VIA Rail

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

I've taken the train quite a few times over the years but I have never seen a Toronto-Winnipeg sleeping car fare for $350... I mean, I don't deny it's possible that there was a dead of winter seat sale at that price, but it would be extremely unusual, like finding a $499 airfare to Tokyo or some such.

I plugged in a random date in October and the one-way Toronto-Winnipeg bedroom for one (aka roomette) discount fare is $1,043 which includes some very tasty meals. That's more in line with what I'd expect. It's a pleasant experience but the high cost and long travel time has to limit its appeal.

The lowest one-way coach fare is $229, but sitting in an upright seat with no privacy for the 35 hour one way trip (assuming it's on time) can be a bit of an endurance test.

It is going back 5-6 years but there use to be a button on the Via website for "Web Saver" that had very deeply discounted fares in those ranges. Was never available in the normal search engine.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If only there was some kind of professional who works in VIA planning and occasionally frequents these forums that we could ask....

You mean someone who cannot even understand their own information? yeah... if only.....

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I honestly don't think it would be that difficult for VIA to absorb the passengers. And ridership isn't likely to fully rebound anyway before they start putting the Chargers into service. How much they can tighten up the schedule is another matter. That comes down to the freight networks.

If they arrive in time, then it may be possible. I wonder if they can keep the Renaissance cars a little while longer to absorb the uptick. One thing we aren't thinking of is after the pandemic is over, many people will want to travel, but may be leery of air travel. Amtrak is investing in more routes including international routes. Maybe Via should be doing the same.

Originally Posted by casper

The Canadian is an extremely long train. In Vancouver it cant fit in the station and they to split in half and back it into two different tracks. They could easily split the train in half and run it the frequently. They may need a few extra dinning cars etc.

That doesn't solve the issue of more people. However, it will mean that people can use the train as a transportation mode and less of a cruise mode.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Does anyone take the Canadian for utilitarian (transportation) needs? Anyone? (maybe a few that are afraid of flying). It is insanely slow, and much more expensive.

It is bad that the Northlander used to take 5 hours from North Bay to Toronto and Via from Sudbury to Toronto takes 8, and they are almost the same distance.

Originally Posted by milomilo

The ridership on the routes greyhound shut wasn't enough to justify buses. So they definitely won't justify trains, if the routes even overlap.

Greyhound is a for profit company. Via is not. Mind you, adding 1 or 2 ore trains on the Corridor may be all that is needed for the demand there. Out west, a daily would work, but there needs to be the will. I don't think there was much in the federal budget for it, so it may stay the same pre covid.

Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese

It didn't? Damn. It's been a while.

Yeah now that I'm looking at it the route to Sudbury is one of the proposals.

What proposal?

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by casper

It is going back 5-6 years but there use to be a button on the Via website for "Web Saver" that had very deeply discounted fares in those ranges. Was never available in the normal search engine.

Yeah, that's what I use. And I go for the cheaper berths. Of course, with covid, it doesn't look like they have those super discount tickets anymore.

I generally travelled in the late summer and winter, so not necessarily the highest of highs, granted. The Via Preference points program is also very generous, with fully 30¢ back on the dollar at the highest tier. Running the numbers, I remember being surprised how not-unreasonable the deal was compared to a flight. Of course, the calculation changes now that Flair is doing Ottawa-Winnipeg for as low as $50. But I think that a lot of people - for the right price and right schedule - could be convinced to pay a bit more and take a bit longer for a much more pleasant experience.

[le calmar]

So it turns out Via won’t have to worry about picking up those Greyhound passengers within the Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto corridor since Megabus already announced they were going to take over.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5428439.html

[begratto]

Originally Posted by le calmar

So it turns out Via won’t have to worry about picking up those Greyhound passengers within the Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto corridor since Megabus already announced they were going to take over.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5428439.html

And Orléans-Express Keolis is interested in the Montreal - Ottawa corridor. I received a survey from them earlier today asking me if I would be interested, how often I would use the service if they created it, etc.

[le calmar]

^ I am surprised Megabus didn’t grab the Mtl-Ott route as well. It is a consistently busy route from my experience.

[casper]

Originally Posted by le calmar

So it turns out Via won’t have to worry about picking up those Greyhound passengers within the Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto corridor since Megabus already announced they were going to take over.

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/ottawa...1_5428439.html

We are talking about 2-3 hour bus rides. That is reasonable. What VIA should be focused on is the longer national service and providing connectivity and inter-operability with regional bus and commuter rail service.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Does anyone take the Canadian for utilitarian (transportation) needs? Anyone? (maybe a few that are afraid of flying). It is insanely slow, and much more expensive.

Via suffers from the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" problem. The government in its ineptitude seems to be incapable of funding rail passenger service to make it work.

Via should scrap the Canadian as we know it because no train will ever run on time over that distance, it can never serve every spot at convent times, it will always have delays from freight trains and its routing serves the least densely part of the regions it passes through.

Soluition
1. Pass legislation to make railways give passenger trains priority with fines based on measurable metrics .
2. Replace the Canadian with a series of daily regional trains that would provide more convenient and reliable schedules.
3. Route the trains to serve the highest population possible.
4. When ever possible schedule trains to connect so that connections to the next regional train going east-west or vice versa is made on the same day.
5. Run some trains on routes that have less dense freight traffic because even if they have lower speed limits they are less likely to have delays which will result is reasonable journey times and improved reliability.
6. Pay for extra sidings where passenger trains usually meet freight trains.
7. If a remote service train and a regular passenger train service the same end point such as between Winnipeg and Toronto, make the remote service 2 or 3x per week ( via CN route) and the regular service 5x per week ( via CP route).
8. Restore the use of downtown stations in Sudbury, Saskatoon and Edmonton.
9. Trains should be much shorter since the there will be daily demand and not a potential pent up demand that may or may not occur.

This is the starter and it will attract increased ridership without losing ridership from tourists, Canadian or foreign.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Via suffers from the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" problem. The government in its ineptitude seems to be incapable of funding rail passenger service to make it work.

Via should scrap the Canadian as we know it because no train will ever run on time over that distance, it can never serve every spot at convent times, it will always have delays from freight trains and its routing serves the least densely part of the regions it passes through.

Soluition
1. Pass legislation to make railways give passenger trains priority with fines based on measurable metrics .
2. Replace the Canadian with a series of daily regional trains that would provide more convenient and reliable schedules.
3. Route the trains to serve the highest population possible.
4. When ever possible schedule trains to connect so that connections to the next regional train going east-west or vice versa is made on the same day.
5. Run some trains on routes that have less dense freight traffic because even if they have lower speed limits they are less likely to have delays which will result is reasonable journey times and improved reliability.
6. Pay for extra sidings where passenger trains usually meet freight trains.
7. If a remote service train and a regular passenger train service the same end point such as between Winnipeg and Toronto, make the remote service 2 or 3x per week ( via CN route) and the regular service 5x per week ( via CP route).
8. Restore the use of downtown stations in Sudbury, Saskatoon and Edmonton.
9. Trains should be much shorter since the there will be daily demand and not a potential pent up demand that may or may not occur.

This is the starter and it will attract increased ridership without losing ridership from tourists, Canadian or foreign.

Or just scrap the Canadian, replace any lost services with cheaper, faster, more frequent, more reliable buses where necessary (or don't), and spend the money saved where trains are actually useful. The economic value of the freight trains on the line will be vastly greater than the economic value of whatever work a handful of village dwellers too poor to own a car would be, and they'll be better served by buses anyway. If there is a reason to open up a huge legal fight with Canada's two most politically powerful companies, the Canadian is not it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Via suffers from the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" problem. The government in its ineptitude seems to be incapable of funding rail passenger service to make it work.

Via should scrap the Canadian as we know it because no train will ever run on time over that distance, it can never serve every spot at convent times, it will always have delays from freight trains and its routing serves the least densely part of the regions it passes through.

Soluition
1. Pass legislation to make railways give passenger trains priority with fines based on measurable metrics .
2. Replace the Canadian with a series of daily regional trains that would provide more convenient and reliable schedules.
3. Route the trains to serve the highest population possible.
4. When ever possible schedule trains to connect so that connections to the next regional train going east-west or vice versa is made on the same day.
5. Run some trains on routes that have less dense freight traffic because even if they have lower speed limits they are less likely to have delays which will result is reasonable journey times and improved reliability.
6. Pay for extra sidings where passenger trains usually meet freight trains.
7. If a remote service train and a regular passenger train service the same end point such as between Winnipeg and Toronto, make the remote service 2 or 3x per week ( via CN route) and the regular service 5x per week ( via CP route).
8. Restore the use of downtown stations in Sudbury, Saskatoon and Edmonton.
9. Trains should be much shorter since the there will be daily demand and not a potential pent up demand that may or may not occur.

This is the starter and it will attract increased ridership without losing ridership from tourists, Canadian or foreign.

The reality is that as great as this would be there would be great detractors of it. I'd love to see this all happen. If the Renaissance fleet was serviceable I'd think it would be possible. I'd have hope if Via announces new fleet for other services.

[casper]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Via suffers from the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" problem. The government in its ineptitude seems to be incapable of funding rail passenger service to make it work.

Via should scrap the Canadian as we know it because no train will ever run on time over that distance, it can never serve every spot at convent times, it will always have delays from freight trains and its routing serves the least densely part of the regions it passes through.

Soluition
1. Pass legislation to make railways give passenger trains priority with fines based on measurable metrics .
2. Replace the Canadian with a series of daily regional trains that would provide more convenient and reliable schedules.
3. Route the trains to serve the highest population possible.
4. When ever possible schedule trains to connect so that connections to the next regional train going east-west or vice versa is made on the same day.
5. Run some trains on routes that have less dense freight traffic because even if they have lower speed limits they are less likely to have delays which will result is reasonable journey times and improved reliability.
6. Pay for extra sidings where passenger trains usually meet freight trains.
7. If a remote service train and a regular passenger train service the same end point such as between Winnipeg and Toronto, make the remote service 2 or 3x per week ( via CN route) and the regular service 5x per week ( via CP route).
8. Restore the use of downtown stations in Sudbury, Saskatoon and Edmonton.
9. Trains should be much shorter since the there will be daily demand and not a potential pent up demand that may or may not occur.

This is the starter and it will attract increased ridership without losing ridership from tourists, Canadian or foreign.

I did the Canadian several years ago, and was talking to one of the conductors. Basically asking if we would arrive on time in Vancouver given we left Jasper several hours late due to a mechanical issue. He said that was an a problem. There is lots of slack in the schedule, Over the entire time this is over a day of slack so they hit the best mounts and waterfalls at the best lighting condition.

I would leave the Canadian alone, in Western Canada it follows the CN route through Saskatoon, Edmonton and Jasper.

Restart the CP route Banff, Calgary, Regina. It can leave a day later and still meet up with the Canadian that left the day earlier in Winnipeg before continuing to Ontario as one train. Maybe call it the Western Express.

Perhaps a second train on Toronto to Winnipeg for days not covered by the Canadian.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

I did the Canadian several years ago, and was talking to one of the conductors. Basically asking if we would arrive on time in Vancouver given we left Jasper several hours late due to a mechanical issue. He said that was an a problem. There is lots of slack in the schedule, Over the entire time this is over a day of slack so they hit the best mounts and waterfalls at the best lighting condition.

I would leave the Canadian alone, in Western Canada it follows the CN route through Saskatoon, Edmonton and Jasper.

Restart the CP route Banff, Calgary, Regina. It can leave a day later and still meet up with the Canadian that left the day earlier in Winnipeg before continuing to Ontario as one train. Maybe call it the Western Express.

Perhaps a second train on Toronto to Winnipeg for days not covered by the Canadian.

If I were going to do things - bring back the entire CP Canadian route. Give Thunder Bay service as well as Calgary and Regina. Have them run opposite days from the CN route.

[ShavedParmesanCheese]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If I were going to do things - bring back the entire CP Canadian route. Give Thunder Bay service as well as Calgary and Regina. Have them run opposite days from the CN route.

Not bad ideas, that's for sure. Get Thunder Bay on the network, same with the Soo, maybe they could do something about extending that line from Sudbury to White River. We need CP's transcontinental service back as well. Maybe they could do something about connecting Edmonton - Calgary and Saskatoon - Regina

[MonctonRad]

In the east I would make The Ocean a daily service, and make Toronto the western terminus rather than Montreal. Toronto is after all the hub of the the entire VIA system. For tourists, this means that if they want to see the entire country (Vancouver to Halifax), it would entail only a single transfer in Toronto.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In the east I would make The Ocean a daily service, and make Toronto the western terminus rather than Montreal. Toronto is after all the hub of the the entire VIA system. For tourists, this means that if they want to see the entire country (Vancouver to Halifax), it would entail only a single transfer in Toronto.

That would make sense... it would mean extending the trip by 5 or 6 hours, but it would make the train much more convenient and it would add another Toronto-Montreal frequency (or, I suppose, it could replace one if VIA can't afford to add another one). But either way it would improve connectivity.

I never understood why the Ocean (or before that the Atlantic) never went through to Toronto.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In the east I would make The Ocean a daily service, and make Toronto the western terminus rather than Montreal. Toronto is after all the hub of the the entire VIA system. For tourists, this means that if they want to see the entire country (Vancouver to Halifax), it would entail only a single transfer in Toronto.

Honestly, if they were to ever build a proper Corridor rail service (HSR or continuous HFR), I would rather have the Ocean terminate in Quebec City and add frequencies. They could easily make improvements that would allow for double daily (or better) Quebec City-Halifax.

We gotta get past these 18th century tourist services where the train is something you take for a leisurely tour. That will never make it an alternative to the plane or car or bus. And the Maritimes should easily be connectable by train.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

I never understood why the Ocean (or before that the Atlantic) never went through to Toronto.

Montreal has the maintenance facilities and personnel hub. And nearly a dozen trains a day that you can connect to, that will get you to Toronto.

Sending the Ocean to Toronto means taking up a precious Corridor train slot for a train that can't service most of the stations en route and would probably be too expensive for regular inter-city travelers. Might be different if VIA had its own track.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Montreal has the maintenance facilities and personnel hub. And nearly a dozen trains a day that you can connect to, that will get you to Toronto.

Sending the Ocean to Toronto means taking up a precious Corridor train slot for a train that can't service most of the stations en route and would probably be too expensive for regular inter-city travelers. Might be different if VIA had its own track.

Toronto has a maintenance centre (Mimico) and a crew base as well. There is no obvious reason why a Ocean consist consisting of Renaissance equipment couldn't replace an existing Toronto-Montreal train... I guess you would have to splice in a couple of coaches and a VIA 1 car in Montreal to provide a little extra capacity, but that type of adding or dropping cars en route is fairly routine and should not create any inordinately difficult logistical situations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess you would have to splice in a couple of coaches and a VIA 1 car in Montreal to provide a little extra capacity, but that type of adding or dropping cars en route is fairly routine and should not create any inordinately difficult logistical situations.

Again. Why bother when there's so many options to connect to in Montreal? And post HFR, those options actually get better.

That said, I am curious to see after HFR, whether they might do something like this. Since giving up a precious Lakeshore CN track slot is less of a concern.

[ssiguy]

The problem for VIA is not just the lack o funding they get but also where they are forced to spend it.

All those millions in operating expenses and rolling stock being used by non-Corridorr routes sucks the blood out of the only routes in the country that are even moderately financially sustainable. This is why you can go from Churchill to Price Rupert on VIA but not Edmonton to Calgary.