LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[lrt's friend]

There is a major flaw with the Confederation Line. There is a lack of Park n Ride lots that will allow the majority in the suburbs to easily access an arena at Lebreton Flats.

I also really question the capacity of the O-Train to service major events in an efficient manner. You cannot add trains and you cannot connect trains together without another major reconstruction (and shutdown) of the O-Train corridor.

Being able to access an arena at Lebreton Flats by transit from the suburbs is crucial to the success of that endeavour.

What has made transit so successful at Lansdowne Park has been the direct connection between Lansdowne and suburban Park n Ride lots. Without that convenience, we are replacing a Kanata traffic problem with a downtown traffic problem.

I see potential problems with the Lansdowne project in that we are not making it easier to access it outside of major events. There is already been articles and complaints written in the paper about the parking arrangement around Lansdowne and this will quickly defeat the overall success of the project if good transportation alternatives are not offered. This will also apply to Lebreton Flats. Rapid transit to Bayshore and Baseline is simply not good enough with no legal parking opportunities at Bayshore and very limited parking available at Baseline station. Required bus transfers will substantially cut the amount of people choosing transit.

[1overcosc]

Then explain why people in Toronto and Montreal have zero quams about taking the subway/metro to another subway/metro to a bus when getting home from events at downtown arenas. You're constant hatred of transfers is getting tiring, transfers are healthy and normal, and the ones that we're planning at the LRT termini are going to be quite painless especially if the intended destination is a major park and ride as the wait time will be very minimal. This city needs to get over its fear of transfers, it's not realistic or feasible to keep offering people direct rides everywhere.

As for the Trillium Line, it can be double tracked when they time comes without having to shut it down. It could have been kept running all through the current expansion with no summer shutdown, but the city opted to do it the cheaper way and shut it all down. Toronto has proven that it's possible to do massive renos of railway routes while keeping them running. Heck, to build the UPX, they literally took tracks that is currently at grade and moved them into a trench, all while keeping service running at all times. The exception to this is signalling, when signalling replacement is done service has to be shutdown, but the new signalling system the city has installed on the Trillium Line can easily scale up without needing replacement.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sad how the City jumped aboard a plan to fully finance the stadium (and basically gave away land for condos, retail and offices) for a third re-incarnation of a CFL team and an unproven NASL franchise while it won't pony up any kind of support to move our long standing NHL team downtown. Not surprising though, considering the City stood behind Rideau Carleton, a disposable business IMO, for the casino shafting our NHL team once more.

Plus, it seems the City might not support the move to save a few restaurants in Kanata.

I just don't get it, why City Hall seems to think everything is more important than the NHL.

Without re-hashing the debate about whether the Lansdowne land was given away or not, it is worth noting that financial contribution for an NHL arena would be much higher than the City's contribution to Lansdowne.

As for the comments about Kanata restaurants, I would take that as politicking and nothing more. There is no way that the City bases this decision on the fate of a few parking lot chain restaurants. Hell, you could probably take an allan key and dismantle them, then re-assemble them on the Flats if you wanted to.

I do agree with you though. The Sens are by far the most important sports organization in this town from an economic and development standpoint, and the City seems unwilling to do anything that looks like they are getting too cozy with them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

As for the comments about Kanata restaurants, I would take that as politicking and nothing more. There is no way that the City bases this decision on the fate of a few parking lot chain restaurants. Hell, you could probably take an allan key and dismantle them, then re-assemble them on the Flats if you wanted to.

No way in a normal city, but this is the city that may determine the location of bus routes based on the keeping the pass through traffic in the Rideau Centre.

Frankly I would think a lot of Kanata commuters would prefer a downtown team so they don't have to sit in gridlocked traffic 40+ nights a year.

[agl]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is a major flaw with the Confederation Line. There is a lack of Park n Ride lots that will allow the majority in the suburbs to easily access an arena at Lebreton Flats.

Ample opportunity to create park and ride lots in places where parking demand is lower during game times, ie. shopping malls and office parking.

Potential park and ride lots directly on Confed. or O-train line that could serve Lebreton Flats in the urban area on game nights: Tunney's Pasture, Carleton University (as it currently serves Lansdowne), Canada Post at Confederation Heights.

Outside downtown: several shopping malls (Bayshore, Lincoln Fields, South Keys, St-Laurent, Gloucester Centre)

If the dwell time is minimal, people will still use the usual park and ride lots and transfer from bus to train, just as they do as in larger cities where a transfer is required.

Adding rail or bus line on the Prince of Wales bridge provides office parking near the casino, Guertin arena (on non-competing game nights), uQO, and any of the park and rides on the Rapibus line.

You could also add any downtown office parking that is three blocks from a station. Have an arrangement between the lot and OC Transpo: parking fee also provides for a short hop ride on the LRT to Lebreton or Bayview.

Or, Sens work with OC Transpo to include transit in all ticket prices.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Then explain why people in Toronto and Montreal have zero quams about taking the subway/metro to another subway/metro to a bus when getting home from events at downtown arenas. You're constant hatred of transfers is getting tiring, transfers are healthy and normal, and the ones that we're planning at the LRT termini are going to be quite painless especially if the intended destination is a major park and ride as the wait time will be very minimal. This city needs to get over its fear of transfers, it's not realistic or feasible to keep offering people direct rides everywhere.

Because in Toronto or Montreal, there are park n' ride lots directly on the subway lines, and, for those who would have multiple transfers, they have the option to drive to the venue, because there is sufficient and available parking in the area of the arena. Neither of those elements exist in Ottawa with the LeBreton location.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of LeBreton as the home of NHL hockey, but it's wrong to think that because it's adjacent to rapid transit line(s) that there are no transportation or access issues.

[c_speed3108]

Really I don't think we can make a ton of assumptions about an arena there in terms of setup, how much parking, streetscape, what else the complex will have, etc.. as there is currently no design. Even the musium there has a parking garage.

[lrt's friend]

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of moving the arena to Lebreton Flats, but we need to look at this from all angles, and I am saying the LRT plan is not as supportive of the hockey fan market as most people think. Even with the completion of Phase 2 of the Confederation Line, there is only one significant Park n Ride lot at Place d'Orleans.

People cannot park in shopping centre parking lots. You will get towed. There are warning signs to that affect. The other lots mostly depend on the limitations of the O-Train. As I said, even doubling trains requires another reconstruct, and we have seen how long that takes, let alone double tracking which will shut down the line for another year or two. None of that is even part of Phase 2.

We also need to get past the anti-suburban bias. The suburbs is where the bulk of Ottawa Senators fans live. If we move the arena to Lebreton Flats, we need make sure that the fans can get there in an efficient manner or they won't buy tickets.

Let me tell you that the success of the Lansdowne transit plan is about direct service. People will NOT transfer at 10 pm. I am a football season ticket holder. I live in the inner suburbs and I used transit to every game this season. The only reason why I did that amongst thousands of other fans is because the service is direct. If I have to transfer, I will drive. No ifs ands or buts. I won't apologize for that. My time is important especially when I have to work the next day. There was very little direct transit service in the old days to football games and very few football fans took transit. Direct service is the key to get buy in.

This is not Toronto or Montreal or New York where millions of people have access to a downtown arena by subway. You can bet that very few people travel to the ACC from Mississauga or Oshawa. The large size of the market allows that. Ottawa's market needs to attract fans from every part of the city.

I am sorry but I say it as I see it. I can easily take the O-Train to a game at Lebreton but I am not going to wait an hour to get on a train.

Again, I like the idea of moving the arena downtown but our transit planning needs significant improvement over the current plans to support it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

People cannot park in shopping centre parking lots. You will get towed. There are warning signs to that affect.

The city can sign deals with malls and other places that have parking to allow their temporary use as park and rides for events. This is what the city has done with Lansdowne for Canada Post and Carleton University, and they do for Canada Day with practically every mall in the city.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The other lots mostly depend on the limitations of the O-Train. As I said, even doubling trains requires another reconstruct, and we have seen how long that takes, let alone double tracking which will shut down the line for another year or two. None of that is even part of Phase 2.

What's with your continued obsessive belief that double tracking will require a long shutdown? It won't. Again, in Toronto they've work on train lines far more extensive than simply adding another track (and yes, way more extensive than widening trenches and bridges and tunnels) with nothing more serious than the odd weekend shutdown and reduced speeds at times. Ottawa has chosen to shut down the O-Train during work because currently O-Train ridership falls so low during the summer that it's easy to do summer shutdowns (a full shutdown is cheaper than working around an active line). But the in future when ridership goes up with all the Carling station condos and the Bowesville extension, that will change and the city will start working around the line.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We also need to get past the anti-suburban bias. The suburbs is where the bulk of Ottawa Senators fans live. If we move the arena to Lebreton Flats, we need make sure that the fans can get there in an efficient manner or they won't buy tickets.

Let me tell you that the success of the Lansdowne transit plan is about direct service. People will NOT transfer at 10 pm. I am a football season ticket holder. I live in the inner suburbs and I used transit to every game this season. The only reason why I did that amongst thousands of other fans is because the service is direct. If I have to transfer, I will drive. No ifs ands or buts. I won't apologize for that. My time is important especially when I have to work the next day. There was very little direct transit service in the old days to football games and very few football fans took transit. Direct service is the key to get buy in.

I don't see how directness is an issue. And what does after 10pm have to do with anything? Nobody gives a shit about transfers if they're fast, efficient, sheltered, and waiting times are minimal. That's proven in a billion ways a billion times. The transfers at the LRT termini are sheltered, efficient, and you can bet that they'll have high frequencies even late at night for game nights. The Confederation Line itself will probably do its max frequency, which is 2 minutes, on game nights. Walk to the station, wait 2 minutes for a train, take the train to the end of the line, go up an escalator, wait 2 minutes for a bus. Sorry, but most people don't give a flying fuck about that. Your obsession with direct service is just plain stupid. Every single study that has been done on this shows that transfers between high frequency routes is no penalty. In fact, research shows that a route that has higher frequencies but more transfers will be more popular than a direct route with lower frequency (ie. if travelling from downtown to Carling, taking a 5 minute frequency bus down Bank with a transfer to another 5 minute frequency route at Catherine would attract more riders than a direct route at 15 minute frequency). A transfer between the 2-minute frequency Confederation Line and a 5-minute frequency 95 or 97 bus or whatever will be way more popular than a direct shuttle that you have to wait 15 minutes for.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is not Toronto or Montreal or New York where millions of people have access to a downtown arena by subway. You can bet that very few people travel to the ACC from Mississauga or Oshawa. The large size of the market allows that. Ottawa's market needs to attract fans from every part of the city.

There's people from all over the GTA who go to sports games downtown. In Toronto, the vast majority of trips require multiple transfers, but nobody gives a shit because frequencies are high. On game nights, you can bet your right arm the city will be maximizing frequency on the LRT and on the bus routes that connect them to suburban park and rides.

[MountainView]

Just a quick bit on how people would get to this location (bus, car, train, etc). How many people do you know now that go to Sens games and go directly to the game? 90%+? How many go to a bar before the game (At Centrum for example)? Not many. BUT if the arena was at Lebreton people could walk to a restaurant after work and have a bite and a beer then go to the game. People would also head to the game earlier (via transit) to stop at a local pub/bar/resto and have something pre-game. This way we would not have 19,000 people heading there at the same time. But would be staggered. As someone who goes to 10+ games a year, mostly all via the 400 buses, I would totally be down to go to a bar pregame. I often take the 96 to the Chek Point bar at CTC before the game now, and before the 400s run. OR I will 96 to Centrum, go to a chain restaurant, enjoy a pint or two, then 400 to the CTC. So what I am saying is that if this was an 'entertainment district' it will be more efficient then we think at getting people to the game. Even after people would stop in again and have food/drinks post-game.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

People cannot park in shopping centre parking lots. You will get towed. There are warning signs to that affect..

On the subject of Park&Rides...

I don't understand why we don't have a
> better/workable/why aren't they doing it
P3 model for park&rides? The confederation line is a P3 arrangement. Parking can be a huge cash cow. There's gotta be a way for win/win here, between public and private gain, to buildout more infrastructure. Park&rides could be a anchor to shopping centres, would they not be? Think Billings Bridge/Bayshore ect. Carleton and other institutions could also gain from the same kind of deals. We're already making them at basically a smaller scale- less dense- level with transit connections to Lansdowne events.

[eternallyme]

Curious about traffic and transit, how does Winnipeg manage it? Since they don't have any kind of rail transit AND a downtown arena.

[Horus]

I agree with lrt's friend. There are issues. It's not to say that it makes LeBreton a worse location than Kanata, but it's not perfect, at least in the absence of other improvements

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The city can sign deals with malls and other places that have parking to allow their temporary use as park and rides for events. This is what the city has done with Lansdowne for Canada Post and Carleton University, and they do for Canada Day with practically every mall in the city.

That works with Lansdowne because the events are typically on evenings and/or weekends in the summer and those parking locations are relatively close to TD Place, making shuttle bus transfers feasible. Canada Post is dead quiet after 5pm. Carleton is not that busy in the summer. All the malls are closed on Canada Day. That's why those locations work.

The Senators often play games on Saturday or Sunday afternoons. Think a major mall is going to let hockey fans plug up their parking lot on a weekend in December? Not likely. Even on weeknights, to make a 7pm faceoff, you'd have people starting to park at the mall at 5pm which is still well within the mall's business hours. There is also no comparable to Carleton or Canada Post within range of LeBreton to try and duplicate something like the shuttle bus program Lansdowne runs.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I don't see how directness is an issue. And what does after 10pm have to do with anything? Nobody gives a shit about transfers if they're fast, efficient, sheltered, and waiting times are minimal. That's proven in a billion ways a billion times. The transfers at the LRT termini are sheltered, efficient, and you can bet that they'll have high frequencies even late at night for game nights. The Confederation Line itself will probably do its max frequency, which is 2 minutes, on game nights. Walk to the station, wait 2 minutes for a train, take the train to the end of the line, go up an escalator, wait 2 minutes for a bus.

That's true, if you are transferring from an LRT stop to a bus line, or vice versa. But what if you're transferring from bus to bus? Or bus to bus to bus?
Doesn't the route frequency drop in the evening? So by 10pm and beyond, you could be waiting longer, at a cold, dark (windy/snowy) bus stop on the side of a dark street for how long? Multiple transfers aren't as bad when the weather is good, but during hockey season, probably not so much. You're also making the assumption that all routes run on time.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There's people from all over the GTA who go to sports games downtown.

That's true. They don't all take public transit though. When I lived in York Region, I'd drive to the subway (Yorkdale or Finch) and ride the rocket downtown. When I lived in Waterloo Region, I would drive downtown and park near the sports venue. Why? It was considerably faster to drive downtown than to get to the nearest subway park n' ride and take the subway by at least 30-40 minutes. If I had 2 other people with me, it was also cheaper to drive and park downtown than for all of us to take the subway.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In Toronto, the vast majority of trips require multiple transfers,

I doubt that is true. I'll agree that Subway transfers are negligible, but I'd have serious doubts that many people endure more than 2 bus or streetcar transfers.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

On game nights, you can bet your right arm the city will be maximizing frequency on the LRT and on the bus routes that connect them to suburban park and rides.

That may well be the case, and would probably be necessary to encourage people to use transit. But what if you are more than 1 bus route away from an LRT stop?

I think what lrt's friend is trying to point out is that not everybody would be able to access Lebreton Flats via transit in a satisfactory way. If it takes 60 min to get there by transit and 20 min by car, what would you do? Having the arena in a central location served by LRT will be immensely beneficial to some fans and a gigantic PITA to others.

[waterloowarrior]

By the time the arena would be built, you'd be able to have transferless park and ride trips from Place D'Orleans, Bowesville, Leitrim, Baseline, and Greenboro, ... not to mention lots of stations have plenty of nearby street parking.

There would still be 400 series buses. As others mentioned, it will also be easier to grab a beer before the game, so others will come from work, a friends house, or walk from Little Italy or Hintonburg. Plenty of people will park far away from the site and walk, reducing traffic near the arena.

[ehlow]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of moving the arena to Lebreton Flats, but we need to look at this from all angles, and I am saying the LRT plan is not as supportive of the hockey fan market as most people think. Even with the completion of Phase 2 of the Confederation Line, there is only one significant Park n Ride lot at Place d'Orleans.

People cannot park in shopping centre parking lots. You will get towed. There are warning signs to that affect. The other lots mostly depend on the limitations of the O-Train. As I said, even doubling trains requires another reconstruct, and we have seen how long that takes, let alone double tracking which will shut down the line for another year or two. None of that is even part of Phase 2.

We also need to get past the anti-suburban bias. The suburbs is where the bulk of Ottawa Senators fans live. If we move the arena to Lebreton Flats, we need make sure that the fans can get there in an efficient manner or they won't buy tickets.

Let me tell you that the success of the Lansdowne transit plan is about direct service. People will NOT transfer at 10 pm. I am a football season ticket holder. I live in the inner suburbs and I used transit to every game this season. The only reason why I did that amongst thousands of other fans is because the service is direct. If I have to transfer, I will drive. No ifs ands or buts. I won't apologize for that. My time is important especially when I have to work the next day. There was very little direct transit service in the old days to football games and very few football fans took transit. Direct service is the key to get buy in.

This is not Toronto or Montreal or New York where millions of people have access to a downtown arena by subway. You can bet that very few people travel to the ACC from Mississauga or Oshawa. The large size of the market allows that. Ottawa's market needs to attract fans from every part of the city.

I am sorry but I say it as I see it. I can easily take the O-Train to a game at Lebreton but I am not going to wait an hour to get on a train.

Again, I like the idea of moving the arena downtown but our transit planning needs significant improvement over the current plans to support it.

So build a parking garage at the new stadium. Problem solved.

I'm a Toronto guy, but there must already be parking garages in downtown Ottawa near the new arena, no?

People from Toronto get to the ACC in a variety of ways. The subway carries a huge amount obviously, but the arena is also right beside the main GO train hub, with GO trains & buses going all across the GTA, and of course some people drive, some walk, so bike.

Also I'm assuming that the people who work downtown could just walk to the new arena (or take the LRT a couple of stops) from their offices after work.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Horus

Doesn't the route frequency drop in the evening? So by 10pm and beyond, you could be waiting longer, at a cold, dark (windy/snowy) bus stop on the side of a dark street for how long? Multiple transfers aren't as bad when the weather is good, but during hockey season, probably not so much. You're also making the assumption that all routes run on time.

Ya, but we're talking about people using suburban park and rides like Fallowfield and Trim. Bus routes to those places are frequent at all hours of the day. Heck, the 95 to Place D'Orleans & Trim, even now, runs every 8 minutes until one in the morning. And if the city can now currently run massive legions of 400-series buses to CTC, they can certainly run increased frequencies on those key routes to suburban park and rides on game nights in the hypothetical future world of a downtown arena.

And every single on of the suburban park and rides will have a direct route to the Confederation Line. People aren't going to be transferring train to bus to bus to bus just to get home to Eagleson or Strandherd. And given the nature of the local route network today, where every route connects with the Transitway, I highly doubt there would be any part of the city that doesn't have a direct bus to an LRT station.

[ehlow]

Also Ottawa: you are a big city and our nation's capital. As far as I know, all NHL stadiums in Canada are in the downtown of their city near a high capacity transit line (except maybe Winnipeg?). I don't think any have it way out of the city in the middle of farmers fields with only buses.

I just read that the new Ottawa LRT has 2-car 100m trains carrying 600 people each. That's pretty damn high capacity assuming regular rapid transit frequency. For comparison, the new Toronto Rocket subway trains carry 1100 people each. That seems like more than enough to handle the of people leaving a hockey game in a city the size of Ottawa (along with other modes of transit).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

By the time the arena would be built, you'd be able to have transferless park and ride trips from Place D'Orleans, Bowesville, Leitrim, Baseline, and Greenboro, ... not to mention lots of stations have plenty of nearby street parking.

There would still be 400 series buses. As others mentioned, it will also be easier to grab a beer before the game, so others will come from work, a friends house, or walk from Little Italy or Hintonburg. Plenty of people will park far away from the site and walk, reducing traffic near the arena.

This is a pretty important point. There will be plenty of park and ride options by the time this would be built. And there is certainly plenty of parking available downtown. It's not that bad a walk from the west side of downtown, and it would be a very easy ride on the LRT. Not to mention that fact that if parking is an issue, one could expect the private sector to step in and create spaces. Parking lots are pretty easy to put in place.

I'm also not sure where this assumption that most Sens fans live in the suburbs come from. I've never seen anything to suggest that is true. Two thirds of the city's population is inside the Greenbelt, and I would expect that the Sens fan base breaks down similarly.

There are relatively few areas that wouldn't have easy transit access to Lebreton, so that captures two thirds of the potential market. And part of the point of moving to a central location is to cater to those potential fans who refuse to hike out to Kanata. And I think it is pretty clear that there are a substantial number of people in that category.
.

[Mr.Flintstone]

I`m no expert but I think you guys might be underestimating our transit system to be. I've been to a sold out game at Camp Nou. If I can leave that place in 15 min with only two lines serving the area. I think Ottawa with the combination of LRT+O-train+Buses will do OK. Look are stadium like Anfield and Goodison Park 40k+ no train/subway.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

What's with your continued obsessive belief that double tracking will require a long shutdown? It won't.

You're wasting your time. I've been at it for at least five years now and our friend here has got sucked into City Hall's "It can't be done" mentality.

Again, in Toronto they've work on train lines far more extensive than simply adding another track (and yes, way more extensive than widening trenches and bridges and tunnels) with nothing more serious than the odd weekend shutdown and reduced speeds at times. Ottawa has chosen to shut down the O-Train during work because currently O-Train ridership falls so low during the summer that it's easy to do summer shutdowns (a full shutdown is cheaper than working around an active line). But the in future when ridership goes up with all the Carling station condos and the Bowesville extension, that will change and the city will start working around the line.

Besides the City's "shut it down" approach to just about any problem, they do seem to go about things in a very highway-construction-ish way. The idea of using a hopper car for anything along the line seems completely foreign to them. The City could buy Capital Railway an ancient locomotive, like, oh, say, this thing, for a few tens of thousands of dollars or this for a couple hundred thousand or even this for $25k OBO and use that to push a couple of cars back and forth for use in maintenance and upgrading rather than having to send dump trucks and whatnot out onto the line. We're talking less than the cost of one freaking 40' bus here and I'm sure there's a bunch of disgruntled ex-OCR folks kicking about who'd love to tool around with such stuff if you need someone to operate it.

Anyway, sorry, wrong thread, really.