Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

to have a product to sell to the global market? isn't that what the current problem is? alberta has the oil but can't get it to market?

What has changed with their ability to get the product to market?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

he wants to see nuclear power in Alberta, how do you sell that power to China or Japan or whoever

Exactly. The only market for electricity is the US. Hydrogen however can be exported to all countries with no concerns about spillage as it there is an accident all that happens is that fresh water gets spilt into the ocean.

Also the biggest markets are in the developing world. India and China are sinking huge sums into hydrogen as they are more desperate to get off fossil fuels than anyone else due to their pollution levels. It is costing them billions every year in lost productivity and healthcare costs to say nothing of the people that are dying from it...……...the current situation in Delhi exemplifies this.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What has changed with their ability to get the product to market?

this whole wexit thing going on? the stuff coming out of Alberta cause we can't get our oil to market? Cause BC and Quebec won't build pipelines?

are you absent from Canada lately or something?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

this whole wexit thing going on? the stuff coming out of Alberta cause we can't get our oil to market? Cause BC and Quebec won't build pipelines?

are you absent from Canada lately or something?

No, just pointing out that nothing has changed with their ability to get oil to international markets since 10 years ago or whenever they had the last oil boom. It's not like we are actively dismantling existing pipelines.

[swimmer_spe]

Of all the provinces, Ontario is the only province that likely could go out on it's own. Between the agricultural, mining, forestry and manufacturing, we have everything that could help us support ourselves.

Sadly, most of the other provinces don't have the same economic base. For example, when the Cod stocks tanked, NL became a mess.

Complaining about it is not going to fix it. Just like the cod stocks causing an economic downturn, when the world turns away from oil, AB will have the same thing. A smart thing is to diversify their economy.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It'ss quite obvious we are heading into a recession

I've seen zero evidence of this, zero, zip, none. GDP growth remains high, unemployment is low, and the stock market continues to perform very well.

The media and investors are trying to sow the seeds of one because we haven't had one in 10 years and a LOT of people make money on shorting the market.

I don't think we're heading towards a recession, and even if we do get one in the next few years, it won't be anything like 2008.

It's all fear mongering, the economy will continue to function for several more years without a problem. They've been claiming this big recession was coming since trump was sworn into office, yet nothing is happening, the economy keeps booming.

[SpongeG]

we were discussing something other than oil for Alberta to sell. And someones response is the future is nuclear and I don't understand how that will replace oil as a marketable product to sell overseas.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Of all the provinces, Ontario is the only province that likely could go out on it's own. Between the agricultural, mining, forestry and manufacturing, we have everything that could help us support ourselves.

But Ontario has this mostly because it is a part of Canada. It's home of the national capital, most of the national oligopolies, and does not have good ocean access. It has comparatively few homegrown internationally competitive companies.

It's also a more politically powerful province so the federal government tends to intervene on its behalf. There are scenarios that would be awful for Ontario and would probably help Newfoundland (e.g. deregulation of finance, telecoms, and transportation; do Newfoundlanders care if they fly on Air Canada or Southwest? Do they like to pay some of the world's highest landing fees when they get routed through Pearson?) but those are not on the menu in Canada.

[misher]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Misher you are also forgetting that oil prices will decline over the next decade. It is already shocking how low oil prices are when you consider the current situation in one of the big boys on the oil block.........Venezuela. Venezuela has gone from a monstrous producer and exporter to nearly nothing in a few short years and yet oil prices are still suppressed. Eventually Maduro will get kicked out and the first thing a new government will do is ramp up production again to get some very badly needed foreign currency and investment.

Misher, you are exactly why I am pessimistic about Alberta's future. Whether you, Alberta, or I like it or not, oil is dying and nothing is going to change that. As I have stated MANY times consumption will be plateauing in about 3 years, begin a definately decline by 2030 and then begin a huge collapse by 2040 as new application, and technologies become common place and much cheaper. Just because yyou want oil to remain our defacto energy supply doesn't make it so.

Are you sure oil prices will go down over the next decade? The way I see it, OPEC and other small scale producers will start using up their easily accessible supply and have to spend more money getting it out or will run out entirely. Also given the Middle East's traditional instability who knows if they will be able to provide a regular stable supply. Also I see the use of oil in products increasing at least 50% over the next decade. Carbon fibre and other polymers are just too useful and once we are able to make it easier and cheaper it'll become more widespread. They are already studying carbon fibre as the next building material for construction.

The Magic of Carbon-Fiber Architecture
One of the most promising composites for the future of building is carbon fiber. A polymer comprising long, thin strands of carbon atoms bound together in a crystalline formation—each strand thinner than a human hair—it’s lighter than steel, five times stronger, and twice as stiff. As such, it’s particularly popular among manufacturers, who twist its strands together like yarn that can be woven into fabric or molded into permanent shapes. This process is used for everything from bike frames, fishing poles, and aircraft wings to race-car bodies, golf-club shafts, and sailboat masts.

“Carbon fiber and other composite materials are highly performative, meaning they have a very small weight but can take enormous loads,” says architect and recent BUILD Space resident Simon Kim, principal at Ibañez Kim, an architecture and design firm in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Because carbon fiber has such unique properties, Kim and others believe it makes an ideal building material. “Composites represent a very interesting opportunity for rapid fabrication and customization,” says Kim, adding that it would take just weeks to build the enclosure for a small house out of carbon fiber, versus months with conventional materials. “Composite structures can be erected rather quickly and do not require much in terms of specialized labor and work flows—from general contractors and subcontractors, to material supplies, for example. We can therefore go faster, the delivery chain is shorter, the amount of material is reduced, and it’s less expensive.”

Thanks to its flexibility and light weight, carbon fiber can be easily moved. “Modules can be picked up, taken elsewhere, and chained together to produce larger assemblies as needed,” he says. “That makes composite structures far more flexible than traditional buildings, where there’s an assumption of permanence that is not always a good thing.”

https://www.autodesk.com/redshift/carbon-fiber-building/

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

But Ontario has this mostly because it is a part of Canada. It's home of the national capital, most of the national oligopolies, and does not have good ocean access.

Ontario would be a fully landlocked country. The strait between Northern Quebec and Baffin Island isn't international waters. Nor is any possible Northwestern Passage.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Of all the provinces, Ontario is the only province that likely could go out on it's own. Between the agricultural, mining, forestry and manufacturing, we have everything that could help us support ourselves.

Sadly, most of the other provinces don't have the same economic base. For example, when the Cod stocks tanked, NL became a mess.

Complaining about it is not going to fix it. Just like the cod stocks causing an economic downturn, when the world turns away from oil, AB will have the same thing. A smart thing is to diversify their economy.

I dunno.

Fiscally, the federal government certainly does take a lot of money out of Ontario and give it to the others; this source from Statscan (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/...embers%5B0%5D=1.7&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.2) says that the federal government takes $20B a year out of Ontario (ie. federal revenue from Ontario sources is $20B higher than federal spending in Ontario).

But on the other hand a lot of Ontario's wealth comes from being part of Canada in the first place. Ontario is the centre of business in Canada, where the banks, corporate offices, financial firms, etc. that serve the entire country are HQ'ed, generating a huge number of jobs here.

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by lio45

Ontario would be a fully landlocked country. The strait between Northern Quebec and Baffin Island isn't international waters. Nor is any possible Northwestern Passage.

The St. Lawrence Seaway is an international waterway, so Ontario does have ocean access.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Ontario would be a fully landlocked country. The strait between Northern Quebec and Baffin Island isn't international waters. Nor is any possible Northwestern Passage.

That's the Canadian view. I doubt it would be shared by an independent Ontario. Not that it matters.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I dunno.

Fiscally, the federal government certainly does take a lot of money out of Ontario and give it to the others; this source from Statscan (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/...embers%5B0%5D=1.7&pickMembers%5B1%5D=2.2) says that the federal government takes $20B a year out of Ontario (ie. federal revenue from Ontario sources is $20B higher than federal spending in Ontario).

But on the other hand a lot of Ontario's wealth comes from being part of Canada in the first place. Ontario is the centre of business in Canada, where the banks, corporate offices, financial firms, etc. that serve the entire country are HQ'ed, generating a huge number of jobs here.

And a lot of them moved from MTL too because of separatist issues back then. So, if we’re to repeat that... I think that’s gonna screw everyone over because they will just move out of Canada altogether (unless they go to Vancouver).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The St. Lawrence Seaway is an international waterway, so Ontario does have ocean access.

I'm not that sure.

From a quick wikipedia search:
"The section of the river from Montreal to the Atlantic is under Canadian jurisdiction, regulated by the offices of Transport Canada in the Port of Quebec."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence_Seaway

This section of the river would be 100% internal waters of Canada-sans-Ontario. Just because we let Americans through doesn't mean it's "international" waters.

It's like saying Luxembourg isn't landlocked because one can anytime navigate the Moselle and Rhine rivers to the ocean through friendly Germany and Netherlands.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not that it matters.

Agreed. Ontario is certainly not leaving Canada. Entertaining the idea is like trying to balance (the reality of) Basque, Breton and Corsican separatists with the concept of Greater Paris / Île-de-France somehow deciding to secede from France.

Ontario is Canada.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by someone123

But Ontario has this mostly because it is a part of Canada. It's home of the national capital, most of the national oligopolies, and does not have good ocean access.

While Ontario benefits from being in Canada, to say that its success is mostly because of that is an exaggeration at best. Ontario was the biggest province for decades before there even was a Canada. It's been the same story for 200 years, with or without a federal government.

Originally Posted by someone123

It has comparatively few homegrown internationally competitive companies.

Canada has 13 companies in the Fortune Global 500. 9 of them are in Ontario, with two in Quebec and two in Alberta. Ontario dominates Canadian internationally competitive companies.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

Agreed. Ontario is certainly not leaving Canada. Entertaining the idea is like trying to balance (the reality of) Basque, Breton and Corsican separatists with the concept of Greater Paris / Île-de-France somehow deciding to secede from France.

Ontario is Canada.

More importantly, Ontarians don't feel much loyalty to their province above Canada. Without a doubt, we feel ourselves as Canadians first who happen to live in Ontario.

It's like England trying to separate from the UK - the things aren't completely synonymous, but they're not far off it.

[flar]

I grew up on the St. Clair River, watching the ships go by. The vast majority are lakers, there are a few "salties"

I think most of the ocean vessels stop at Montreal, the big ones can't fit through the canals and locks beyond.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Canada has 13 companies in the Fortune Global 500. 9 of them are in Ontario, with two in Quebec and two in Alberta. Ontario dominates Canadian internationally competitive companies.

How do the true multinationals measure up against the national oligopolies like the big banks, telecommunication companies, etc.? I didn't mean that Ontario has less of these than other provinces, I meant that a significant proportion of Ontario companies are geared toward serving protected national industries.

There isn't much of a geographical reason why people in British Columbia or Quebec should rely so heavily on Ontarian businesses. Or why Toronto would be a central transportation and logistics hub for the top half of North America. If Ontario were no different from the US, and just another foreign country, I don't think the economy would work that way. Ontario's economy would no doubt adjust but I am not sure why it would do a lot better than, say, Michigan, Ohio, or Illinois.