Halifax Stadium Discussion

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Could you tell em how many buses serve these two locations?

Each has one route directly servicing it, each of which operates at a 30 minute frequency 7 days a week (exception being the 51 which services Shannon Park, which is 60 minute service on Sundays)
However as has been said, HRM would almost certainly run shuttle services during events, no matter where it's located. They do for the concerts on the Common, they do for things like the Air Show, Tall Ships festivals, etc.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Would you say that it is as easy to get to Shannon Park and Exhibition Park from anywhere in the HRM as it would be to get to the West Mall or Mainland Commons?

Hold on a second my eager friend, I never said Exhibition Park is easy to get to, in fact I find it quite a drag to drive out there. It's in the middle of nowhere, I agreed with you on that.
Shannon Park on the other hand I would say is easier to get to than your two examples, the Mainland Commons or West End Mall, if travelling by car, which I believe the majority will be using no matter where the stadium is located. Shannon Park is just on the Dartmouth side of the MacKay Bridge, a four lane span, and is adjacent to highway 111 which can easily bring people in from outside of the metro area, via highways 102 and 107, as well as Victoria Road for folks coming in from along the 101.
The only thing needed is a reconfiguration of the on/off ramps by the toll booths, however in my opinion that's a needed upgrade reglardless of what gets built at Shannon Park.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I know you are being a smart-aleck, but why not give some real input on good sites for a stadium?

Smart aleck? What is your problem anyway? I'm not allowed to disagree with your opinion without being called a smart aleck? Maybe you need to step back and take a breather. We're all here for the same reasons, to get a stadium built in Halifax. Personal attacks don't advance anyone's position.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Smart aleck? What is your problem anyway? I'm not allowed to disagree with your opinion without being called a smart aleck? Maybe you need to step back and take a breather. We're all here for the same reasons, to get a stadium built in Halifax. Personal attacks don't advance anyone's position.

My problem is that you only answer the questions that you feel support your argument. I would like to see a stadium built that will succeed and have as many events a year as possible. On the other hand I wouldn't want to see a stadium built in a poor location that Halifax will be stuck with for decades. I asked a couple of other questions - 1) will a stadium at Shannon Park encourage Dalhousie University to get back into CIS football and 2) what do people do at Shannon Park while they are waiting for shuttle buses to pick them up?

You seem to see the importance of mass transportation but putting a stadium at Shannon Park is contrary to that concept.

You have two points of view that are completely opposite. One is that SMU Stadium should be renovated and used for the CFL and the other is a stadium at Shannon Park. Which one do you think is the best choice?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You have two points of view that are completely opposite. One is that SMU Stadium should be renovated and used for the CFL and the other is a stadium at Shannon Park. Which one do you think is the best choice?

Neither, as they are both poor location choices.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Neither, as they are both poor location choices.

Couldn't Halifax put a stadium at the Halifax Mainland Commons? It isn't as remote as Exhibition Park, it is owned by the city and it has some existing parking at the new Canada Winter Games facility. It is also close enough to Dalhousie University that they might consider using it if they re-enter the CIS. Although shopping and restaurants aren't in the immediate area, there is the Bayers Lake shopping area across the 102. This wouldn't be my first choice but it is not a bad location (it is certainly in a growing area). I would really like to see a stadium built in the West Mall area but looking at the Google maps, I don't know where it could go.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I asked a couple of other questions - 1) will a stadium at Shannon Park encourage Dalhousie University to get back into CIS football and 2) what do people do at Shannon Park while they are waiting for shuttle buses to pick them up?

1. Dalhousie has a field of their own, just as SMU does. Do you really think SMU is going to abandon its' football program if a stadium is built off campus?
2. They stand there and wait, same thing you would do if you're waiting for a bus anywhere else in the city. You're not likely to write a novel or compose a concerto while you're waiting for a bus.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You seem to see the importance of mass transportation but putting a stadium at Shannon Park is contrary to that concept.

How? It doesn't matter where in HRM the stadium goes, transit will be provided to shuttle folks to and from. Whether it's on or off the peninsula has no impact on that.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

You have two points of view that are completely opposite. One is that SMU Stadium should be renovated and used for the CFL and the other is a stadium at Shannon Park. Which one do you think is the best choice?

Is there something wrong with you, or are you trying to act like an idiot? If you haven't noticed, we've been suggesting A LOT of different options for stadium locations, but they're all just that, options. I was unaware that I am limited to only one suggestion for a location. You yourself have mentioned a handful of options that you think would be good, were you aware of your own 'one suggestion per person' limit?

[fenwick16]

Is there something wrong with you, or are you trying to act like an idiot? If you haven't noticed, we've been suggesting A LOT of different options for stadium locations, but they're all just that, options. I was unaware that I am limited to only one suggestion for a location. You yourself have mentioned a handful of options that you think would be good, were you aware of your own 'one suggestion per person' limit?

Let's start with this point first since you like to answer in point form. You do seem to have a problem since you are again resorting to name calling. Previously I mentioned Shannon park as my 5th choice after you asked people to state their site preference in order and even downloaded an image to that site and you called it inconsistent (I believe that was the word, I won't waste my time going back to read it). So by your own standards of evaluation it is inconsistent.

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

1. Dalhousie has a field of their own, just as SMU does. Do you really think SMU is going to abandon its' football program if a stadium is built off campus?

The Dalhousie field hardly has enough room for the entire field let alone any spectators. Is this really an acceptable football location to you? This is their field location - http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8...28,-63.590348&spn=0.002706,0.008256&z=18

I don't know if SMU will abandon their football program (Dalhousie did many years ago), they just won't use a stadium at Shannon Park for the Uteck Bowl Games nor would they likely use if for a Vanier Cup.

2. They stand there and wait, same thing you would do if you're waiting for a bus anywhere else in the city. You're not likely to write a novel or compose a concerto while you're waiting for a bus.

How? It doesn't matter where in HRM the stadium goes, transit will be provided to shuttle folks to and from. Whether it's on or off the peninsula has no impact on that.

As usual, this is another one of your flippant remarks made without any thought. Usually a bus stop might have a few or maybe even a dozen people waiting. It isn't going to have a few thousand waiting to be shuttled. Do you think that many people will be picked up in a matter of minutes? PS: At a sports event most people will be leaving at about the same time which makes it different than other events such as an airshow. If there is something to do in the stadium neighbourhood then people can stagger their departure time by doing things such as going to restaurants.

Your statement - "It doesn't matter where in HRM the stadium goes, transit will be provided to shuttle folks to and from." Doesn't it matter how many events a stadium will host? It isn't just getting people to the events, it is also getting events for a stadium in the first place.


I am done responding to your remarks. You have shown that it is pointless.

[wespidel]

Sue Utech has been constantly running down Mayor Kelly every chance she gets on 95.7 and CBC Main Street radio and to be totally honest it`s discussing and shows zero class as a councillor.

Now she is sucking -up to the Mayor because she wants her 10,000 permanent seat stadium for Saint Mary`s because that is what it will be.

This will be a disgrace and an embarrassment to me as a citzen and taxpayer and I will leave this city and move to Moncton NB because if this happens Halifax will never need or get a CFL model stadium in the right location to expand to 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup and major concerts.

At Saint Mary`s you can not build a 25 to 30 thousand seat permanent which can be expanded to 45 to 50 thousand, it`s impossible and those are the facts and if Moncton expand their stadium to 28,000 and get a CFL franchise Halifax will never have a need to build a major stadium period and those are the facts. Moncton will own the Maritime market period.

This is a joke and an embarrassment to the people of Halifax and an emabarrassment to a city the size of Halifax that is supposely the larger city in the Atlantic region by far. I`m not impressed, it`s a disgrace!

[wespidel]

Mayor is done is homework and is on top of his game in leading the stadium project forward. He said it`s not if Halifax stadium gets a stadium, it`s when!

Mayor Kelly is very seriuos and he has been working on stadium designs and not just the one that was proposed for the Dec. 24th deadline that was posted on this site from Events NS. Mayor Kelly said that the final design and size of stadium and location has not been decided so what I take from that is that the Dec.24th Events NS design was the bare minium 1,200 per/seat stadium just to get a bid in before the deadline.
Mayor Kelly said that he`s looking at a stadium from 1,200 to 2,200 per/seat range plus the cost of land over and above the per/seat cost which is only related to the stadium itself. He also said that the stadium will have permanent washrooms and concessions and other necessary features depending on the size of the stadium but it would not be 150 million plus dollar stadium like the CommonWeath Games proposed stadium.

Mayor Kelly also said that he wants to hear from the public and apparently he said, that hopefully in the next two weeks there will be a open public meeting on what the public would like to see Halifax have for a stadium.

Mayor Kelly is working hard on this stadium project and definitely wants to involve the public in relation to size of the stadium, features, and location.

Please everyone that wants to see a moderate modestly priced 25 thousand plus permanent seat major stadium built in Halifax in the right location where it can be permanently expanded and or temporaryly expanded to 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup and major concerts and not a mickey mouse Sue Utech Special stadium built at Saint Mary`s, you better attend and support a CFL style sizable moderate stadium or that`s what Halifax will get a, Sue Utech Special and if that happens we are dead in the water and never will never have a major stadium nor a CFL team, a Grey Cup Game or even need a major stadium for Halifax because Moncton will jump on huge mistake as an opportunity to expand their stadium and grab a CFL franchise and control the total market in the Maritimes and Halifax will be buried!

Moncton is praying and hoping Halifax makes the same mistake they did and builds a mickey mouse tiny little 9,500 permanent seat stadium at Saint Mary`s which they have proposed for the World Womens`s Cup Soccer event
so Moncton can move forward on their plans to expand their stadium to meet the CFL model stadium demand in order to qualify for a CFL franchise.

So please get the word out for as much support we can get to promote a CFL model sizable stadium for Halifax in a loctaion that it can be expanded for bigger major events. It`s extremely crucial or we are done!

[fenwick16]

There was an article on halifaxnewsnet.ca written by Mayor Kelly - http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/Opinion/196...able-gardens-and-getting-lots-of-sleep/1. I think that Mayor Kelly is doing all that he can to see that a stadium is built. I hope that there will be time to find a proper solution. It won't be easy, since a design will have to be finalized and a location selected. Based on the debates on this forum, I don't think that it will be easy to come to a consensus.

One of Mayor Kelly's resolutions:

"· I resolve to work with all potential partners to investigate the feasibility of building a new stadium in HRM. Council is committed to exploring the opportunity of being a host city if Canada’s bid to stage the 2015 Women's World Cup of Soccer succeeds. If everything falls into place, we’ll need a stadium for our share of the games. Stay tuned!"

[MaritimeCFLFan]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Mayor is done is homework and is on top of his game in leading the stadium project forward. He said it`s not if Halifax stadium gets a stadium, it`s when!

Mayor Kelly is very seriuos and he has been working on stadium designs and not just the one that was proposed for the Dec. 24th deadline that was posted on this site from Events NS. Mayor Kelly said that the final design and size of stadium and location has not been decided so what I take from that is that the Dec.24th Events NS design was the bare minium 1,200 per/seat stadium just to get a bid in before the deadline.
Mayor Kelly said that he`s looking at a stadium from 1,200 to 2,200 per/seat range plus the cost of land over and above the per/seat cost which is only related to the stadium itself. He also said that the stadium will have permanent washrooms and concessions and other necessary features depending on the size of the stadium but it would not be 150 million plus dollar stadium like the CommonWeath Games proposed stadium.

Mayor Kelly also said that he wants to hear from the public and apparently he said, that hopefully in the next two weeks there will be a open public meeting on what the public would like to see Halifax have for a stadium.

Mayor Kelly is working hard on this stadium project and definitely wants to involve the public in relation to size of the stadium, features, and location.

Please everyone that wants to see a moderate modestly priced 25 thousand plus permanent seat major stadium built in Halifax in the right location where it can be permanently expanded and or temporaryly expanded to 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup and major concerts and not a mickey mouse Sue Utech Special stadium built at Saint Mary`s, you better attend and support a CFL style sizable moderate stadium or that`s what Halifax will get a, Sue Utech Special and if that happens we are dead in the water and never will never have a major stadium nor a CFL team, a Grey Cup Game or even need a major stadium for Halifax because Moncton will jump on huge mistake as an opportunity to expand their stadium and grab a CFL franchise and control the total market in the Maritimes and Halifax will be buried!

Moncton is praying and hoping Halifax makes the same mistake they did and builds a mickey mouse tiny little 9,500 permanent seat stadium at Saint Mary`s which they have proposed for the World Womens`s Cup Soccer event
so Moncton can move forward on their plans to expand their stadium to meet the CFL model stadium demand in order to qualify for a CFL franchise.

So please get the word out for as much support we can get to promote a CFL model sizable stadium for Halifax in a loctaion that it can be expanded for bigger major events. It`s extremely crucial or we are done!

Could you please supply me with a link to this radio interview? I like to post information on the CFL.CA site as well to try and keep CFL fans informed of whats going on in Halifax in regards to a possible stadium for Halifax. Thanks.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Sue Utech has been constantly running down Mayor Kelly every chance she gets on 95.7 and CBC Main Street radio and to be totally honest it`s discussing and shows zero class as a councillor.

Now she is sucking -up to the Mayor because she wants her 10,000 permanent seat stadium for Saint Mary`s because that is what it will be.

This will be a disgrace and an embarrassment to me as a citzen and taxpayer and I will leave this city and move to Moncton NB because if this happens Halifax will never need or get a CFL model stadium in the right location to expand to 45 to 50 thousand for a Grey Cup and major concerts.

At Saint Mary`s you can not build a 25 to 30 thousand seat permanent which can be expanded to 45 to 50 thousand, it`s impossible and those are the facts and if Moncton expand their stadium to 28,000 and get a CFL franchise Halifax will never have a need to build a major stadium period and those are the facts. Moncton will own the Maritime market period.

This is a joke and an embarrassment to the people of Halifax and an emabarrassment to a city the size of Halifax that is supposely the larger city in the Atlantic region by far. I`m not impressed, it`s a disgrace!

I have losing a bit of respect for Sue Lately. Its seems no matter what Kelly does she is against good or bad and I have not been the the biggest fan of mayor Kelly but I have gained a bit more respect for him lately.

[wespidel]

Mayor Kelly was on 95.7 HFX. talk show this morning

[wespidel]

I think a lot of people have gained a lot of respect for Mayor Kelly, he has a masters in Business and he is very capable of putting a business plan in place and working with the necessary partners to make it happen. He`s been working 70 to 90 hrs a week during the Holidays and I know by all his work lately on the stadium, he certainly has been putting in the time to make it work. I also have the utmost respect for him as well as our Mayor. He could break a record if he gets relected in 2012 and he deserves that record and I and many other people I have talked that I know agree with me and will be voting for him too regardless who runs against him. If Mayor Kelly delivers on a CFL model stadium in the most suitable location he will be very much praised for making the right choice of a stadium for Halifax and for our future.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Mayor Kelly also said that he wants to hear from the public and apparently he said, that hopefully in the next two weeks there will be a open public meeting on what the public would like to see Halifax have for a stadium.

Mayor Kelly is working hard on this stadium project and definitely wants to involve the public in relation to size of the stadium, features, and location.

I can say for a fact that they (the Mayor and several Councillors) are interested in hearing from the public. There are Councillors who read this forum and are interested in knowing what kind of stadium people would like to see in the Halifax area.

The $2000 dollar per seat cost sounds realistic for a basic design. For comparison, the replacement cost of the Metro Centre would likely be at least $7,000 - $8,000 per seat for a 10,000 seat arena (but it would be completely enclosed with heated concourses).

A lot of decisions will have to be made based on public input.

Some examples that I see:

1) Counterbalanced folding seats (which naturally fold up when not in use) throughout a new stadium would be ideal in terms of comfort and row access, but it might not be possible cost-wise. Some types of seats such as the non-folding backed type will be cheaper but will limit access width to the rows of seats (since they take more of the row width). If non-folding seats are chosen then personally, I think that non-backed aluminum benches would be best since they will require less row width than backed benches (it will make it easier for people to get to their seats).

2) Will the concourses be open-air or totally enclosed and heated. If open-air then just the washrooms could be heated. Having the concourses enclosed and heated will add other costs such as a requirement for sufficient ventilation. However, if having totally enclosed, heated concourses was economically viable then it would be ideal.

3) I think that a partial roof is very important. In order to keep this roof cost down, what if a few of the upper seats were partially obstructed by internal columns? Like in the newly renovated Comiskey Park (they actually added columns that weren't there originally when the Park opened in 1991) see below. They have renamed it US Cellular Field. I saw this baseball park from the highway before it was renovated, and it looked like a rather modern but nondescript ballpark (2nd image). Looking at the renovated retro version (1st image), it looks much better. (I actually think that the columns in the seating area adds to its appeal).

This was posted by Keith_P on January 3 2010 from a photo by DiggerODell of baseballfever.com. This is the current renovated version (1st image)


This is what it looked liked before it was renovated (they actually made it look like an old-fashion ballpark, in the major leagues this retro trend started with Camden Yards in Baltimore which is one that I attended a baseball game in, and it was an amazing experience, it gave the feeling of what it might have been like to be at a baseball game 70 years ago).
(source: http://www.planet99.com/chicago/tour/comiskey_park_us_cellular_field.html )

[halifaxboyns]

I've tried to keep up with all the chatter over the holidays and now that I'm back in Calgary - I've had a chance to read some, looking good so far.

I know the location debate rages on and as I said previously when I was in Halifax for the holidays I kept passing the forum site and thinking - maybe someday? But that's just me (and possibly fenwick).

The challenge with location for HRM is that unless you build it in the middle of the harbour, there really isn't a location that is challenged for being 'out of the way'. I haven't kept track of who exactly said what, but someone pointed out that the majority would probably use vehicles - which is probably reasonable at first. But I think with more use of the facility with things like soccer or football, you could expand transit service to be included in tickets. I go back to the comments I made way back when I visited Edmonton and happen to be on the LRT during a football game at Commonwealth stadium. The park and ride lot at the very south station was empty when I got there, but in the half an hour I poked around reach about 1/2 capacity and train frequency increased. I suspect that if you setup shuttle bus services from designated transit stations - people would use park and ride lots and commute. Probably a small number compared to cars at first, but if you include transit in the ticket price (over time) I could easily see the split getting up into 40 to 50% range (or even higher).

Exhibition park has the benefit of being out of the way to avoid C.A.V.E dwellers (citizens against virtually everything) - but I don't think that should be a consideration. Many of the people who are 'against' everything have reached a point where they are just not taken seriously because they can't voice a valid argument. That being said, I'm not opposed to Exhibition Park or Shannon or even Dartmouth Crossing (near the new field site).

My only concern moving forward is getting the project built and then making sure that if the city ever reaches a point where an LRT/subway or other rapid transit form is built - it's in a location that is not so out of the way that it couldn't be added into the network. But that's really far reaching...probably 15 years down the road.

[wespidel]

Mayor Kelly did say today that the stadium would have a partial roof!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Mayor Kelly did say today that the stadium would have a partial roof!

Thanks for all the information Wespidel. Was the 95.7 talk show also on the internet? (I wonder if there is a copy of the show somewhere).

Here is the partial roof on the Moncton Stadium. I think that it looks quite impressive If only they had of extended the number of rows on this concrete side and the length. Then it would have looked even more impressive.

(source: http://www.cfl.ca/article/tickets-to-touchdown-atlantic-sold-out )

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

You don't think we can afford a stadium before you've seen any financial information at all? And you wonder why people compared you to Bruce DeVenne the other day...

Also if 25,000 seats is considered a Lexus or Maybach stadium, what would 60,000 seats be? Or 75,000 seats?
I would consider 25k seats to be more of a Civic or Corolla stadium. Moncton's stadium would be like the Toyota Yaris or Honda Fit stadium.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on...inancial-choices-in-2011/article1853657/

Look at the debt to GDP stat. If all you can afford on your salary is a Yaris, than power to you. If all you can afford is to take a bus, get a bus pass.

Nova Scotia and HRM are great places to live, there is a lot about this place I love. That being said, we are not living in a big city, and we are not living in a place with a healthy balance sheet.

All the evidence in this thread and elsewhere says that a 30,000 seat stadium starts at 75-100 million and could go to 400 million (new Mosaic in Regina will cost over $420 million). Many posters here seem to feel anything less in terms of seats is a waste of time. A good benchmark for maintenance and renos on a building is 2-4% of capital cost, every year, to maintain it.

So a 100 million stadium will cost 2-4 million to MAINTAIN every year. Let alone if it will need a subsidy to operate every time its open, security, etc, etc.

Then there is the CFL team. At least Fenwick is talking private sector for that, but I suspect that like large concerts, a lot of you might shrug at the idea of a directing further tax dollars into the team to keep it solvent.

I am totally in favor of a modest and affordable step toward some kind of stadium that can host CFL with the temporary seating if the numbers are there, but I think that it is pretty clear that the minute you start talking about
30,000 permanent seats we are probably outside of the realm of what a city this size and a province this in debt can afford.

That said, if someone really thinks that the team could fly, how about you start taking deposits into a trust fund, see if you can get anywhere near the numbers that are being thrown around here. I would like to believe it, but it is a lot of money to get out of this community.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on...inancial-choices-in-2011/article1853657/

Thanks for the link - it is very interesting. Actually some of this data looks quite good. The following looks quite healthy.

Highest deficit-to-GDP (2010-11):
1. Ontario - 3.1 per cent
2. New Brunswick - 2.7 per cent
3. Quebec - 1.5 per cent
4. PEI - 1.1 per cent
5. British Columbia - 0.9 per cent

Lowest deficit-to-GDP (2010-11)
1. Newfoundland - 0
2. Alberta - 0 (after using its “sustainability fund” to erase the deficit)
3. Saskatchewan - 0.1 per cent
4. Nova Scotia - 0.6 per cent
5. Manitoba - 0.8 per cent

I think that to be fair regarding the Nova Scotia economy, the debt to GDP has also been declining over the past several years.

Highest debt-to-GDP (2010-11)
1. Quebec - 48.3 per cent
2. Nova Scotia - 39.6 per cent
3. Ontario - 36 per cent
4. New Brunswick - 33.5 per cent
5. Newfoundland - 35.2 per cent

As long as Nova Scotia keeps its yearly deficit increase under its yearly increase in GDP then the debt-to-GDP will continue to decline.

As an analogy, I think we would all be happy with a Toyota Yaris (Sedan). Mayor Kelly is promoting a $1200 - $2200 per seat stadium. At $2000 per seat for a 25,000 seat stadium then that would be $50 million.

PS: It seems like quite a bit can be built if the stadium is constructed in a similar manner to a multilevel parking garage. The 589 car MetroPark was built in 2002 for $10.3 million (it is at the high end for multilevel parking garages in terms of cost per car). Interestingly, the project manager (The Hardman Group) was also the project manager for the Halifax Metro Centre - http://www.hardmangroup.ca/development/dev_metro.html .

(source: http://www.hardmangroup.ca/propertymgt/property3b.html )

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

All the evidence in this thread and elsewhere says that a 30,000 seat stadium starts at 75-100 million and could go to 400 million (new Mosaic in Regina will cost over $420 million).

This sounds like a Chicken Little routine.

In reality the process will start with a budget and it probably won't even be $75M, let alone $400M. Nobody is proposing a gold-plated stadium.