Winnipeg Retail

[esquire]

Originally Posted by horrorbro123

Well Looks Like Target is Leaving Manitoba For Good Which Means Zellers Is Making Comeback?

Interesting point... someone in the Canada Retail Thread mentioned that this would be an opportune time for HBC to bring back Zellers given that there will now be a lot of newly renovated stores that are functionally equivalent to Zellers, and a lot of desperate landlords ready to make deals on them. Maybe there is something to this? A scaled down discount department store chain without the loser locations that bogged Zellers down just might work.

Originally Posted by horrorbro123

Or Maybe Something Else Could Be Nordstrom Rack Will Replace Target in Grant Park

Possible, but it does seem that Grant Park is turning into more of a neighbourhood retail hub... I would think Nordstrom would rather be at one of the regional retail hubs.

[Simplicity]

This is almost becoming obnoxious at this point. Shindico is now going to try and put 50 retailers - new to mark retailers!- in an outlet mall complex on the old stadium site. Uh huh. And it's designed to compete with the Harvard Development outlet mall in Seasons.

A few things as I see it:

1) There isn't nearly the retail demand to sustain another 500,000+ square footage of nondescript boxes designed to house 150 new to market retailers. Half of them will be out of business within a year and all that empty space will drive down the value of all the rest.

2) We're now just proposing development for the sake of development. It's bad. It cannibalizes existing demand leaving long-term vacancies and derelict buildings, it puts local retailers out of business, and it centralizes retail in one spot.

3) This isn't free-market business. This site was steered to Shindico during that last administration and they didn't bother to caveat any of the development. The infrastructure for the area is already woefully and dangerously under-serviced and it can't handle the traffic that comes along with this sort of development. On the other hand, the city is already into Sterling Lyon and Kenaston for untold millions and they need development to pay for the improvements. Knee-cap the development around Polo Park and drive it towards the existing Harvard site. Or, demand Shindico make massive infrastructure improvements in the St. James area completely at their own expense.

Link: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...288649021.html

[trebor204]

Originally Posted by trebor204

Heads Up:

Details in Thursday's Paper
https://twitter.com/PaulSamyn/status...117504/photo/1


A new outlet mall is coming to Polo Park. (The only spot I can think of the area around Target)

Their is also an outlet mall just North of IKEA at Seasons of Tuxedo

Story was posted before the news regarding Target.

New fashion outlet with 50 stores coming to the 'Former' Target store at Polo park.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...288649021.html

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting point... someone in the Canada Retail Thread mentioned that this would be an opportune time for HBC to bring back Zellers given that there will now be a lot of newly renovated stores that are functionally equivalent to Zellers, and a lot of desperate landlords ready to make deals on them. Maybe there is something to this? A scaled down discount department store chain without the loser locations that bogged Zellers down just might work.



Possible, but it does seem that Grant Park is turning into more of a neighbourhood retail hub... I would think Nordstrom would rather be at one of the regional retail hubs.

Yeah, even with the updated mall aesthetics, Nordstrom isn't joining the Grant Park Garage Sale. Not a chance.

The Zellers concept is a much better fit, but I doubt HBC has any interest in moving back down market. Especially given how competitive the sector is. They've been undergoing a huge restructure over the past couple of years trying to lean themselves out. It's doubtful adding some low-margin bloat is in the plan...

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by trebor204

Story was posted before the news regarding Target.

New fashion outlet with 50 stores coming to the 'Former' Target store at Polo park.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...288649021.html

Your story only had a link to Paul Samyn's Twitter account and a graphic of the front page. I was just adding the link and some context...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

This is almost becoming obnoxious at this point. Shindico is now going to try and put 50 retailers - new to mark retailers!- in an outlet mall complex on the old stadium site. Uh huh. And it's designed to compete with the Harvard Development outlet mall in Seasons.

It's as if there been a sudden realization that Winnipeg can support at most one outlet mall and now there is a race to be the first one to get something built.

Originally Posted by Simplicity

A few things as I see it:

1) There isn't nearly the retail demand to sustain another 500,000+ square footage of nondescript boxes designed to house 150 new to market retailers. Half of them will be out of business within a year and all that empty space will drive down the value of all the rest.

2) We're now just proposing development for the sake of development. It's bad. It cannibalizes existing demand leaving long-term vacancies and derelict buildings, it puts local retailers out of business, and it centralizes retail in one spot.

3) This isn't free-market business. This site was steered to Shindico during that last administration and they didn't bother to caveat any of the development. The infrastructure for the area is already woefully and dangerously under-serviced and it can't handle the traffic that comes along with this sort of development. On the other hand, the city is already into Sterling Lyon and Kenaston for untold millions and they need development to pay for the improvements. Knee-cap the development around Polo Park and drive it towards the existing Harvard site. Or, demand Shindico make massive infrastructure improvements in the St. James area completely at their own expense.

Link: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...288649021.html

To point 2, I'd say that this has been the way things have worked in the city for the past 30 years. Yeah retail spending has increased since the 80s, but not nearly enough to justify all the new retail construction. In the 70s and 80s it was malls taking away business from downtown, in the 90s and 00s it was big boxes taking away business from malls. Just more of the same.

To point 3, I don't know how you could, in all fairness, put Shindico on the hook for infrastructure improvements when they are bit players in terms of driving traffic to the area? How much does CF pay on top of property taxes to improve infrastructure? They are probably more responsible for drawing people to the Polo Park area than anyone else.

For what it's worth, I think I'd prefer a somewhat compact Shindico outlet mall with underground parking at Polo Park than some sprawling, hulking beast out on Kenaston. At least it would bolster a well-established shopping area and use existing infrastructure.

[horrorbro123]

Walmart Supercentre Is Set Open at Grant Park Pavilions On January 29th

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's as if there been a sudden realization that Winnipeg can support at most one outlet mall and now there is a race to be the first one to get something built.



To point 2, I'd say that this has been the way things have worked in the city for the past 30 years. Yeah retail spending has increased since the 80s, but not nearly enough to justify all the new retail construction. In the 70s and 80s it was malls taking away business from downtown, in the 90s and 00s it was big boxes taking away business from malls. Just more of the same.

To point 3, I don't know how you could, in all fairness, put Shindico on the hook for infrastructure improvements when they are bit players in terms of driving traffic to the area? How much does CF pay on top of property taxes to improve infrastructure? They are probably more responsible for drawing people to the Polo Park area than anyone else.

For what it's worth, I think I'd prefer a somewhat compact Shindico outlet mall with underground parking at Polo Park than some sprawling, hulking beast out on Kenaston. At least it would bolster a well-established shopping area and use existing infrastructure.

The way servicing agreements work, you can only apply their usage when somebody is looking for something from the city. So, unfortunately, you can't retroactively go back to a developer and make a claim that their development is bringing more people than originally anticipated so here's a bill for improvements. What happens in every case is that there is an infrastructure capacity that exists and the development that breaks the barrier is on the hook for the improvements. The city didn't plan everywhere at max density, unfortunately. Polo Park beat everybody to the neighbourhood. If Shindico wants to take a site that was heretofore used on ten nights a year and turn it into an outlet mall, here's an opportunity to properly assign costs to those who are causing them.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trebor204

A new outlet mall is coming to Polo Park. (The only spot I can think of the area around Target)

Their is also an outlet mall just North of IKEA at Seasons of Tuxedo

That would be the third outlet mall confirmed for Winnipeg and possibly the fourth. Assiniboine Downs is supposed to have an outlet mall built behind it as part of the restricting plans. Tanger, who runs many outlet malls throughout Canada and the USA also announced plans for the Winnipeg market but has yet to publically confirm a specific location.

The other notable piece here is that Cadillac Fairview is just starting to talk to retailers about the Polo Park location while the developer of the Seasons mall already had those conversations as part of their plan to build outlet malls across Canada. Does anyone really think Winnipeg can support four outlet malls when we struggle to have three regular malls?

In terms of the Target pull-out Marshalls/Winners/Home Sense could be a major player in repurposing those spaces. Grant Park will be challenging as it doesn't seem like national retailers needing medium to large amounts of space will want to locate there. The Kenaston/Grant Park area is currently lacking a Winners store so giving favourable lease terms they could consider the location.

Southdale is in a similar position, companies that are interested in that market are trying to land space closer to St Vital. The mall has basically built itself up as more a neighbourhood hub. It could fit into the discount retailer plan like Grant Park or could split the space into smaller units. It is notable this is the last of the old K-Mart locations to be repurposed or demolished.

Kildonan Place presents a great level of opportunity for retailers willing to take a chance. The distance from Polo Park and St Vital open up the possibilities further. It is possible a fast fashion retailer like Forever 21 might be interested in some or all of the space. Relocating the food court or the movie theather to the Target space would also seem the be possibilities here. This is likely the most urgent of the four locations as the other anchor Sears is in a similarly poor position and could announce their own closure soon. It is notable this was at one time a Bay location suggesting higher end retailers will not be in this discussion.

Polo Park, Winnipeg's shining new, purpose built Target store. The challenges here will be very large as the structure of the space over parking makes it difficult to split into smaller units. It is also the largest of the four stores. A representative from Shindico was on CJOB this morning talking about how they have some new to Winnipeg retailers they will be approaching about the space. In terms of who might take over the space, I wonder if Simons who was announced for that location when it was The Elms is on the short list. Bass Pro Shop would seem to be another highly likely candidate.

[esquire]

Outlet malls for everyone! Good grief.

Simplicity, you think that the Shindico outlet mall will be so busy that it will strain the streets at Polo Park beyond what they will be able to handle after the current round of improvements? A 50-retailer complex doesn't sound like something that will really have a major impact... despite what Shindico is selling, this is sounding more like a Kenaston and McGillivray kind of strip mall than a big-time Tanger or Simon outlet mall destination.

[CoryB]

I really think of the three proposed outlet malls the Shindico property is the longest shot. There is also questions on if the Assiniboine Downs property might not also be the Tanger location.

One other fallout from the Target closure is that could be a huge setback for Westport Festival and might completely kill the development.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

One other fallout from the Target closure is that could be a huge setback for Westport Festival and might completely kill the development.

[bomberjet]

In terms of Kildonan Place. The mall was recently sold, which brings some fresh air into the possibility of development or expansion. Not sure what the track record is for the new owner in terms of new purchases and their expansion/renovations.

But it would seem they need to take a minute and think about the overall mall itself. Is an expansion or major reconfiguration feasible? Like the relocation of the decrepit movie theatre (which seems very expensive). What is the future of the current mall looking like. Are retailers (existing or new to Winnipeg) wanting space in the mall. Or is it always going to be a lower level of service than St. Vital for example.

If the mall were to undergo a major expansion, as in addition of another corridor or loop corridor, will the mall itself be at risk of financial collapse. IMO, KP needs to become similar to St. Vital. I would only assume that the owners would be allover this if it was feasible.

[horrorbro123]

Maybe Value Village Will Replace Target In Grant Park I'm Pretty Sure

[Simplicity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Outlet malls for everyone! Good grief.

Simplicity, you think that the Shindico outlet mall will be so busy that it will strain the streets at Polo Park beyond what they will be able to handle after the current round of improvements? A 50-retailer complex doesn't sound like something that will really have a major impact... despite what Shindico is selling, this is sounding more like a Kenaston and McGillivray kind of strip mall than a big-time Tanger or Simon outlet mall destination.

I think if what you're saying turns out to be the case, there's probably not much to worry about. I also think that's probably likely. My comments were more directed at the possibility that a fifty-store outlet goes in, which, I think is very unlikely. My point was really that should somebody stuff that many stores on that space, and they all succeeded, you'd see a massive spike in traffic on two routes - St. James & Empress - that really have no further capacity. And that says nothing of Maroons Rd.

[Simplicity]

I always love CoryB's contributions on the retail side of things. Learn lots from them...

It's funny because I was thinking about a Marshall's going in there earlier this morning. And I have no idea as to the feasibility of it given I don't know their ideal footprint, but might the GP location be considered too large for something like that? I think it cross-concept of maybe HomeSense and Marshall's could do really well, but it seems that the Marshall's/Winners/HomeSense stores require less space.

Any thoughts?

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Simplicity

I always love CoryB's contributions on the retail side of things. Learn lots from them...

It's funny because I was thinking about a Marshall's going in there earlier this morning. And I have no idea as to the feasibility of it given I don't know their ideal footprint, but might the GP location be considered too large for something like that? I think it cross-concept of maybe HomeSense and Marshall's could do really well, but it seems that the Marshall's/Winners/HomeSense stores require less space.

Any thoughts?

There are definitely larger format TJ Maxx (US brand of the chain) and HomeGoods (aka HomeSense). The location I have seen effectively looks like two separate stores however the dividing wall between the spaces has some pass through points and they share a common set of tills.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by horrorbro123

Maybe London Drugs Will Replace Target In Grant Park?

Surprised London Drugs hasn't opened more stores in Winnipeg. Two stores in both Regina and Saskatoon with both having about a quarter of the population of Winnipeg.

[horrorbro123]

Maybe Value Village Will Replace Target In Grant Park

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

There are definitely larger format TJ Maxx (US brand of the chain) and HomeGoods (aka HomeSense). The location I have seen effectively looks like two separate stores however the dividing wall between the spaces has some pass through points and they share a common set of tills.

Toys R Us/Babies R Us does exactly this.

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Surprised London Drugs hasn't opened more stores in Winnipeg. Two stores in both Regina and Saskatoon with both having about a quarter of the population of Winnipeg.

It's funny that they went to the trouble of opening just one, but never went beyond that. You'd think there would be some economies of scale by opening more. It would seem to be a natural fit for new shopping areas like Kenaston/McGillivray...

Originally Posted by horrorbro123

Maybe Value Village Will Replace Target In Grant Park

Maybe if all else fails...