]

I can't imagine gondolas are more expensive than rail considering even many smaller ski hills run them.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

Portland's gondola cost $57M and has an annual operating cost of $1.7M. It travels around 35 km/hr. Depending on how Calgary decided to do it, I think a decent system over the Bow in our economy could be twice as much.
.

Is Portland's a gondola, or a tram? Difference being a gondola runs with a headway of about 30 seconds (see your average ski lift) and a tram is just two cars, one at each end, that then pass each other on the way (see the one in Jasper, and to get to the top of Grouse Mountain in Vancouver).

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Is Portland's a gondola, or a tram? Difference being a gondola runs with a headway of about 30 seconds (see your average ski lift) and a tram is just two cars, one at each end, that then pass each other on the way (see the one in Jasper, and to get to the top of Grouse Mountain in Vancouver).

Portland has a tram.

[MichaelS]

So would the operating costs be similar to a gondola? I imagine they wouldn't be that different, one guy in a station (and based on my experience with gondola's, we could probably get an Australian on his gap year to be the one operating it....).

[Wooster]

If connecting the West end of town to the hub in the NW is seen as important enough, given the topography we're dealing with, I can't see any other feasible or efficient way other than some sort of aerial tram or gondola system.

[milomilo]

Yeah, I would rather rail 'just because' but obviously building a bridge there wouldn't be easy, so this could be the best way. If it turns out to be well used and we did put in a river crossing somehow, parts of the gondola could probably be sold to a ski hill somewhere to recoup the cost.

[RyLucky]

The way I see it, here are the options:

No change
Capital: $0
Operating Cost: $1.5-2M/yr

Gondola
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.7-3.5M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 17-18 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 3-4 minutes

Ped/bike/bus bridge
Capital: $100-200M
Operating Cost: $1.5-2M/yr
Shortens trips between Westbrook-Foothills by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Westbrook-UofC by 3-4 minutes
Shortens trips between Foothills-UofC by 0 minutes
Also shortens trips between other destinations in the NW and SW that gondola wont, plus it benefits cyclists and pedestrians, and it may be upgradable to rail one day.

I think the Gondola has the best chance of spurring development at Westbrook, but it can only serve a limited number of terminals before it negatively affects service between others. My mind isn't made up on which way is the best way to go. I also do not yet have a clear picture of the costs/challenges of building a bridge out of Spruce Cliff.